Oscar Robertson vs. Larry Bird

[jalengreen]

For peak, prime, career. How large is the gap?

[70sFan]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

[dygaction]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

[Colbinii]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

[Owly]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

In addition to above see also:
Martin Taragano (1993)
Peter C Bjarkman (1995)
Athlon (1998)
AP (1999)
Slam (2003, 2009, 2011)

[70sFan]

Yeah, I don't think having Oscar ahead of Bird is that rare. I am certainly in the minority, but I am not alone on that statement.

[dygaction]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

I meant media or voted rankings. What you listed are personal rankings and I have seen Curry at #1.

[Colbinii]

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

I meant media or voted rankings. What you listed are personal rankings and I have seen Curry at #1.

Please see Owly's post above if you would like to see media rankings.

I personally don't care much for the hodge-podge media rankings but if you put stock in them, all the power to you.

[capfan33]

Interesting. I have never seen any ranking having Oscar ahead of Bird...

-snip-
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Oscar
11. Magic - career value a bit lower than this group for me, but one of the very few players I give a bit of a boost for more longevity than he actually achieved due to outside circumstance. Strong contender for offensive GOAT in his prime.

12. Kobe - solid longevity, bit lower peak than most above, fairly easy archetype to build around imo.
13. Dirk - best offensive big man of alltime, pretty consistent greatness, some playoff struggles early/mid career.
14. Bird - could've been a tier up, but poor longevity and some injury issues/playoff struggles.
-snip-

I will preface this by saying I have #10 [Magic] through #16 [Kobe] in a similar tier.

11. Dirk Nowitzki - Strong and long prime, playoff woes keep him from being higher but he was relatively strong, all-time great offensive player and a true offensive anchor similar to the best point guards of all-time

12. Oscar Robertson - Magic before Magic. Dominant perimeter player in a league dominated by big men moreso than ever. The first true "Offensive Catalyst" and a long prime. Difficult player to rank due to limited availability of information compared to the data era but I feel comfortable with him being in the same tier as Magic.

13. Karl Malone - Insane longevity, lowest peak of the 12 ahead of him and not a tremendous playoff performer but his teams were limited in terms of offensive help surrounding him. Strong and good defender with his strength make somewhere between Dirk and the best bigs above him defensively. Not someone I would categorize as an "offensive catalyst", rather a very crucial cog in an offensive system.

14. Larry Bird - Terrific offensive player with portability never seen prior to his arrival in the NBA. Weaker longevity than Dirk/Malone and a short defensive peak/prime. Some playoff woes [and playoff moments which were spectacular]. Another offensive minded player who is definitely a catalyst to an offensive system.

I am projecting Curry to end his career at #10 or so.

11. Oscar - very steady offensive juggernaut. Actually people talk about Nash, but what if Nash were a super triple double machine on top. Oscar did much of the same in his era, anchoring strong offenses for a long time.
12. Bird - Most view Bird as guaranteed top 8 or so, though I am a little down on him in the playoffs, he was great, but not necessarily as great as someone like Shaq, Hakeem, or even Magic. Still obviously an all timer in terms of how important he was to the league for over a decade.

I meant media or voted rankings. What you listed are personal rankings and I have seen Curry at #1.

Oscar was actually a pretty common/popular GOAT pick before MJ came along. And to be clear I'm not that high on him but I actually think that ranking him above Bird would've been quite common 30 years ago.

[No-more-rings]

I’ve always went with Bird, but not really sure how I’d justify it aside from rings and narratives. May be one I want to re-evaluate because Bird seems less consistent in the postseason.

[SNPA]

Bird top ten at lowest, top five more accurate IMO. Oscar is in the 10-15 range.

[Cavsfansince84]

Bird is one of those guys that the myth of him is probably slightly greater than he actually was. Mainly because his defensive reputation is probably overrated and his efficiency as a scorer wasn't really there until about 83 or 84. Then I think the injuries and his play style made him wear down a bit by the time the playoffs came around which is reflected in them. I definitely see arguments for putting Oscar ahead.

[migya]

Definitely close, these two are alltime greats. Fact is Oscar gets underrated because his team's weren't good and he didn't win much. If he was in Bird's place, on the Celtics is what I mean, he'd have won as much as Bird and would considered top ten.

[DQuinn1575]

Definitely close, these two are alltime greats. Fact is Oscar gets underrated because his team's weren't good and he didn't win much. If he was in Bird's place, on the Celtics is what I mean, he'd have won as much as Bird and would considered top ten.

If Oscar had won 3 NBA titles in Cincinnati and then one in Milwaukee, he would have been considered the GOAT before Jordan, and there would have been arguments if Jordan was greater than Oscar.

[Doctor MJ]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Pretty reasonable. I think I've always had Magic & Bird over Oscar & West, but it's very much debatable and maybe someday I'll switch.

