In your opinion, which season was LeBron at his peak?

[Eagle4]

Playoffs lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

[MyUniBroDavis]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol.

Okay and that’s ur opinion, saying you can’t stand it when someone has a different criteria kinda weird lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

Nothing weird about it, people state their grievances daily. Like saying how can people like strawberry over vanilla. You can still be aware some will prefer strawberry but due to your strong preference, it's puzzling. Everyone on this world does it or has that sentiment about SOMETHING whether its food, politics, religion, female preference etc. Not that serious, if it struck a nerve then convince me with concrete analysis, if not then leave it.

Combined since you edited your post

Saying you disagree with it is fine but not being able to stand it and comparing it to politics is a bit odd lol.

Well if I’m making a my POV why my criteria is mostly based off of playoffs for players who have realistic championship aspirations and deep runs

2017 is probably the easier argument even though I have 2018 higher personally

You can make a reasonable case for 2013 lebron not being a top 5 playoff run for him

2009, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 all are pretty reasonable arguments. 09/12/16/17 are all pretty straightforward. 2018 and 2020 are all more controversial, 2020 as a pick in general because of it truly being a 1A 1B situation, and 2018 in the sense that you’re either really high on it or really low on it with no inbetween.

A really crude argument would be

So to argue that 2013 lebron is a more valuable player towards winning a championship than these lebrons, you have to argue either that the difference is marginal enough than having a higher seed is more important than that difference.

It’s pretty hard to discern how important home court advantage is for a team in the playoffs vs how often teams win because they are better teams.

We could take home court advantage and apply it to game 7s

Off a cursory look, taking the amount of game 7s of total series and home court playoff advantage, it’s about a 16% increase in expected wins give or take

When comparing it from a more practical perspective, and to try to separate quality as much as we can let’s do 4th vs 5th seeds since 2000 (I eyeballed it).

26-20 in favor of the 4th seed vs the 5th seed, with the obvious caveat that the 4th seed would be expected to be marginally better, so under this that 16% works out give or take

What does this practically mean? Well it’s a 41 win team vs a 47-48 win team give or take. From a quick gander at a few past seasons, for teams with a similar schedule it’s a difference of about 2-2.5 points in terms of margin of victory.

So a real lazy look would be to say HCA in a 7 game series is the equivalent of a 2 point advantage.

Now is 2017 playoff lebron worth 2 more points than 2013 playoff lebron? I don’t think that’s a particularly hard debate.

So to argue that, based on what has actually happened, 2013 lebron contributes more winning a title than other versions of lebron, you have to argue that his playoff performance overall wasn’t worth a 2 point discount per game kind of

Arguing that it’s a situation thing and he had more spacing is fair, but then 2012 lebron appears, and the same issue arises without that being a valid reason.

2012, 2016, and 2017 bron are all comfortably ahead for me, 2018 lebron for me too but there are more question marks with that although it’s actually his peak for me.

I tend to find more importance in performances in competitive or important series, vs earlier ones where the result isn’t in doubt. At the very least I don’t really care about the first round at all unless it’s competitive. To rephrase that, if a series is close or the opponent is a threat, since 2017 bron just rolled everyone that wasn’t the Warriors over

In terms of pure level of performance 2016 lebron has him beat in that regard, since he annihilated the raptors and the Warriors series considering his absurd defense might’ve been his best series ever.

2017 lebron has absurd consistency. He had 1 legitimately bad game the entire playoffs.

2018 the load was absurd.

2012 has his iconic performance against the Celtics and a less talked about dominant series against the pacers

2013 bron was great vs the pacers and okay vs the Spurs.

On a basis of what happened, I think all these other lebrons are worth more towards winning a title, which is the measuring stick here for title aspiring players

[MyUniBroDavis]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol.

Okay and that’s ur opinion, saying you can’t stand it when someone has a different criteria kinda weird lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

Nothing weird about it, people state their grievances daily. Like saying how can people like strawberry over vanilla. You can still be aware some will prefer strawberry but due to your strong preference, it's puzzling. Everyone on this world does it or has that sentiment about SOMETHING whether its food, politics, religion, female preference etc. Not that serious, if it struck a nerve then convince me with concrete analysis, if not then leave it.

Combined since you edited your post

Saying you disagree with it is fine but not being able to stand it and comparing it to politics is a bit odd lol.

