In your opinion, which season was LeBron at his peak?

[DatAsh]

2009 is his peak impact season.

I have 2017 as his best in terms of raising championship odds.

[dontcalltimeout]

I have no idea why 2012 is never mentioned ,

It was by far his best overall playoff run , he performed with legendary performances whenever the Heat were in danger (40/18/9 down 2-1 against the Pacers on the Road in game 4 and 45/15/5 down 3-2 against Celtics on the Road ) , was amazing defensively that year as well .


Add in the amount of pressure he faced that year and that makes 2012 even better .

People actually do mention 2012.... see the first three or four responses in this thread, for example.

For those who like 2013 (or at least 2013 and/or 2017), the 2012 playoff run is impressive but I think we also remember LeBron becoming a more complete player the following year.

He had ascended to complete mastery of the Heat offense, still had the post game, started slimming down so he regained some quickness/explosiveness (this trend would continue in 2014), and combined that a lethal outside shot (another thing he built on in 2014).

He was probably better defensively in 2012 (at the point of attack), but he and that whole team in 2013 would pick and choose their spots of maximum intensity / energy expenditure. By the all-star break, Bron started ramping up his defense and was looking like his old self. (If you remember this was the first yr where we had SportVu data and Zach Lowe reported on it for Grantland. The folks said LeBron was basically breaking it because his court coverage was impossible for anyone else).

[rolling]

It was the 2 championship years in Miami. He bulked up and played his natural position more which is power forward. I remember him dominating the Thunder in the post and off ball more than he usually would. Plus his defense was better then.

Ball monopolizing LeBron could put up better statzzz. But the whole point is to be the best player on your team and play a winning brand of basketball. So Miami chip LeBron is the best version of LeBron.

[rolling]

2013 was LeBron's most complete form. Outside shot, athleticism, post-up game, off-ball, experience and IQ

Yea. No other choice really. It's not about statz. It's about playing a winning brand of basketball.

[rolling]

I agree that LeBron has several peaks. It is difficult to sort out which of the peaks makes him most valuable because they are great in different ways.
2009 was LeBron with the greatest motor, he was just a physical force of nature. And for what it's worth the single time in his career where I thought his trajectory may put him ahead of MJ. It is strange that his prime was so well balanced in terms of overall effectiveness, yet we never saw him rise to a level above that raw dominance. We arguably never saw a peak LeBron in terms of this level of athlete and motor plus skill in the same way we did '91 MJ.

2013 was the best two way version of LeBron and the one i think i prefer overall. No weaknesses in his game. Less dominant offensively than 16 or 17 because he played on a more balanced team in terms of responsibility, but also because he still had occasional mental lapses.

2016 or 2017 would be LeBron at his mental/skill peak. LeBron seemed like he reached a zen like mastery of basketball here where as an individual, you couldn't contain his efforts. Take one thing away, he'll kill you somewhere else. Perfect floor IQ. Supreme confidence. Problem is that his athletic decline and motor started to become apparent towards the end of this.

If I want LeBron on a generic team where I know I'm going to have a more balanced offense and defense, basically not rely on one guy to be the system, I'd take 2013. 2013 is the most portable and the one I think that on average would experience the most success given random team selections in terms of offensive and defensive talent. 2016/17 I think monopolizes too much, and 2009 has exploitable weaknesses.

Excellent post. I agree the 2012 playoff version and the 2013 version was the best version of LeBron if I had to start a random team and wanted to maximize my chances of winning the title. Basically considering the only thing that truly matters I would take LeBron from the Miami title years.

I remember vividly, watching hulking, bulked version of LeBron letting Mario freaking Chalmers bring the ball up the court. And LeBron went into the post off ball and bruised his way and crammed the game down OKC's throats from the halfcourt. And I thought to myself, I like KD and OKC, but against this LeBron they just don't have a chance. None.

[SeniorWalker]

I agree that LeBron has several peaks. It is difficult to sort out which of the peaks makes him most valuable because they are great in different ways.
2009 was LeBron with the greatest motor, he was just a physical force of nature. And for what it's worth the single time in his career where I thought his trajectory may put him ahead of MJ. It is strange that his prime was so well balanced in terms of overall effectiveness, yet we never saw him rise to a level above that raw dominance. We arguably never saw a peak LeBron in terms of this level of athlete and motor plus skill in the same way we did '91 MJ.

