How many single season duos over 2020 LeBron/AD?

[ardee]

I personally think the only one I would go with for SURE would be 2001 Shaq/Kobe. (I also think these are the only two seasons when the a pair of teammates ranked 1 and 2 in the league for the season).

Others in consideration would be '71 Kareem/Oscar, '80 Kareem/Magic, '86 Bird/McHale, '92 Jordan/Pippen and '17 Curry/Durant. I don't think I'd take any of those over LeBron/AD tho tbh.

[70sFan]

Some to consider:

Spoiler:

1965 Jones/Russell
1967 Greer/Wilt
1971 Oscar/Kareem
1972 West/Wilt
1980 Magic/Kareem
1983 Julius/Moses
1985 Magic/Kareem
1986 McHale/Bird
1992 Stockton/Malone
1992 Jordan/Pippen
1995 Drexler/Hakeem
1999 Duncan/Robinson
2001 Kobe/Shaq
2005 Manu/Duncan
2009 Kobe/Gasol
2011 Wade/James
2016 Westbrook/Durant
2016 Curry/Green
2017 Curry/Durant

Among those, I'd take these ones over 2020 Lakers duo:

1971 Oscar/Kareem
1999 Duncan/Robinson
2001 Kobe/Shaq
2011 Wade/James
2017 Curry/Durant

with 1986 Bird/McHale, 1972 West/Wilt, 1992 Jordan/Pippen 2005 Manu/Duncan and 2016 Curry/Green in consideration as well.

[No-more-rings]

For recent years, probably 2017 Curry/KD.

[Jaivl]

Maybe 2017 Curry/KD and 2001 Kobe/Shaq, no one else.

[letskissbro]

None imo

[RCM88x]

01 Shaq and Kobe are probably the only duo playoffs wise I'd put on the same level
17 Curry and KD are similar for a full season

[MyUniBroDavis]

01 Shaq and kobe is a hard maybe but probably

17 curry and 17 Kd probably

[falcolombardi]

01 Shaq and kobe is a hard maybe but probably

17 curry and 17 Kd probably

in a vacuum i may like lebron/davis over curry/durant to start a team tbh

davis was so good that run that when you account for the defense he is comparable as a second offensive engine to durant (just as portable if not more in offense and specially defense)

and i think lebron in his last prime season was still ahead of peak curry by a tiny margin

[MyUniBroDavis]

01 Shaq and kobe is a hard maybe but probably

17 curry and 17 Kd probably

in a vacuum i may like lebron/davis over curry/durant to start a team tbh

davis was so good that run that when you account for the defense he is comparable as a second offensive engine to durant (just as portable if not more in offense and specially defense)

and i think lebron in his last prime season was still ahead of peak curry by a tiny margin

It’s more me being high on Durant than low on AD or Bron

It’s kind of tough for me. I basically am looking at it from a playoffs perspective, the lebron AD combo on defense is crazy. 2020 was brons best sustained playoff defense I’d think (2016 over it), it gets underrated in that regard. He shut down jimmy at the end too. AD too, basically became the best defender in the nba and an absurdly good scorer too.

I’m really high in 2017 curry, would pick 2020 bron in terms of reliability though.

I’m really high in 2017 Durant too though which is the main thing for me

[70sFan]

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these responses.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these responses.

Why out of curiousity?

I feel 2020 bron was probably up there with any of his playoff runs, given his defense was probably the best for a whole run outside of 2016, and AD obviously had one of the great big man runs too, and they fit together and got pretty great results (which are a bit skewed in a summary scale cuz they were like -57 in garbage time or around that number) their net rtg was +11.3 in the first three quarters. They were +25 in the 13 non garbage time games, which would make them around a +10-11 team I think overall if the other stats stay the same

It’s pretty arguably that (outside of Mitchell hitting everything) that bron and AD were the best offensive and defensive players of the playoffs overall

[70sFan]

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these responses.

Why out of curiousity?

I feel 2020 bron was probably up there with any of his playoff runs, given his defense was probably the best for a whole run outside of 2016, and AD obviously had one of the great big man runs too, and they fit together and got pretty great results (which are a bit skewed in a summary scale cuz they were like -57 in garbage time or around that number) their net rtg was +11.3 in the first three quarters. They were +25 in the 13 non garbage time games, which would make them around a +10-11 team I think overall if the other stats stay the same

It’s pretty arguably that (outside of Mitchell hitting everything) that bron and AD were the best offensive and defensive players of the playoffs overall

I don't think James defense was nearly as good in 2020 as in Miami. He was certainly good, but his role was much different, which should be taken into account.