Well if I’m making a my POV why my criteria is mostly based off of playoffs for players who have realistic championship aspirations and deep runs

2017 is probably the easier argument even though I have 2018 higher personally

You can make a reasonable case for 2013 lebron not being a top 5 playoff run for him

2009, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 all are pretty reasonable arguments. 09/12/16/17 are all pretty straightforward. 2018 and 2020 are all more controversial, 2020 as a pick in general because of it truly being a 1A 1B situation, and 2018 in the sense that you’re either really high on it or really low on it with no inbetween.

A really crude argument would be

So to argue that 2013 lebron is a more valuable player towards winning a championship than these lebrons, you have to argue either that the difference is marginal enough than having a higher seed is more important than that difference.

It’s pretty hard to discern how important home court advantage is for a team in the playoffs vs how often teams win because they are better teams.

We could take home court advantage and apply it to game 7s

Off a cursory look, taking the amount of game 7s of total series and home court playoff advantage, it’s about a 16% increase in expected wins give or take

When comparing it from a more practical perspective, and to try to separate quality as much as we can let’s do 4th vs 5th seeds since 2000 (I eyeballed it).

26-20 in favor of the 4th seed vs the 5th seed, with the obvious caveat that the 4th seed would be expected to be marginally better, so under this that 16% works out give or take

What does this practically mean? Well it’s a 41 win team vs a 47-48 win team give or take. From a quick gander at a few past seasons, for teams with a similar schedule it’s a difference of about 2-2.5 points in terms of margin of victory.

So a real lazy look would be to say HCA in a 7 game series is the equivalent of a 2 point advantage.

Now is 2017 playoff lebron worth 2 more points than 2013 playoff lebron? I don’t think that’s a particularly hard debate.

So to argue that, based on what has actually happened, 2013 lebron contributes more winning a title than other versions of lebron, you have to argue that his playoff performance overall wasn’t worth a 2 point discount per game kind of

Arguing that it’s a situation thing and he had more spacing is fair, but then 2012 lebron appears, and the same issue arises without that being a valid reason.

2012, 2016, and 2017 bron are all comfortably ahead for me, 2018 lebron for me too but there are more question marks with that although it’s actually his peak for me.

I tend to find more importance in performances in competitive or important series, vs earlier ones where the result isn’t in doubt. At the very least I don’t really care about the first round at all unless it’s competitive. To rephrase that, if a series is close or the opponent is a threat, since 2017 bron just rolled everyone that wasn’t the Warriors over

In terms of pure level of performance 2016 lebron has him beat in that regard, since he annihilated the raptors and the Warriors series considering his absurd defense might’ve been his best series ever.

2017 lebron has absurd consistency. He had 1 legitimately bad game the entire playoffs.

2018 the load was absurd.

2012 has his iconic performance against the Celtics and a less talked about dominant series against the pacers

2013 bron was great vs the pacers and okay vs the Spurs.

On a basis of what happened, I think all these other lebrons are worth more towards winning a title, which is the measuring stick here for title aspiring players

Also your example is dumb as hell, if someone said “darn I can’t stand when i hear that people like gamer girls” it would be mad weird

[Eagle4]

Okay and that’s ur opinion, saying you can’t stand it when someone has a different criteria kinda weird lol

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

Nothing weird about it, people state their grievances daily. Like saying how can people like strawberry over vanilla. You can still be aware some will prefer strawberry but due to your strong preference, it's puzzling. Everyone on this world does it or has that sentiment about SOMETHING whether its food, politics, religion, female preference etc. Not that serious, if it struck a nerve then convince me with concrete analysis, if not then leave it.

Combined since you edited your post

Saying you disagree with it is fine but not being able to stand it and comparing it to politics is a bit odd lol.

Well if I’m making a my POV why my criteria is mostly based off of playoffs for players who have realistic championship aspirations and deep runs

2017 is probably the easier argument even though I have 2018 higher personally

You can make a reasonable case for 2013 lebron not being a top 5 playoff run for him

2009, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 all are pretty reasonable arguments. 09/12/16/17 are all pretty straightforward. 2018 and 2020 are all more controversial, 2020 as a pick in general because of it truly being a 1A 1B situation, and 2018 in the sense that you’re either really high on it or really low on it with no inbetween.

A really crude argument would be

So to argue that 2013 lebron is a more valuable player towards winning a championship than these lebrons, you have to argue either that the difference is marginal enough than having a higher seed is more important than that difference.

