BodieB wrote:I keep seeing posts talking about swapping the two and how Luka would be in the same position if he was on the Celtics, but that logic is flawed. One the biggest strengths of the current team, and the reason they're in the finals is the ability to switch on defense. The whole defensive system breaks down with Luka in place of Tatum. Now, would the increase in offensive output mitigate the loss of defense? Maybe, but it's not an absolute.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka
SelfishPlayer wrote:"Doing more" is a concept that Luka's proponents fully understand when it comes to hero ball, but become obtuse when applied to defense and allowing your teammates to do more on offense. Tatum does more on defense and allows his teammates more opportunity at creating offensively. The Mavs created very well in their playoff wins without Luka. If the Mavs want to win a championship they'll have to spread the ball around.
3toheadmelo wrote:CoP wrote:CobraCommander wrote:Uh so you saying the GSWs neutralize both guys scoring in game one of a series and Tatums team won and Lukas didn’t....proves nothing except that these guys are again closer that people want to admit
I guess my only real point is that both guys had their struggles in Game 1 vs. GSW, and so using Tatum's scoring line from last night to somehow argue against him in this discussion (which is what happened when this thread was bumped last night) doesn't make much sense.
I do feel like some people arguing for Luka have something of a double standard. If Luka has a great scoring night or has a lot of assists, it's because he's a great scorer or a great playmaker. But if Tatum has 13 assists, it's just because his teammates are awesome, and not because Tatum was drawing doubles all night and making the right reads to the open man. Tatum's scoring struggles last night were his own, nobody else's. He shot it horribly, but still positively affected the game with his playmaking and defense.
Yeah some of the people in this thread think this happens because his "teamates are awesome". He's made excellent reads and deserves all the credit for that.
CobraCommander wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:CoP wrote:I guess my only real point is that both guys had their struggles in Game 1 vs. GSW, and so using Tatum's scoring line from last night to somehow argue against him in this discussion (which is what happened when this thread was bumped last night) doesn't make much sense.
I do feel like some people arguing for Luka have something of a double standard. If Luka has a great scoring night or has a lot of assists, it's because he's a great scorer or a great playmaker. But if Tatum has 13 assists, it's just because his teammates are awesome, and not because Tatum was drawing doubles all night and making the right reads to the open man. Tatum's scoring struggles last night were his own, nobody else's. He shot it horribly, but still positively affected the game with his playmaking and defense.
Yeah some of the people in this thread think this happens because his "teamates are awesome". He's made excellent reads and deserves all the credit for that.
I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.
I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.
But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that
Bob8 wrote:CobraCommander wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:Yeah some of the people in this thread think this happens because his "teamates are awesome". He's made excellent reads and deserves all the credit for that.
I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.
I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.
But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that
Having 13 assists is great, although average shooters rarely shoot 65% for 3, problem is shooting 3/17. Draymond, Simmons...are not having those numbers, because they know their limitations.
Having bad shooting night is ok, Tatum is not bad player because of it. But trying to spin bad shooting game into great game by Tatum is laughable. Celtics were loosing game 1 until big turnaround in Q4. It was not Tatum, it was Jalen Brown, who turned the game around. Tatum did almost 0 in first 7 minutes of Q4, when they turned game around, 3 missed shots an 1 assist. He didn't even score in Q4.
This game showed only 1 thing, Celtics have great team. Multiple great defenders and many players that can step up, when their star is struggling.
Comparing individual performances in this year's playoffs. Luka is better in points, rebounds, assists, steals, TO, eFG%, TS%.
CobraCommander wrote:Bob8 wrote:CobraCommander wrote:I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.
I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.
But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that
Having 13 assists is great, although average shooters rarely shoot 65% for 3, problem is shooting 3/17. Draymond, Simmons...are not having those numbers, because they know their limitations.
Having bad shooting night is ok, Tatum is not bad player because of it. But trying to spin bad shooting game into great game by Tatum is laughable. Celtics were loosing game 1 until big turnaround in Q4. It was not Tatum, it was Jalen Brown, who turned the game around. Tatum did almost 0 in first 7 minutes of Q4, when they turned game around, 3 missed shots an 1 assist. He didn't even score in Q4.
This game showed only 1 thing, Celtics have great team. Multiple great defenders and many players that can step up, when their star is struggling.
Comparing individual performances in this year's playoffs. Luka is better in points, rebounds, assists, steals, TO, eFG%, TS%.
Bob you misunderstood me- one game does not mean anything at this level.
I started by saying GSW shut down Luka and Tatums scoring in game one of their series. Tatum gets some credit for getting 13 assist and having 2 turn overs Vs Luka have 7 turn overs in Lukas first game against GSW. Tatum gets credit for win as well. It still doesn’t prohibitively mean tatum is better than Luka.