[70sFan]

For peaks, I might go with Bird as his defense and off-ball play was probably slightly more impactful than Oscar's efficiency and playmaking. It's very close though, 1962-65 Oscar vs 1984-87 Bird is a great discussion.

For primes, I actually go with Oscar. Robertson has 11 years long prime (1961-71) and outside of 1968, he basically didn't miss any games during that period and was the best offensive player in the league for a decade. Bird's prime (1980-88 + 1990) is one year shorter and I don't value 1980-83 + 1990 Bird nearly as high as some people do. I think I'd rank all but 1970 and 1971 Oscar seasons over these.

For careers, I have Oscar one spot ahead of Bird (#11 vs #12). As I said, I think Oscar had a bit better prime and his post prime seasons (1972-74 vs 1991-92) certainly gives slim edge as well if anything.

Pretty reasonable. I think I've always had Magic & Bird over Oscar & West, but it's very much debatable and maybe someday I'll switch.

I have all of them within the same tier in terms of actual basketball ability at their peaks, but I rank Magic/Oscar higher than Bird and especially West because I think their primes were more complete (fairly low on pre-1984 Bird and lack of 1989, durability in West's case).

To be honest, I don't mind any order as long as it has rational fundamentals.

[jalengreen]

Definitely close, these two are alltime greats. Fact is Oscar gets underrated because his team's weren't good and he didn't win much. If he was in Bird's place, on the Celtics is what I mean, he'd have won as much as Bird and would considered top ten.

If Oscar had won 3 NBA titles in Cincinnati and then one in Milwaukee, he would have been considered the GOAT before Jordan, and there would have been arguments if Jordan was greater than Oscar.

I've even heard of sources that already did consider him the GOAT before Jordan

IIRC John Salley told a story about Jordan saying Oscar was the GOAT around the time people started giving Jordan that title. John Wooden reportedly had Oscar #1 before Bird, West reportedly said Oscar was the greatest player he had ever played against. And he was voted #2 for AP Basketball Player of the Century behind only Jordan (not sure if it factored in college career but kareem was 7th so i'd think not?).

[kcktiny]

Bird is one of those guys that the myth of him is probably slightly greater than he actually was. Mainly because his defensive reputation is probably overrated

You think so? From 1979-80 to 1987-88 (9 seasons) the Boston Celtics were the league's 2nd best team defensively (103.1 pts/100poss allowed). Only Milwaukee was better.

Here's their players minutes played during that time:

min player
027371 Larry Bird
020882 Robert Parish
019399 Kevin McHale
014313 Cedric Maxwell
014254 Danny Ainge
013976 Dennis Johnson
009662 Nate Archibald
008152 Gerald Henderson
006429 Chris Ford
005810 M.L. Carr
005528 Rick Robey
032594 31 other players (no single player more than 4026 minutes)
-------------------------------
178370 Total Minutes

Bird alone played 15%-16% of the Celtics total minutes played. The first 11 players listed played 82% of their total minutes played.

Someone on that team had to be playing great defense - for a long time - for the Celtics to have been the 2nd best team defensively in the league over a long 9 year period.

If Bird was not an excellent or great defender, then who was such that they were as a team 2nd best on defense over 9 seasons?

I say that McHale, D.J., Parish, and Bird were all excellent defenders, for a long time, and that these 4 players are the primary reason why Boston was such a great team defensively over those 9 seasons.

[Cavsfansince84]

Bird alone played 15%-16% of the Celtics total minutes played. The first 11 players listed played 82% of their total minutes played.

Someone on that team had to be playing great defense - for a long time - for the Celtics to have been the 2nd best team defensively in the league over a long 9 year period.

If Bird was not an excellent or great defender, then who was such that they were as a team 2nd best on defense over 9 seasons?

I say that McHale, D.J., Parish, and Bird were all excellent defenders, for a long time, and that these 4 players are the primary reason why Boston was such a great team defensively over those 9 seasons.

I think its fairly accurate to say that DJ was something of a defensive specialist in his time with the Celtics and that McHale was probably the best defending 4 of his era or close to it. So ya I don't see why what you listed above is any sort of proof about Bird being a great defender. I think he was closer to average from about 85 on when the injuries started mounting. He had a good iq which helped him to make great anticipation plays sometimes but he was very slow for sf and had both McHale and Parish backing him up.

[kcktiny]

I think its fairly accurate to say that DJ was something of a defensive specialist in his time with the Celtics and that McHale was probably the best defending 4 of his era or close to it. So ya I don't see why what you listed above is any sort of proof about Bird being a great defender.

You aren't the 2nd best defensive team in the league over 9 straight years with just 2 players playing less than 1/5 of the team's total minutes played being excellent defenders. Try the math.

Someone other than D.J. (who played just 1/2 the minutes Bird played) and McHale (who played just 2/3 to 3/4 the minutes Bird played) had to have played excellent defense during those 9 years.

The only Celtic other than D.J. and McHale to make an all-defensive team during that time was BIrd, not once but three times (2nd team all-D from 1981-82 to 1983-84).