It’s pretty hard to discern how important home court advantage is for a team in the playoffs vs how often teams win because they are better teams.

We could take home court advantage and apply it to game 7s

Off a cursory look, taking the amount of game 7s of total series and home court playoff advantage, it’s about a 16% increase in expected wins give or take

When comparing it from a more practical perspective, and to try to separate quality as much as we can let’s do 4th vs 5th seeds since 2000 (I eyeballed it).

26-20 in favor of the 4th seed vs the 5th seed, with the obvious caveat that the 4th seed would be expected to be marginally better, so under this that 16% works out give or take

What does this practically mean? Well it’s a 41 win team vs a 47-48 win team give or take. From a quick gander at a few past seasons, for teams with a similar schedule it’s a difference of about 2-2.5 points in terms of margin of victory.

So a real lazy look would be to say HCA in a 7 game series is the equivalent of a 2 point advantage.

Now is 2017 playoff lebron worth 2 more points than 2013 playoff lebron? I don’t think that’s a particularly hard debate.

So to argue that, based on what has actually happened, 2013 lebron contributes more winning a title than other versions of lebron, you have to argue that his playoff performance overall wasn’t worth a 2 point discount per game kind of

Arguing that it’s a situation thing and he had more spacing is fair, but then 2012 lebron appears, and the same issue arises without that being a valid reason.

2012, 2016, and 2017 bron are all comfortably ahead for me, 2018 lebron for me too but there are more question marks with that although it’s actually his peak for me.

I tend to find more importance in performances in competitive or important series, vs earlier ones where the result isn’t in doubt. At the very least I don’t really care about the first round at all unless it’s competitive. To rephrase that, if a series is close or the opponent is a threat, since 2017 bron just rolled everyone that wasn’t the Warriors over

In terms of pure level of performance 2016 lebron has him beat in that regard, since he annihilated the raptors and the Warriors series considering his absurd defense might’ve been his best series ever.

2017 lebron has absurd consistency. He had 1 legitimately bad game the entire playoffs.

2018 the load was absurd.

2012 has his iconic performance against the Celtics and a less talked about dominant series against the pacers

2013 bron was great vs the pacers and okay vs the Spurs.

On a basis of what happened, I think all these other lebrons are worth more towards winning a title, which is the measuring stick here for title aspiring players

Appreciated response, gave me more insight and POV but will just have to agree to disagree.

'13 had the total package, offense, defense, peak athleticism and stamina to perform for longer periods of time. '18 Lebron was a monster no doubt but his defense just wasn't at that level as it was in '13. That was also his best 3pt shooting year so I just can't see how one could transport that version of LeBron and say think he'd perform worse than his later seasons.

Lol I'm a heat fan and very passionate about that particular season. You have your opinion i have mine, not something to get your panties in a bunch by someone saying they can't stand something. You act like I'm thinking to kill anyone who has '18 over '13.
We all have our strong opinions, the beauty of being different human beings and posting on a forum is SO we can debate. Was not that serious at all nor did I intend it to be, you just took it the wrong way because you probably thought my post was directed towards you. It's all good

[ardee]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes

Locking up the opposing defense doesn’t make sense. Acting as if 2013 lebron was the best defensive player in nba history is weird

'18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them.

Lebron had shot 1.2/4 (29%) from three leading up to that game that series

He shot 37.5% from three overall in the playoffs assisted 61.1% of the time in those shots

Lebron shot 41.1% from three in the 2017 playoffs and was assisted 38.6% of the time on those shots.

He shot 39% from the midrange that run

Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

But when he’s performing sub par on offense which is where 80% of his impact comes from it’s obviously worth mentioning lmfao

[MyUniBroDavis]

That's nice. I count regular season AND playoffs. Not just playoffs lol. That '13 season was when the Heat has 2nd longest winning streak ever, he and Wade's numbers were phenomenal during that stretch. In the playoffs he was dominant en route to a title.

So let's see, dominant regular season, 2nd in DPOY, MVP, Finals MVP in '13
Vs
Coasting most of '17/'18 regular season to post gaudy offensive stats in the playoffs that didn't lead to a ring.

Easy choice for me.

Nothing weird about it, people state their grievances daily. Like saying how can people like strawberry over vanilla. You can still be aware some will prefer strawberry but due to your strong preference, it's puzzling. Everyone on this world does it or has that sentiment about SOMETHING whether its food, politics, religion, female preference etc. Not that serious, if it struck a nerve then convince me with concrete analysis, if not then leave it.