2013 was the best two way version of LeBron and the one i think i prefer overall. No weaknesses in his game. Less dominant offensively than 16 or 17 because he played on a more balanced team in terms of responsibility, but also because he still had occasional mental lapses.

2016 or 2017 would be LeBron at his mental/skill peak. LeBron seemed like he reached a zen like mastery of basketball here where as an individual, you couldn't contain his efforts. Take one thing away, he'll kill you somewhere else. Perfect floor IQ. Supreme confidence. Problem is that his athletic decline and motor started to become apparent towards the end of this.

If I want LeBron on a generic team where I know I'm going to have a more balanced offense and defense, basically not rely on one guy to be the system, I'd take 2013. 2013 is the most portable and the one I think that on average would experience the most success given random team selections in terms of offensive and defensive talent. 2016/17 I think monopolizes too much, and 2009 has exploitable weaknesses.

Excellent post. I agree the 2012 playoff version and the 2013 version was the best version of LeBron if I had to start a random team and wanted to maximize my chances of winning the title. Basically considering the only thing that truly matters I would take LeBron from the Miami title years.

I remember vividly, watching hulking, bulked version of LeBron letting Mario freaking Chalmers bring the ball up the court. And LeBron went into the post off ball and bruised his way and crammed the game down OKC's throats from the halfcourt. And I thought to myself, I like KD and OKC, but against this LeBron they just don't have a chance. None.

Yeah that's basically how I felt.

For years I've been stuck between 2013 and 2009 LeBron as being the best actual version of him, not just theoretically. 2009 is convincing for some because I believe that year LeBron was very arguably, in terms of raw dominance, the most dominant face up perimeter player in NBA history. Even over prime MJ, I think 2009 LeBron in terms of purely his face up game had a strong argument over anyone. I used to call him the L train back then because he was like a freight train in transition, with still quick lateral mobility and of course monstrous size. Truly a freak like the NBA had possibly never seen before.

The ultimate difference however between 2009 and 2013 LeBron, as well as why I still consider 88-93 MJ better, is because at that point LeBron was mostly just a dominant face up/transition player, someone that will kill you if you just allow him to attack the rim constantly. He had just become "good" defensively, but by no means was he at the level he was in Miami where he could just wreck the entire opposing team while roaming. The chase blocks started this year but in quite a number of 1 on 1 matches lebron could still be easily blown by, as he was not quite as disciplined yet. Additionally, LeBron still had basically zero post game here. Rajon rondo was as good a defender on him in the low post at this point as a prime dwight Howard, and I'm trying not to exaggerate but I dont think it's far off. Mentally, it still would take him pretty much the entire Miami stint to get to a level of supreme confidence in which his opponent could not occasionally take him out of his game but even then he lacked important skills that would round him out as a complete player. He was so dominant that it almost didnt matter but in a given championship year, assuming his team made it to the round (his teams didnt) I would not have nearly the same confidence in him against elite teams with great discipline, as I would his 2013 version.

Compare this to 2013 who really only had one weakness...which was his own mind. Overthinking in "clutch" moments (skip Bayless, who I do find amusing, has made me hate this word in the nba). Not imposing himself on the game at will even though he's fully equipped to do so. I think it was game 6 of the 2013 spurs series but i remember chatting with my buddy about him back then, as both of us were shocked at watching lebron for a stretch seem almost frozen late in the game. It seemed like he couldn't decide what to do and we thought it was going to cost the Heat the series. It was shocking because LeBron was by far the best player on the floor. I just couldn't fathom why he would allow.himself to be stopped, but that's not how anxiety works....its not a logical thing.

2016-2018 LeBron, at least over this version, was far less likely to have a mental lapse like that at a critical moment. By then LeBron had proved to me that had reached that master level of confidence where he never seemed to doubt himself again. Yet I just dont think 2016-2018 lebron was as good a player overall. More polished offensively but clearly not as good an athlete and giving up far too much defense, especially by 18 which is definitely his most overrated year.