It's not that they weren't impressive, but more that other duos are heavily underrated here. Nobody mentioned Duncan/Robinson for example, what's the reason to put James/Davis in another tier to them? Well, other than LeBron being LeBron of course.

[Eagle4]

'11 Wade/Lebron.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these responses.

Why out of curiousity?

I feel 2020 bron was probably up there with any of his playoff runs, given his defense was probably the best for a whole run outside of 2016, and AD obviously had one of the great big man runs too, and they fit together and got pretty great results (which are a bit skewed in a summary scale cuz they were like -57 in garbage time or around that number) their net rtg was +11.3 in the first three quarters. They were +25 in the 13 non garbage time games, which would make them around a +10-11 team I think overall if the other stats stay the same

It’s pretty arguably that (outside of Mitchell hitting everything) that bron and AD were the best offensive and defensive players of the playoffs overall

I don't think James defense was nearly as good in 2020 as in Miami. He was certainly good, but his role was much different, which should be taken into account.

It's not that they weren't impressive, but more that other duos are heavily underrated here. Nobody mentioned Duncan/Robinson for example, what's the reason to put James/Davis in another tier to them? Well, other than LeBron being LeBron of course.

I meant more so his playoff defense than his regular season defense. I thought he was plenty active in his playoff D, there were definately games he became the defensive anchor where AD was more the versatility plug, and vice versa.

With lebron and AD being another tier, I think it stems from the fact that there’s a pretty reasonable argument throughout the playoffs that they’ve aren’t just the 2 best players in the league at that time, but you can reasonably say that bron and AD were both the best offensive and the best defensive players during that post season run. Much of that comes from AD being crazy hot, but it still is what happened.

Just thinking back on it, I do think brons defense stood out crazily that playoff run, they faced a lot of strong offensive teams and 3/4 of them had been in a crazy groove up untill that point or had something which made their offense go crazy I feel

[70sFan]

I meant more so his playoff defense than his regular season defense. I thought he was plenty active in his playoff D, there were definately games he became the defensive anchor where AD was more the versatility plug, and vice versa.

I know you meant playoffs, but I don't see him being better than Miami LeBron. He was extremely good at navigating off-ball actions and pre-switching, but he also consistently took the easiest possible assignment (outside of the part of the finals when Butler cooked him). He played free floating role mostly because he defended mediocre offensive players. It's still very impressive, but I don't find it to be some kind of all-time great defensive performance.

With lebron and AD being another tier, I think it stems from the fact that there’s a pretty reasonable argument throughout the playoffs that they’ve aren’t just the 2 best players in the league at that time, but you can reasonably say that bron and AD were both the best offensive and the best defensive players during that post season run. Much of that comes from AD being crazy hot, but it still is what happened.

I don't think you can argue that Davis was better offensively than Harden. I don't think he was better than Jokic either. Even Butler is arguable.

Either way, I don't think James/Davis did anything to put them tiers ahead of 1999 Duncan/Robinson for example.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I know you meant playoffs, but I don't see him being better than Miami LeBron. He was extremely good at navigating off-ball actions and pre-switching, but he also consistently took the easiest possible assignment (outside of the part of the finals when Butler cooked him). He played free floating role mostly because he defended mediocre offensive players. It's still very impressive, but I don't find it to be some kind of all-time great defensive performance.

The idea that butler cooked lebron is a bit overstated
Looking through his highlights in games 3, butler scored on lebron twice. He drove by a few times off of some ball screens to get assists but that was pretty much it.

Looking at it in game 5, he didn’t score on lebron.