Combined since you edited your post

Saying you disagree with it is fine but not being able to stand it and comparing it to politics is a bit odd lol.

Well if I’m making a my POV why my criteria is mostly based off of playoffs for players who have realistic championship aspirations and deep runs

2017 is probably the easier argument even though I have 2018 higher personally

You can make a reasonable case for 2013 lebron not being a top 5 playoff run for him

2009, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 all are pretty reasonable arguments. 09/12/16/17 are all pretty straightforward. 2018 and 2020 are all more controversial, 2020 as a pick in general because of it truly being a 1A 1B situation, and 2018 in the sense that you’re either really high on it or really low on it with no inbetween.

A really crude argument would be

So to argue that 2013 lebron is a more valuable player towards winning a championship than these lebrons, you have to argue either that the difference is marginal enough than having a higher seed is more important than that difference.

It’s pretty hard to discern how important home court advantage is for a team in the playoffs vs how often teams win because they are better teams.

We could take home court advantage and apply it to game 7s

Off a cursory look, taking the amount of game 7s of total series and home court playoff advantage, it’s about a 16% increase in expected wins give or take

When comparing it from a more practical perspective, and to try to separate quality as much as we can let’s do 4th vs 5th seeds since 2000 (I eyeballed it).

26-20 in favor of the 4th seed vs the 5th seed, with the obvious caveat that the 4th seed would be expected to be marginally better, so under this that 16% works out give or take

What does this practically mean? Well it’s a 41 win team vs a 47-48 win team give or take. From a quick gander at a few past seasons, for teams with a similar schedule it’s a difference of about 2-2.5 points in terms of margin of victory.

So a real lazy look would be to say HCA in a 7 game series is the equivalent of a 2 point advantage.

Now is 2017 playoff lebron worth 2 more points than 2013 playoff lebron? I don’t think that’s a particularly hard debate.

So to argue that, based on what has actually happened, 2013 lebron contributes more winning a title than other versions of lebron, you have to argue that his playoff performance overall wasn’t worth a 2 point discount per game kind of

Arguing that it’s a situation thing and he had more spacing is fair, but then 2012 lebron appears, and the same issue arises without that being a valid reason.

2012, 2016, and 2017 bron are all comfortably ahead for me, 2018 lebron for me too but there are more question marks with that although it’s actually his peak for me.

I tend to find more importance in performances in competitive or important series, vs earlier ones where the result isn’t in doubt. At the very least I don’t really care about the first round at all unless it’s competitive. To rephrase that, if a series is close or the opponent is a threat, since 2017 bron just rolled everyone that wasn’t the Warriors over

In terms of pure level of performance 2016 lebron has him beat in that regard, since he annihilated the raptors and the Warriors series considering his absurd defense might’ve been his best series ever.

2017 lebron has absurd consistency. He had 1 legitimately bad game the entire playoffs.

2018 the load was absurd.

2012 has his iconic performance against the Celtics and a less talked about dominant series against the pacers

2013 bron was great vs the pacers and okay vs the Spurs.

On a basis of what happened, I think all these other lebrons are worth more towards winning a title, which is the measuring stick here for title aspiring players

Appreciated response, gave me more insight and POV but will just have to agree to disagree.

'13 had the total package, offense, defense, peak athleticism and stamina to perform for longer periods of time. '18 Lebron was a monster no doubt but his defense just wasn't at that level as it was in '13. That was also his best 3pt shooting year so I just can't see how one could transport that version of LeBron and say think he'd perform worse than his later seasons.

Lol I'm a heat fan and very passionate about that particular season. You have your opinion i have mine, not something to get your panties in a bunch by someone saying they can't stand something. You act like I'm thinking to kill anyone who has '18 over '13.
We all have our strong opinions, the beauty of being different human beings and posting on a forum is SO we can debate. Was not that serious at all nor did I intend it to be, you just took it the wrong way because you probably thought my post was directed towards you. It's all good

Oh I’m just snarky (I think that’s the word idk) in general lol don’t think I was taking it personal or anything

Also I’m arguing 2017, 2018 is my peak for him but it’s harder to argue for if that makes sense

I don’t think 2017 was bad on defense either, and he went to a good defender come playoff time

[Eagle4]

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

Because Wade and Bosh were on the team and it was obvious Lebron didn't view Wade as a shell at the time but still a player he could rely on, it's that simple. He clearly showed he still had it in him as well saw Wade come through in that game 4 and 7 despite him struggling with his knee woes. Lebron won a title so he obviously didn't need to score 40+ and the proof of that is him winning the title lol.