What I wish we got to see, is an earlier version of LeBron with his 16-18 mental mastery. This in my honest opinion was the primary thing that kept his peak/prime years a notch below MJ. If he'd had that, 11 never happens and I'm frankly.confident LeBron is maybe on MJ's side of the aisle as a near consensus #1 in the public. I could see him putting up crazy statlines while just mentally and physically torturing his opponents as well as picking his spots perfectly. The problem is this never merged together early enough for him. It did for MJ in 91 which resulted in basically perfect basketball...but by the time LeBron reached that mental peak, he'd clearly lost a step from his athletic peak and motor, as well.as defensively.

[Ainosterhaspie]

2013 for me. 2009 he had holes in his game that he fixed/minimized after the 2011 debacle. In 2013 he had stamina and explosiveness that had slipped by 2016 and got progressively worse from there.

From 2016 on he had to pick his spots in games, series and seasons. He had to not play to his full ability at times it was needed, because he had to save himself for more important moments. He couldn't get by guys like he once could and guys would out run him up and down the floor even when he was trying. That didn't happen before 2015. Improvements to his ability to dissect the game helped compensate for the physical decline, but overall I think he was more limited than in 2013.

2013 was the year where I think he just had the best balance of ridiculous athleticism with skills developed enough to hurt the opposition no matter what they did. They managed a 76 win pace for more than half a season once Chris Anderson came in and the roster finally had a good option at the five. That brief period was the only time we saw him with a well balanced team on both sides of the ball and they throttled the league. Then Wade got hurt and we never saw that again.

During that season he honed his efficiency to a razor sharp level. There was a six game stretch where he managed 30+ points on 60% shooting, something that had never been done if I remember right. He shot 40% from three for the season on good volume.

The Spurs tried to exploit his shooting and it almost worked, but then he decided fine, if you want me to take these shots I will. I can hit them. And he started doing that and carried the Heat to their last two wins. The team who had the best ability and most success exploiting his limitations failed, because they were gone. 2009 LeBron wouldn't have won that series.

[SeniorWalker]

2013 for me. 2009 he had holes in his game that he fixed/minimized after the 2011 debacle. In 2013 he had stamina and explosiveness that had slipped by 2016 and got progressively worse from there.

From 2016 on he had to pick his spots in games, series and seasons. He had to not play to his full ability at times it was needed, because he had to save himself for more important moments. He couldn't get by guys like he once could and guys would out run him up and down the floor even when he was trying. That didn't happen before 2015. Improvements to his ability to dissect the game helped compensate for the physical decline, but overall I think he was more limited than in 2013.

2013 was the year where I think he just had the best balance of ridiculous athleticism with skills developed enough to hurt the opposition no matter what they did. They managed a 76 win pace for more than half a season once Chris Anderson came in and the roster finally had a good option at the five. That brief period was the only time we saw him with a well balanced team on both sides of the ball and they throttled the league. Then Wade got hurt and we never saw that again.

During that season he honed his efficiency to a razor sharp level. There was a six game stretch where he managed 30+ points on 60% shooting, something that had never been done if I remember right. He shot 40% from three for the season on good volume.

The Spurs tried to exploit his shooting and it almost worked, but then he decided fine, if you want me to take these shots I will. I can hit them. And he started doing that and carried the Heat to their last two wins. The team who had the best ability and most success exploiting his limitations failed, because they were gone. 2009 LeBron wouldn't have won that series.

Exactly. Well said.

[LukaTheGOAT]

2012.

His 2009 playoffs are way overrated IMHO. At least from statistical pov.

The following percentages mean 'how much a player meant to his team from statistical pov' (they were calculated from available stats);

38.41% - 39.65%, Wilt in 1964 playoffs, 12 games (2nd percentage is about minutes adjustment)
37.24% - 42.10%, Kareem in 1977 playoffs, 11 games
36.17% - 36.17%, Wilt in 1962 playoffs, 12 games
34.24% - 39.96%, LeBron in 2009 playoffs, 14 games
33.65% - 38.26%, Timmy in 2003 playoffs, 9 games
32.17% - 36.66%, Jordan in 1990 playoffs, 16 games
31.65% - 35.50%, Hakeem in 1993 playoffs, 12 games
(These are the ones I'm aware of, the list probably can be expanded.)