Game 6, I remember lebron doing a good job on him too

I don’t think it makes sense to blame lebron for playing a free safety role if it’s the most effective role for him to play? It’s not as if he was actively running away from matchups, since he asked to guard Murray and butler at different points, but the way it goes now good coaching means you can usually get switches, it’s what butler did after AD locked him up that one game for example

Lebron playing free safety and not guarding lillard or Murray (and he did guard Murray at times) is completely reasonable, especially since they have guys whose strengths are guarding those guys

Anyways, in 2016 finals free safety Lebron was the best defensive lebron we’ve ever seen, so I don’t think the fact he took on a different role and was more impactful in that end in a different role is a bad thing, and there’s nothing that really goes against bron being the second best defensive player of the playoffs

I don't think you can argue that Davis was better offensively than Harden. I don't think he was better than Jokic either. Even Butler is arguable.
Either way, I don't think James/Davis did anything to put them tiers ahead of 1999 Duncan/Robinson for example.

Butler in the finals, outside of that no.

I might agree with harden but that comes with the caveat, that the Lakers definately we’re doing a more let him score but make the offense bad type of thing, alotnof possessions he couldn’t get anything and he passed it at the last second for a bad shot. He was scoring efficiently sure but the teams offense was failing to get good looks, although that’s not on him more so the system.

I could see Jokic but I don’t think it’s clear cut either.

I feel you’re heavily underrating ADs playoffs here, a lot of people thought ADs playoffs were better than brons up until the finals started

It’s not without good reason too, it’s one of the most effecient high scoring playoffs in nba history. The two bad shooting games really kill his averages, taking them out obv doesn’t make sense but it’s game 1 of the entire run and game 6 vs the heat where he shot poorly in a second half that they entered up 28, but to put his overall consistency in perspective taking those two out and he had a TS of 69.3%. As it stands it’s 66.5, which is higher than 2017 curry

Now while I understand the idea that ADs shots are generally easier, I’m not sure how valid that is if we use every series.

One issue with playoff averages is a bad game skews things a bit too much at times. 4 great games and 1 terrible game is better than 5 good games

I’d agree for the Portland series off what I remember, but he also hit 30-9-5 on 1.5 turnovers shooting 66-54-70 (74.6TS) , and in the games he had to leave early (where he had 18 points in 17 minutes) he was +37

Against houstan, again he was poor in game 5

He averaged 25.4-12.4-4 on 4 turnovers shooting 60-40-80 (66.3TS)
28.5-13-4 on 3.5 turnovers (67.7TS) taking out game 5

Against the nuggets, to be honest he was assisted in the sense that they’d give him the ball and he’d either act really fast or have to hit an absurd shot or create something out of nothing. Watching those games it’s hard to say anything along the lines of him getting easy shots

Yet he averaged 31-6-2 on 2.2 turnovers and 67.1TS, and just from the few games I saw outside of game 1 it looks like he was hitting some crazy shots

Like, he fully had one of the best scoring postseasons ever, the main criticism is that lebron allowed him to do so, but this isn’t relevant if we’re arguing about them as a duo.

Like, I mean David Robinson scored 15 points a game right? And that’s second year Duncan (who obviously was still great).

AD was a DPOY type of defender that had a legendarily effecient scoring postsesson, and Lebron had a Lebron playoff run. You could reasonably argue they have the 2 better players in that comparison, and they certainly don’t have the worst one

Again, they undoubtedly had the two best players of the playoffs

I don’t understand why 2011 lebron and Wade are being mentioned here given what happened lol

[70sFan]

[The idea that butler cooked lebron is a bit overstated
Looking through his highlights in games 3, butler scored on lebron twice. He drove by a few times off of some ball screens to get assists but that was pretty much it.

Looking at it in game 5, he didn’t score on lebron.

Game 6, I remember lebron doing a good job on him too

I would have to rewatch these games, but LeBron wasn't the main Butler defender and from matchup data (which I always find far from great, so keep that in mind), Butler scored well on James in limited minutes he was guarded by him. That's how I remembered this matchup, but I could be wrong. Feel free to be corrected on this part.

I don’t think it makes sense to blame lebron for playing a free safety role if it’s the most effective role for him to play? It’s not as if he was actively running away from matchups, since he asked to guard Murray and butler at different points, but the way it goes now good coaching means you can usually get switches, it’s what butler did after AD locked him up that one game for example

Lebron playing free safety and not guarding lillard or Murray (and he did guard Murray at times) is completely reasonable, especially since they have guys whose strengths are guarding those guys

I never said I want to blame him for that. I agree it's a smart strategy. It's just that we should keep in mind that roles are important. James had more critical role on defense in Miami, Spo wanted more things from him. He was always at his best as a help defender, but it didn't stop him from dominating his matchup on defense during that period.