Lebron could've taken more the offensive load but if we sit down and use logic in a '13 mindframe Lebron not '22 realgm 20/20 vision goggles then of course he's going to prioritize sharing the load and having faith in his co star that routinely propelled his play in the post season (who even matched or slightly outperformed him the '11 Playoffs). It wasn't like Wade was completely toast (as we saw his great post season performance in '16) it was simply due to his bum knee that would give him issues on/off that season.
So you're implying a less offensively developed '09 Lebron who had one of his most dominant post seasons with lesser cast but some how a more refined, more cerebral '13 had no chance of scoring 40+ if he had more touches and determination? Yh not buying it.

You admitted to Heatles Bron being the superior defensive player and that's where we can agree. Although I have it being a sizable gap and part of the reason why the edge goes to '12-'13 Bron.

[falcolombardi]

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

Because Wade and Bosh were on the team and it was obvious Lebron didn't view Wade as a shell at the time but still a player he could rely on, it's that simple. He clearly showed he still had in him hence Wade coming through in that game 3 and 7 despite struggling with his knee woes. Lebron didn't NEED to score 40 they won a title that year lol.

Lebron could've taken more the offensive load but if we sit down and use logic in a '13 mindframe Lebron not '22 realgm goggles then of course he's going to prioritize sharing the load and having faith in his co star that routinely propelled his play in the post season and even matched or slightly outperformed him the '11 Playoffs. It wasn't like Wade was completely toast (as we saw his great post season performance in '16) it was simply due to his bum knee that would give him issues on/off that season
So you're implying less offensively developed '09 Lebron who had one of his most dominant post season with lesser cast going against an elite defense could do do what he did but then state '13 had no chance of scoring 40+ if he had more touches and determination? Yh not buying it.

You admitted to Heatles Bron being the superior defensive player and that's where we can agree. Although I have it being a sizable gap and part of the reason why the edge goes to '12-'13 Bron.

i dont have a horse in the 13 vs 17 lebron discussion

but lets be real, the 2013 heat (no shame in that, i dont know any team that would) is unlikely to beat the 17 warriors so i wouldnt use the ring to put 2013 lebron over the top

[Eagle4]

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

Because Wade and Bosh were on the team and it was obvious Lebron didn't view Wade as a shell at the time but still a player he could rely on, it's that simple. He clearly showed he still had in him hence Wade coming through in that game 3 and 7 despite struggling with his knee woes. Lebron didn't NEED to score 40 they won a title that year lol.

Lebron could've taken more the offensive load but if we sit down and use logic in a '13 mindframe Lebron not '22 realgm goggles then of course he's going to prioritize sharing the load and having faith in his co star that routinely propelled his play in the post season and even matched or slightly outperformed him the '11 Playoffs. It wasn't like Wade was completely toast (as we saw his great post season performance in '16) it was simply due to his bum knee that would give him issues on/off that season
So you're implying less offensively developed '09 Lebron who had one of his most dominant post season with lesser cast going against an elite defense could do do what he did but then state '13 had no chance of scoring 40+ if he had more touches and determination? Yh not buying it.

You admitted to Heatles Bron being the superior defensive player and that's where we can agree. Although I have it being a sizable gap and part of the reason why the edge goes to '12-'13 Bron.

i dont have a horse in the 13 vs 17 lebron discussion

but lets be real, the 2013 heat (no shame in that, i dont know any team that would) is unlikely to beat the 17 warriors so i wouldnt use the ring to put 2013 lebron over the top

Strawman, never said or implied they could. The question you should be asking is if '13 Bron could put up a similar dominant performance as he did in '18. The answer is of course.

[No-more-rings]

It’s always funny to see people basically blame Wade for Lebron’s struggles in the 2013 finals. Without his game 4 performance they lose in 5 games.

having a bad playoffs =/= not having any great game

wade clearly struggled with his injuries in that postseason, is not his fault, but denying that health affected his play that postseason would be odd when stats and watching clearly showed it

now, that doesnt invalidate arguments against 2013 lebron, many still feel his struggles against the spurs cannot just be explained as wade fault (although the data for that run is eyebrow raising) ans that his lack of trust in his own jumper was a bigger or comparable issue

My point is simple, if 13 Lebron was some goat level player, it shouldn’t really matter if Wade is out there or on the bench. Lebron should’ve done his thing regardless and he didn’t. I get the fit isn’t perfect but that doesn’t exactly help Lebron’s argument either that he can be drug down so much by a supposedly irrelevant player.