If tatum is the FMVP and gets a chip I will have the 24 year old tatum ahead of Luka because being the best player on a championship team means more to me than anything. Rings matters at the elite level that tatum and Luka play at
I would never praised Luka for going 3/17, with 0 points in last 16 minutes. If Tatum has had good game in game 1, what will we say, if he has 35/10 in game 2? GOAT? Bob8 wrote:CobraCommander wrote:Bob8 wrote:
Having 13 assists is great, although average shooters rarely shoot 65% for 3, problem is shooting 3/17. Draymond, Simmons...are not having those numbers, because they know their limitations.
Having bad shooting night is ok, Tatum is not bad player because of it. But trying to spin bad shooting game into great game by Tatum is laughable. Celtics were loosing game 1 until big turnaround in Q4. It was not Tatum, it was Jalen Brown, who turned the game around. Tatum did almost 0 in first 7 minutes of Q4, when they turned game around, 3 missed shots an 1 assist. He didn't even score in Q4.
This game showed only 1 thing, Celtics have great team. Multiple great defenders and many players that can step up, when their star is struggling.
Comparing individual performances in this year's playoffs. Luka is better in points, rebounds, assists, steals, TO, eFG%, TS%.
Bob you misunderstood me- one game does not mean anything at this level.
I started by saying GSW shut down Luka and Tatums scoring in game one of their series. Tatum gets some credit for getting 13 assist and having 2 turn overs Vs Luka have 7 turn overs in Lukas first game against GSW. Tatum gets credit for win as well. It still doesn’t prohibitively mean tatum is better than Luka.
If tatum is the FMVP and gets a chip I will have the 24 year old tatum ahead of Luka because being the best player on a championship team means more to me than anything. Rings matters at the elite level that tatum and Luka play at
1 game means very little. Luka still averaged 32 points in series against GSW and Tatum will for sure be better in next games too. Problem is in spinning bad game into good one. Do you believe that those, who're enthusiastic about Tatum's last game performance, would done the same in Luka's case? No way, that overinvested Knicks' fan, would have laughed at Luka.
Jalen Brown is very near to Tatum in this playoffs. Tatum having better numbers, but Jalen brings better energy in the court and is a player with bigger "balls', when you need to turn game around. Game 1 was won because of his effort in first half of Q4, Tatum was just watching him most of the time. I'm not sure that Tatum will necessarily get MVP if Celtics win.
I totally agree that winning titles is the most important part of basketball, but players have to be lucky to be in the right club early on too. Magic was, Jordan wasn't, LeBron wasn't...It's very difficult to say that Luka should have won title with Mavs as they are at the moment. If anything, beating Suns was a fantastic achievement.
If Celtics win and Tatum plays a lot better than he was in game 1, he will for sure deservedly being considered as the most successful young player in Nba at the moment. Who's the best player of this generation will be known in 10 years.
SelfishPlayer wrote:"Doing more" is a concept that Luka's proponents fully understand when it comes to hero ball, but become obtuse when applied to defense and allowing your teammates to do more on offense. Tatum does more on defense and allows his teammates more opportunity at creating offensively. The Mavs created very well in their playoff wins without Luka. If the Mavs want to win a championship they'll have to spread the ball around.
Archx wrote:SelfishPlayer wrote:"Doing more" is a concept that Luka's proponents fully understand when it comes to hero ball, but become obtuse when applied to defense and allowing your teammates to do more on offense. Tatum does more on defense and allows his teammates more opportunity at creating offensively. The Mavs created very well in their playoff wins without Luka. If the Mavs want to win a championship they'll have to spread the ball around.
You still can't grasp the concept that Mavs got in to the WCF despite all the negative things you're trying to imprint into people's minds. Before you came along and started convincing everyone how Luka is bad for Mavs there were 67% votes in his favor, now there are 69%. And that's A LOT of votes. You're not doing a good job sir.
I find it ridiculous how you can't understand that Mavs didn't lose vs GSW on offense but it was their horrible interior defense and lack of rebounding. People showed you stats, over and over again, PROVEN STATS, yet you keep rambling on about things that have NOTHING to do on why Mavs lost.
It must be awesome to have such freedom to write wrong opinions over and over and not even care about them.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka
CobraCommander wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:CoP wrote:I guess my only real point is that both guys had their struggles in Game 1 vs. GSW, and so using Tatum's scoring line from last night to somehow argue against him in this discussion (which is what happened when this thread was bumped last night) doesn't make much sense.
I do feel like some people arguing for Luka have something of a double standard. If Luka has a great scoring night or has a lot of assists, it's because he's a great scorer or a great playmaker. But if Tatum has 13 assists, it's just because his teammates are awesome, and not because Tatum was drawing doubles all night and making the right reads to the open man. Tatum's scoring struggles last night were his own, nobody else's. He shot it horribly, but still positively affected the game with his playmaking and defense.
Yeah some of the people in this thread think this happens because his "teamates are awesome". He's made excellent reads and deserves all the credit for that.
I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.
I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.
But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that
3toheadmelo wrote:CobraCommander wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:Yeah some of the people in this thread think this happens because his "teamates are awesome". He's made excellent reads and deserves all the credit for that.
I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.
I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.