We should praise James for his outstanding defensive performance in 2020, but we should also keep in mind that he did less things on that end than peak James.

Anyways, in 2016 finals free safety Lebron was the best defensive lebron we’ve ever seen, so I don’t think the fact he took on a different role and was more impactful in that end in a different role is a bad thing, and there’s nothing that really goes against bron being the second best defensive player of the playoffs

Is there any evidence that 2020 James was more impactful in his role than 2012 or 2013 James in his? I have never seen such evidences, but again I am open for new things.

Butler in the finals, outside of that no.

I don't know, Butler looked great against Milwaukee and this defense was far, far better than anything Davis faced in 2020. I'd agree that Davis didn't have the same lows Butler had (ECF), but I don't think he was clearly better offensively.

I might agree with harden but that comes with the caveat, that the Lakers definately we’re doing a more let him score but make the offense bad type of thing, alotnof possessions he couldn’t get anything and he passed it at the last second for a bad shot. He was scoring efficiently sure but the teams offense was failing to get good looks, although that’s not on him more so the system.

Come on, Harden absorbed ridiculous attention in that series and still played like the best offensive player in the world. His team sucked outside of him, that's why Lakers won comfortably. Harden has his limitations, but he's clearly better offensive player than Davis ever was - even the bubble version. Add to that Harden's best postseason play of his career and it's clear to me. Again - offense only.

I could see Jokic but I don’t think it’s clear cut either.

Jokic is a no-brainer to me. The way he dealt with big defensive oriented frontcourts of Utah and LAL was incredible from current perspective and he has a lot more value as a playmaker and creator than Davis.

I feel you’re heavily underrating ADs playoffs here, a lot of people thought ADs playoffs were better than brons up until the finals started

Sure, but that's because of his defense. I don't think Davis has any case over LeBron offensively.

Because of that defense, I don't have any problem with calling Davis one of 2 best players in the bubble, but I don't think he's top 2 offensive player during that time - even with his absurd shooting.

It’s not without good reason too, it’s one of the most effecient high scoring playoffs in nba history. The two bad shooting games really kill his averages, taking them out obv doesn’t make sense but it’s game 1 of the entire run and game 6 vs the heat where he shot poorly in a second half that they entered up 28, but to put his overall consistency in perspective taking those two out and he had a TS of 69.3%. As it stands it’s 66.5, which is higher than 2017 curry

It's certainly impressive display of his scoring ability and finishing rate, but it doesn't make him the best offensive player in the league. Is it much different than 2005 Amare for example? I wouldn't call Amare better offensive player than Nash or even Manu and he did that against better defenses than Davis.

I don't know why we should take away outliers, these bad games actually happened.

Now while I understand the idea that ADs shots are generally easier, I’m not sure how valid that is if we use every series.

One issue with playoff averages is a bad game skews things a bit too much at times. 4 great games and 1 terrible game is better than 5 good games

I’d agree for the Portland series off what I remember, but he also hit 30-9-5 on 1.5 turnovers shooting 66-54-70 (74.6TS) , and in the games he had to leave early (where he had 18 points in 17 minutes) he was +37

Against houstan, again he was poor in game 5

He averaged 25.4-12.4-4 on 4 turnovers shooting 60-40-80 (66.3TS)
28.5-13-4 on 3.5 turnovers (67.7TS) taking out game 5

Against the nuggets, to be honest he was assisted in the sense that they’d give him the ball and he’d either act really fast or have to hit an absurd shot or create something out of nothing. Watching those games it’s hard to say anything along the lines of him getting easy shots

Yet he averaged 31-6-2 on 2.2 turnovers and 67.1TS, and just from the few games I saw outside of game 1 it looks like he was hitting some crazy shots

I don't pay attention to raw averages, so I don't think this point is for me. Otherwise, I'd never argue Spurs duo over LeBron/Davis.

Like, he fully had one of the best scoring postseasons ever, the main criticism is that lebron allowed him to do so, but this isn’t relevant if we’re arguing about them as a duo.

I don't know how high this season would rank among the best scoring postseason runs ever, but it's certainly impressive. I compare him to some of the best players ever though, so don't expect me to have low standards.