[Eagle4]

People keep saying this... but was that really the case? In the games he played in 2017, he had the Cavs on a 57 win pace, the same as 2016. In 2018 in particular he was really good in the RS. He needed to be because once Kyrie left the cupboard was quite bare for the Cavs. He had a 29 PER and finished 2nd in MVP voting.

In 2017 he had the fourth highest TS% of his career, and in 2018 he had the third.

Also, why are you saying "gaudy offensive stats" like it's a negative? He needed to do that for the team to win, especially in 2018.

you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

Watch on YouTube

This is '13 Wade (maybe you're confusing him with '14 where he was REALLY broken down), this is the same Wade that averaged 26 5 and 7 on 53% shooting in Miami's 27 game winning stretch. So why would Lebron think to score 40 every game when he's well aware that he has a co-star in Wade that was capable of shouldering the scoring load (which he did when could hence them winning). If we're being logical then it's obvious Lebron was more concerned with winning plays and focusing on playing DPOY level defense rather than just scoring 50 just because. We're even disregarding Bosh another offensively talented player. If Lebron's MO was to put up big numbers while trying to win a title then he wouldn't have even joined Miami. He already knew what the fate of putting up big numbers and inability of relying on his supporting cast brought him.

[2klegend]

2012 is his peak. That is when his motor, athletic prime, and game IQ finally sync.. He played much smarter.

[70sFan]

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

How can you know that? LeBron played in completely differemt environment back then. In 2018, he was often the biggest and the strongest player on the court. In 2013 finals, he had to face big Spurs frontcourt with GOAT-level rim protector. Those Indiana teams were massive as well. He didn't have the same spacing either.

It's much easier for LeBron to score a lot of points in small-ball era without facing elite defensive teams (and he didn't face any in 2018). It's another matter to face Celtics, Pacers or Spurs from the early 2010s.

Not to mention that Cavs might not need 40 points from James, because he would bring much better defense and overall motor - again, people completely forget about defensive side of the court.

LeBron had amazing postseason run in 2018, it was nothing short of incredible. It doesn't mean he was never capable of doing similar things before. He literally proved he was.

[toodles23]

It’s always funny to see people basically blame Wade for Lebron’s struggles in the 2013 finals. Without his game 4 performance they lose in 5 games.

The Heat were outscored by 54 points in Wade's 255 minutes on the court that series, but when he was off the floor the Heat outscored the Spurs by 49 points in 81 minutes. That series was won because the Lebron + shooters lineups were extremely dominant.

Wade had one very good game in that series in game 4, not coincidentally right after getting his knee drained, but that doesn't come close to making up for the other six.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

How can you know that? LeBron played in completely differemt environment back then. In 2018, he was often the biggest and the strongest player on the court. In 2013 finals, he had to face big Spurs frontcourt with GOAT-level rim protector. Those Indiana teams were massive as well. He didn't have the same spacing either.

It's much easier for LeBron to score a lot of points in small-ball era without facing elite defensive teams (and he didn't face any in 2018). It's another matter to face Celtics, Pacers or Spurs from the early 2010s.

Not to mention that Cavs might not need 40 points from James, because he would bring much better defense and overall motor - again, people completely forget about defensive side of the court.

LeBron had amazing postseason run in 2018, it was nothing short of incredible. It doesn't mean he was never capable of doing similar things before. He literally proved he was.

Agreed on the defenses faced, but bron wasn’t really getting to the rim at will in 2018 as much as I think people think he did, his attempts in the 0-10 foot range were the same as in 2013, with less in the restricted area, the main thing was going crazy in the mid range

The 2018 runs definately in a unique place in terms of the burden he carried, in terms of him really creating everything and having to control every possession

[MyUniBroDavis]

2012 is his peak. That is when his motor, athletic prime, and game IQ finally sync.. He played much smarter.

Compared to young lebron you mean right?

[2klegend]

2012 is his peak. That is when his motor, athletic prime, and game IQ finally sync.. He played much smarter.

Compared to young lebron you mean right?

Yes young Cleveland Lebron played with his superb raw athetlicism. He's a trainwreck but passive. 2012 is when he finally unlock his full potential. He still has his prime athletic ability but his understanding of the game finally syncs. He is no longer passive.