I don't understand why LeBron gets 'this' praised for 2009 playoffs performance, because winning conditions have huge impacts on the numbers. Your team simply can not be this dependent on you and can win. And it wasn't like LeBron lost to an all-time great team. They lost to a team that got defeated in 5 in the NBA Finals. He simply didn't face Russell's Celtics or the Bad Boys, and force them to play a game 7.

His numbers in 'a losing effort' is not something uncanny or unheard of.


As for aspects of the game, his defense was still there in 2011-12 season. And I think his 2012-13 regular season is goat like, I don't think his playoffs performance wasn't. Overall, I've always thought 2011-12 season is the best and the most complete of LeBron.

This is old but doesn't really make sense to me. Seems to penalize 09 Lebron more for his situation than his actual ability as a player. Like in a different situation, are we sure LBJ with a lower offensive load, couldn't bring more effort on defense?

Also which we knew how he calculated the stat, because just about every single metric says that he was the best valuable player ever in the 09 PS. It wasn't just a do-it all year...it was THE DO-IT ALL PS.

[ardee]

I said 2017 3 years ago in this thread, and I am even more firmly convinced that's the answer now.

Lots of people have been called unstoppable before, but 2017 (and 2018 Playoffs tbh) LeBron REALLY was unstoppable. His athleticism was still 98% there, his IQ was off the charts, his jumper was hotter than fish grease, including from 3. He could diagnose plays on either end faster than you can comprehend. No one was ever better at basketball than LeBron was for that stretch.

The 2017 Cavs would have repeated resoundingly with the GOAT Playoff offense if Durant doesn't take the "hardest road" that year. He also dragged a 2018 team to the Finals that needed him to average 38/9/9 on 65% TS to win a game... and he did it. And he'd have taken a game off the GOAT team basically alone if JR Smith was competent.

[70sFan]

Still 2012 to me - the best defense he ever played and I like physical beast version of James the most.

[ardee]

Still 2012 to me - the best defense he ever played and I like physical beast version of James the most.

But that wasn't even when he was at his best physically... It was notable that he got too jacked in the 2011 season and it made him slower. He was still shedding that weight in 2012 and all of us on the board back then could see his athleticism wasn't what it used to be. His jumper was really inconsistent that year too, completely vanished in the Finals.

If you want peak athleticism, choose 2009.

2012 is one of the worse years of his prime I feel. Would only take it above 2011 and 2015 for sure.

[70sFan]

Still 2012 to me - the best defense he ever played and I like physical beast version of James the most.

But that wasn't even when he was at his best physically... It was notable that he got too jacked in the 2011 season and it made him slower. He was still shedding that weight in 2012 and all of us on the board back then could see his athleticism wasn't what it used to be. His jumper was really inconsistent that year too, completely vanished in the Finals.

If you want peak athleticism, choose 2009.

2012 is one of the worse years of his prime I feel. Would only take it above 2011 and 2015 for sure.

I disagree, maybe he wasn't as quick as in other seasons, but he was insanely strong and absurdly athletic. I like how he played bigman role in that season with more off-ball play than later.

I don't care about his inconsistent jumpshot, because it didn't bother him at all. I don't like the versions of James that relied too heavily on his jumpshot because he was never consistent with that. Despite his lack of shooting, he had the best postseason of his career in my opinion, facing absurdly tough defensive environment and a lot of size (which he didn't later).

2009 is also a good choice, but he was less versatile offensive player at that point (worse post game, off-ball movement). This is how I rank James seasons:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

[falcolombardi]

2012.

His 2009 playoffs are way overrated IMHO. At least from statistical pov.

The following percentages mean 'how much a player meant to his team from statistical pov' (they were calculated from available stats);

38.41% - 39.65%, Wilt in 1964 playoffs, 12 games (2nd percentage is about minutes adjustment)
37.24% - 42.10%, Kareem in 1977 playoffs, 11 games
36.17% - 36.17%, Wilt in 1962 playoffs, 12 games
34.24% - 39.96%, LeBron in 2009 playoffs, 14 games
33.65% - 38.26%, Timmy in 2003 playoffs, 9 games
32.17% - 36.66%, Jordan in 1990 playoffs, 16 games
31.65% - 35.50%, Hakeem in 1993 playoffs, 12 games
(These are the ones I'm aware of, the list probably can be expanded.)