Like, I mean David Robinson scored 15 points a game right? And that’s second year Duncan (who obviously was still great).

16 if you want to round the numbers. In much slower pace as well, which translates to 19 points per75. That along with his unreal defense and non-scoring offense makes him quite spectacular player.

You also talked about averages not telling the whole story - Robinson played less than 30 mpg in three games against the Lakers due to foul trouble. Without these games, his averages would look far better.

What's the matter about Duncan being in his 2nd year? I don't use the argument that James was old and past his prime. Duncan was arguably better than Davis in that postseason run, despite being younger.

AD was a DPOY type of defender that had a legendarily effecient scoring postsesson, and Lebron had a Lebron playoff run. You could reasonably argue they have the 2 better players in that comparison, and they certainly don’t have the worst one

I don't know why it's so certain. Spurs dominated their opponents arguably more than Lakers and their stats don't look nearly as fancy because of pace and because the majority of their impact came from defense. I think Spurs duo defense was much better than Lakers duo defense, I'm not sure if Lakers can negate the gap with offense.

Again, they undoubtedly had the two best players of the playoffs

So did Spurs.

I don’t understand why 2011 lebron and Wade are being mentioned here given what happened lol

2011 Heat duo was better throughout the whole season, excluding the finals. I think it's not that hard to make that argument. It's not like AD/James destroyed Dallas-level team in the postseason either.

[Jaivl]

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these responses.

Why out of curiousity?

I feel 2020 bron was probably up there with any of his playoff runs, given his defense was probably the best for a whole run outside of 2016, and AD obviously had one of the great big man runs too, and they fit together and got pretty great results (which are a bit skewed in a summary scale cuz they were like -57 in garbage time or around that number) their net rtg was +11.3 in the first three quarters. They were +25 in the 13 non garbage time games, which would make them around a +10-11 team I think overall if the other stats stay the same

It’s pretty arguably that (outside of Mitchell hitting everything) that bron and AD were the best offensive and defensive players of the playoffs overall

I don't think James defense was nearly as good in 2020 as in Miami. He was certainly good, but his role was much different, which should be taken into account.

It's not that they weren't impressive, but more that other duos are heavily underrated here. Nobody mentioned Duncan/Robinson for example, what's the reason to put James/Davis in another tier to them? Well, other than LeBron being LeBron of course.

I mean, if anything I'm surprised you'd even consider duos like Kobe/Gasol, Stockton/Malone or Greer/Wilt, as good as they were, over LeBron and a healthy 55%-midrange-shooting Anthony Davis. (If you take Davis' shooting at face value, he's above a good chunk of the As on your list, nevermind the Bs)

I think you're in the wrong for once

[70sFan]

Why out of curiousity?

I feel 2020 bron was probably up there with any of his playoff runs, given his defense was probably the best for a whole run outside of 2016, and AD obviously had one of the great big man runs too, and they fit together and got pretty great results (which are a bit skewed in a summary scale cuz they were like -57 in garbage time or around that number) their net rtg was +11.3 in the first three quarters. They were +25 in the 13 non garbage time games, which would make them around a +10-11 team I think overall if the other stats stay the same

It’s pretty arguably that (outside of Mitchell hitting everything) that bron and AD were the best offensive and defensive players of the playoffs overall

I don't think James defense was nearly as good in 2020 as in Miami. He was certainly good, but his role was much different, which should be taken into account.

It's not that they weren't impressive, but more that other duos are heavily underrated here. Nobody mentioned Duncan/Robinson for example, what's the reason to put James/Davis in another tier to them? Well, other than LeBron being LeBron of course.

I mean, if anything I'm surprised you'd even consider duos like Kobe/Gasol, Stockton/Malone or Greer/Wilt, as good as they were, over LeBron and a healthy 55%-midrange-shooting Anthony Davis. (If you take Davis' shooting at face value, he's above a good chunk of the As on your list, nevermind the Bs)

I think you're in the wrong for once

Well, I just shared a list for consideration, to remember all of the best duos ever. I said that I wouldn't pick most of them over Lakers duo and I specified only 5 duos on that level.

[70sFan]

By the way - does RS suddenly doesn't matter? Lakers duo was nothing to rave about in the RS compared to other ones.