But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that
Yep, 13 assists and 2 TO in a finals debut is extremely impressive. The ability to dominate the game in other areas like defense and playmaking when his shot isnt failling is what seperates players from good to great. You know who did this a lot too.. his idol Kobe. He really could be the Kobe of this generation IMO.
The Comedian wrote:BodieB wrote:I keep seeing posts talking about swapping the two and how Luka would be in the same position if he was on the Celtics, but that logic is flawed. One the biggest strengths of the current team, and the reason they're in the finals is the ability to switch on defense. The whole defensive system breaks down with Luka in place of Tatum. Now, would the increase in offensive output mitigate the loss of defense? Maybe, but it's not an absolute.
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SelfishPlayer wrote:Archx wrote:SelfishPlayer wrote:"Doing more" is a concept that Luka's proponents fully understand when it comes to hero ball, but become obtuse when applied to defense and allowing your teammates to do more on offense. Tatum does more on defense and allows his teammates more opportunity at creating offensively. The Mavs created very well in their playoff wins without Luka. If the Mavs want to win a championship they'll have to spread the ball around.
You still can't grasp the concept that Mavs got in to the WCF despite all the negative things you're trying to imprint into people's minds. Before you came along and started convincing everyone how Luka is bad for Mavs there were 67% votes in his favor, now there are 69%. And that's A LOT of votes. You're not doing a good job sir.
I find it ridiculous how you can't understand that Mavs didn't lose vs GSW on offense but it was their horrible interior defense and lack of rebounding. People showed you stats, over and over again, PROVEN STATS, yet you keep rambling on about things that have NOTHING to do on why Mavs lost.
It must be awesome to have such freedom to write wrong opinions over and over and not even care about them.
So there has been an NBA champion that utilized hero ball where the hero was a defensive liability?
Archx wrote:SelfishPlayer wrote:Archx wrote:
You still can't grasp the concept that Mavs got in to the WCF despite all the negative things you're trying to imprint into people's minds. Before you came along and started convincing everyone how Luka is bad for Mavs there were 67% votes in his favor, now there are 69%. And that's A LOT of votes. You're not doing a good job sir.
I find it ridiculous how you can't understand that Mavs didn't lose vs GSW on offense but it was their horrible interior defense and lack of rebounding. People showed you stats, over and over again, PROVEN STATS, yet you keep rambling on about things that have NOTHING to do on why Mavs lost.
It must be awesome to have such freedom to write wrong opinions over and over and not even care about them.
So there has been an NBA champion that utilized hero ball where the hero was a defensive liability?
What defensive liability? I told you repeatedly that Luka leads Mavs in DBPM, DWS%, DWS, BPM, WS/48, Steals, Rebounds, Deflections per game, then he is 2nd in blocks, 3rd Contested total shots (he even leads Tatum in contested shots per game), 3rd in DFG%.
What are you talking about? What defensive liability? Because he doesn't have 2 guys behind him to protect his back like some other superstars, that's what you want to penalize him for? I'm not saying he's the best or whatever, i can admit that he is at least average and that's more than enough for this team. And that's the point everyone is trying to tell you, Mavs have way bigger issues than Doncic's defense.
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka
CobraCommander wrote:The Comedian wrote:BodieB wrote:I keep seeing posts talking about swapping the two and how Luka would be in the same position if he was on the Celtics, but that logic is flawed. One the biggest strengths of the current team, and the reason they're in the finals is the ability to switch on defense. The whole defensive system breaks down with Luka in place of Tatum. Now, would the increase in offensive output mitigate the loss of defense? Maybe, but it's not an absolute.
?s=20&t=V5r45Ey5MRWkFWJrwAYdLg
Boston is only where they are because of two way play..._I agree that Luka would not make them better...you can’t just swap a 6’10” in shape dude that can give you 46 against Giannis and D up Giannis with a guy that could give you 40 as well but not stop KD or Giannis or Butler if the switch came. Again doesn’t make Tatum better per say...just means the team built around Tatum is built on defense.
Funny thing is the thing that made Dallas better was defense too... so the better question would be - would DALLAS be in the finals with Tatum because their defense would be that much better ...
SelfishPlayer wrote:The Mavs won playoff games without Luka
SelfishPlayer wrote:Archx wrote:SelfishPlayer wrote:
So there has been an NBA champion that utilized hero ball where the hero was a defensive liability?
What defensive liability? I told you repeatedly that Luka leads Mavs in DBPM, DWS%, DWS, BPM, WS/48, Steals, Rebounds, Deflections per game, then he is 2nd in blocks, 3rd Contested total shots (he even leads Tatum in contested shots per game), 3rd in DFG%.
What are you talking about? What defensive liability? Because he doesn't have 2 guys behind him to protect his back like some other superstars, that's what you want to penalize him for? I'm not saying he's the best or whatever, i can admit that he is at least average and that's more than enough for this team. And that's the point everyone is trying to tell you, Mavs have way bigger issues than Doncic's defense.
Luka Doncic has a defensive rating of 111.4 in the playoffs. He is an absolute target!