I don't understand why LeBron gets 'this' praised for 2009 playoffs performance, because winning conditions have huge impacts on the numbers. Your team simply can not be this dependent on you and can win. And it wasn't like LeBron lost to an all-time great team. They lost to a team that got defeated in 5 in the NBA Finals. He simply didn't face Russell's Celtics or the Bad Boys, and force them to play a game 7.

His numbers in 'a losing effort' is not something uncanny or unheard of.


As for aspects of the game, his defense was still there in 2011-12 season. And I think his 2012-13 regular season is goat like, I don't think his playoffs performance wasn't. Overall, I've always thought 2011-12 season is the best and the most complete of LeBron.

This is old but doesn't really make sense to me. Seems to penalize 09 Lebron more for his situation than his actual ability as a player. Like in a different situation, are we sure LBJ with a lower offensive load, couldn't bring more effort on defense?

Also which we knew how he calculated the stat, because just about every single metric says that he was the best valuable player ever in the 09 PS. It wasn't just a do-it all year...it was THE DO-IT ALL PS.

i have to agree with this

as good of a poster as odinn is, here he essentially used a troll tier reductionist argument "if he was so good why did he lose?"

[Cavsfansince84]

Still 2012 to me - the best defense he ever played and I like physical beast version of James the most.

But that wasn't even when he was at his best physically... It was notable that he got too jacked in the 2011 season and it made him slower. He was still shedding that weight in 2012 and all of us on the board back then could see his athleticism wasn't what it used to be. His jumper was really inconsistent that year too, completely vanished in the Finals.

If you want peak athleticism, choose 2009.

2012 is one of the worse years of his prime I feel. Would only take it above 2011 and 2015 for sure.

I'm not sure he was shedding by 2012 so much as his body had adjusted to the added weight. I don't think he was really shedding weight until 2014. I recall an interview he did for GQ in either 2012 or 2013 where he said his actual playing weight halfway into the season was 273 and he felt good but that was to play the 4 more. There's no doubt he lost some quickness but he was still very fluid. The summer he went back to the Cavs he lost like 20 lb and he wasn't really the same because it was too quick and he had some back issues which developed.

[capfan33]

I've been pretty vocal in the Lebron thread that it's 2013. I firmly believe if Wade hadn't gotten injured that the Heat would have rolled through the playoffs and it would much more universally be seen as Lebron's peak. In terms of skillset it's the best combo of offense, defense and experiece/IQ. Much better offensively than 2012 and much better defensively than 2014.

I can buy an argument for 2017 or the last 2 Cleveland years however.

[Cavsfansince84]

I've been pretty vocal in the Lebron thread that it's 2013. I firmly believe if Wade hadn't gotten injured that the Heat would have rolled through the playoffs and it would much more universally be seen as Lebron's peak. In terms of skillset it's the best combo of offense, defense and experiece/IQ. Much better offensively than 2012 and much better defensively than 2014.

I can buy an argument for 2017 or the last 2 Cleveland years however.

Ya I think its worth noting what a tremendous rs he had in 2013. Its right there with 2009 with the added benefit of elite 3 pt shooting and a ts add of +337 which is along with 2014 the only years he broke 300. Its easily among the best regular seasons of all time.

[homecourtloss]

2012.

His 2009 playoffs are way overrated IMHO. At least from statistical pov.

The following percentages mean 'how much a player meant to his team from statistical pov' (they were calculated from available stats);

38.41% - 39.65%, Wilt in 1964 playoffs, 12 games (2nd percentage is about minutes adjustment)
37.24% - 42.10%, Kareem in 1977 playoffs, 11 games
36.17% - 36.17%, Wilt in 1962 playoffs, 12 games
34.24% - 39.96%, LeBron in 2009 playoffs, 14 games
33.65% - 38.26%, Timmy in 2003 playoffs, 9 games
32.17% - 36.66%, Jordan in 1990 playoffs, 16 games
31.65% - 35.50%, Hakeem in 1993 playoffs, 12 games
(These are the ones I'm aware of, the list probably can be expanded.)