[70sFan]

If you replace 2018 LeBron with the 2013 version, they lose to Boston in the ECF, or possibly even Indiana in round 1. They basically needed 40+ from him to win every game in those two series, and 2013 LeBron was not capable of that.

How can you know that? LeBron played in completely differemt environment back then. In 2018, he was often the biggest and the strongest player on the court. In 2013 finals, he had to face big Spurs frontcourt with GOAT-level rim protector. Those Indiana teams were massive as well. He didn't have the same spacing either.

It's much easier for LeBron to score a lot of points in small-ball era without facing elite defensive teams (and he didn't face any in 2018). It's another matter to face Celtics, Pacers or Spurs from the early 2010s.

Not to mention that Cavs might not need 40 points from James, because he would bring much better defense and overall motor - again, people completely forget about defensive side of the court.

LeBron had amazing postseason run in 2018, it was nothing short of incredible. It doesn't mean he was never capable of doing similar things before. He literally proved he was.

Agreed on the defenses faced, but bron wasn’t really getting to the rim at will in 2018 as much as I think people think he did, his attempts in the 0-10 foot range were the same as in 2013, with less in the restricted area, the main thing was going crazy in the mid range

The 2018 runs definately in a unique place in terms of the burden he carried, in terms of him really creating everything and having to control every possession

If he was getting to the rim as much in 2018 as in 2013, then it proves my point. 2013 James would have a much easier time playing inside than the older version against these defenses.

He was hot from midrange, that's true but Miami LeBron already developed his midrange game.

[ardee]

Yea sorry this is ludicrous, unfortunately we don't have an alternate time machine to definitively say for sure but once again '18 was the not same monster that '13 was. He could score 40 and still have the energy to lock the opposing defense all while playing 40 minutes, '18 wasn't capable of that. His jumper was money in '13 and the driving force to winning in game 7 of the finals that year. Every version of LeBron '09 is capable of putting up beastly offensive numbers, the only difference is how obtained them. Please re-read my initial post and you'll see that my gripe isn't on LeBron offensive abilities but DEFENSE. You know the other half of basketball that tends to get disregarded in these debates. It's no wonder guys like Harden are regarded as superior to a player like Wade on realgm.

His jumper was great in the 2013 REGULAR season, it was very hit or miss in the Playoffs. In the first half of the Finals the Spurs were basically daring him to shoot and he was missing. Yes, it came back in game 7 but it wasn't consistent at all.

In 2017 his jumper was ridiculous and there all season long. He shot 41% from 3 in the Playoffs. It was his best offense ever and as a result the 2017 Cavs were the best Playoff offense of all time (121 ORtg or something ridiculous like that).

If you think he could score 40 every night in 2013... why was he not doing it? The Heat needed it, Wade was a shell. He didn't do it because he couldn't. In 2017 and 2018 his team needed that from him... and he did.

2012 and 2013 was his defensive peak sure, but he was still great on that end in 2017. He was -10.8 Defensive On/Off that year in the Playoffs. Not as good as Miami but good enough that his much superior offense makes up the difference.

SRS wise, I would rate 2013 like 5.5 on offense and 2.0 on defense. 2017 would be like 6.5 on offense and 1.5 on defense.

Watch on YouTube

This is '13 Wade (maybe you're confusing him with '14 where he was REALLY broken down), this is the same Wade that averaged 26 5 and 7 on 53% shooting in Miami's 27 game winning stretch. So why would Lebron think to score 40 every game when he's well aware that he has a co-star in Wade that was capable of shouldering the scoring load (which he did when could hence them winning). If we're being logical then it's obvious Lebron was more concerned with winning plays and focusing on playing DPOY level defense rather than just scoring 50 just because. We're even disregarding Bosh another offensively talented player. If Lebron's MO was to put up big numbers while trying to win a title then he wouldn't have even joined Miami. He already knew what the fate of putting up big numbers and inability of relying on his supporting cast brought him.

Dude you just shared the first superstar game Wade had all Playoffs.

Up until that game Wade was 14.2/4.3/4.8 on 48.5% TS. He was awful. For the whole Playoffs he was at 15.9/4.6/4.8 on 49.8% TS because he had a couple big games towards the end of the Finals.

LeBron was carrying a big load in the 2013 Playoffs, and his production nor his efficiency were close to what he did in 2018, when he carried a BIGGER load.