I don't understand why LeBron gets 'this' praised for 2009 playoffs performance, because winning conditions have huge impacts on the numbers. Your team simply can not be this dependent on you and can win. And it wasn't like LeBron lost to an all-time great team. They lost to a team that got defeated in 5 in the NBA Finals. He simply didn't face Russell's Celtics or the Bad Boys, and force them to play a game 7.

His numbers in 'a losing effort' is not something uncanny or unheard of.


As for aspects of the game, his defense was still there in 2011-12 season. And I think his 2012-13 regular season is goat like, I don't think his playoffs performance wasn't. Overall, I've always thought 2011-12 season is the best and the most complete of LeBron.

This is old but doesn't really make sense to me. Seems to penalize 09 Lebron more for his situation than his actual ability as a player. Like in a different situation, are we sure LBJ with a lower offensive load, couldn't bring more effort on defense?

Also which we knew how he calculated the stat, because just about every single metric says that he was the best valuable player ever in the 09 PS. It wasn't just a do-it all year...it was THE DO-IT ALL PS.

i have to agree with this

as good of a poster as odinn is, here he essentially used a troll tier reductionist argument "if he was so good why did he lose?"

Yeah, it was definitely a strange post.

[falcolombardi]

This is old but doesn't really make sense to me. Seems to penalize 09 Lebron more for his situation than his actual ability as a player. Like in a different situation, are we sure LBJ with a lower offensive load, couldn't bring more effort on defense?

Also which we knew how he calculated the stat, because just about every single metric says that he was the best valuable player ever in the 09 PS. It wasn't just a do-it all year...it was THE DO-IT ALL PS.

i have to agree with this

as good of a poster as odinn is, here he essentially used a troll tier reductionist argument "if he was so good why did he lose?"

Yeah, it was definitely a strange post.

specially because it essentially says "there are the best losing effort seasons by jordan, wilt, kareem, hakeem, duncan. statistically 2009 lebron is only the second best of them" as if that was not incredible

[letskissbro]

I used to be stuck between 09, 10, and 13 and even considered 17 and 18 but I think I'm starting to side more with 2013. He was incredible across the entire playoffs in many of those Cavs years but after looking into things his statistical drop in the 2013 postseason seems to be a situational thing and a result of the poor fit between Miami's big 3. Even in the Spurs series he famously struggled in he was absolutely killing them with Wade on the bench.

Spacing is such a common sense thing to consider nowadays but it didn't really become a mainstream concept until like 2015 so people often mistook him for just being passive or not having faith in his shot or something. In retrospect that doesn't really make sense because 09/10 LeBron was just as aggressive as he was 8 years later in the 2017 and 2018 playoffs.

With Wade on the bench he was putting up 09/18 postseason numbers through that entire 12-14 span for the RS and PS while leading the Heat to some of the best offenses ever.

From the LeBron thread:

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

His individual numbers with Wade off the court those playoffs are insane too:

33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
8.6 REB/75
8.6 AST/75
1.8 STL/75
1.2 BLK/75 (0.9 at the rim)

All while leading a +17.7 offense (would be the best all time)

Across his entire 12-14 peak in Miami he averaged 36.5 per 75 on +7.8 rTS% with Wade on the bench in the playoffs. If he had the opportunity to play with an off ball motion shooter like Klay for example he realistically could've been putting up 2009/2018 PS numbers every season of his prime.

Bonus fun stat:
In 2014 KD shot 40.8% on jumpshots
In 2013 LeBron shot 42.5% on jumpshots

I have more faith in Heat LeBron's shot, shot selection, and overall skillset compared to early Cavs LeBron and his defensive motor was better than late Cavs LeBron. Kind of the boring answer but yeah. I think I could still be convinced that 09 and 10 were at least just as good as 2013 and depending on how you weigh RS vs PS 2017 or 2018 is perfectly acceptable too since he improved as a playmaker and overall experience matters.