2006-08 Kobe vs 1996-98 Jordan

[ardee]

I think it's a pretty fair comparison.

Kobe is generally considered the best player in the league for that 3 year stretch (I have him no. 1 all three years). Jordan was also the best in the league for his stretch but the competition was probably closer to him than they were during his younger days.

Jordan was better defensively, sure, but I think you really need to consider that Kobe might have the offensive edge here. Second threepeat MJ's efficiency was not what it used to be.

Here are scoring stats by points per 100 possessions and relative TS%

1996: 42.5 p/100, +4% TS
1997: 41.8 p/100, +3.1% TS
1998: 40.0 p/100, +0.9% TS

For Kobe:

2006: 45.6 p/100, +2.3% TS
2007: 39.7 p/100, +3.9% TS
2008: 36.5 p/100, +3.6% TS

On/Off also looks similar, except the fact that 2006 Kobe is a bit of an outlier:

1997: +8.0
1998: +6.7

2006: +12.5
2007: +6.0
2008: +7.0

I think it's pretty close, especially as I think Kobe has the offensive edge now (Jordan's 3 was basically a product of the shortened line, and really only showed up in the 1996 season, dropped off quite a bit after that, and was gone by '98). I think it's reasonable to prefer either.

[tsherkin]

Add a poll, yeah?

[No-more-rings]

Feels like roughly a wash. Probably go with Jordan if i had to pick though.

[TheGOATRises007]

Would side Jordan, but it's close.

Jordan's turnover economy is the most underrated aspect of his game.

He had a 36.6% usage rate in the '98 playoffs and only had a TOV% of 6.7. That's pretty remarkable. I wonder if anyone has a comparable rate to that. That entire playoff run is underrated.

[falcolombardi]

Would side Jordan, but it's close.

Jordan's turnover economy is the most underrated aspect of his game.

He had a 36.6% usage rate in the '98 playoffs and only had a TOV% of 6.7. That's pretty remarkable. I wonder if anyone has a comparable rate to that. That entire playoff run is underrated.

unironically tracy mcgrady must come close among wings

[TheGOATRises007]

Would side Jordan, but it's close.

Jordan's turnover economy is the most underrated aspect of his game.

He had a 36.6% usage rate in the '98 playoffs and only had a TOV% of 6.7. That's pretty remarkable. I wonder if anyone has a comparable rate to that. That entire playoff run is underrated.

unironically tracy mcgrady must come close among wings

Smaller sample size for the playoffs, but McGrady is a good comp for the RS. He's slightly worse, but his turnover economy is excellent.

Kobe actually favors comparably to T-Mac as well.

His 2005-2006 season is remarkable from that point of view. 9% TOV with a 38.7& usage rate. That season is probably better than most think offensively.

[No-more-rings]

Would side Jordan, but it's close.

Jordan's turnover economy is the most underrated aspect of his game.

He had a 36.6% usage rate in the '98 playoffs and only had a TOV% of 6.7. That's pretty remarkable. I wonder if anyone has a comparable rate to that. That entire playoff run is underrated.

Part of that low turnover economy is due to not really taking on a ton of ball handling duties though.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Would side Jordan, but it's close.

Jordan's turnover economy is the most underrated aspect of his game.

He had a 36.6% usage rate in the '98 playoffs and only had a TOV% of 6.7. That's pretty remarkable. I wonder if anyone has a comparable rate to that. That entire playoff run is underrated.

Jimmy at 29.8% and 6.1% this year

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think I would lean MJ, partially due to his turnover economy and most prominently his defense holding up as well as it did into his 2nd 3 peat.

96-98 MJ in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-33.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2.1%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.3

(Do not have his 96 run for AuPM/G)
97 PS AuPM/G-6.1
98 PS AuPM/G-5.3

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.5

96 RAPTOR PS Total-8.98
97 RAPTOR PS Total-7.93
98 RAPTOR PS Total-7.50


06-08 Kobe in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.6

06 PS AuPM/G-2.5
07 PS AuPM/G-1.3
08 PS AuPM/G-4.4

3-year Backpicks BPM-5.5

06 RAPTOR PS Total-1.09
07 RAPTOR PS Total-2.82
08 RAPTOR PS Total-7.63

I do think Kobe is probably a bit better as a pure passer and may have been a better creator these years (even when you adjust for MJ's incredibly low turnover rates). However, overall, I don't know how meaningful of a difference I would say it is. Playoff samples can sometimes be slanted based off specific opponents' players go against, but I think MJ overall had a tendency to raise his game in the PS that perhaps we have not seen before. The RS data considers MJ a better player, and so does the PS, so I would lean MJ.

Looking at their RS play

96-98 MJ

3-year RS AuPM/G-5.7
3-year Backpicks BPM-6.4
3-year RS On/Off-13.0

96 RAPTOR Total: 10.31
97 RAPTOR Total: 8.65
98 RAPTOR Total: 5.95

06-08 Kobe

3-year RS AuPM/G-4.1
3-year Backpicks BPM-5.2
3-year RS On/Off-9.7

06 RAPTOR Total: 6.06
07 RAPTOR Total: 5.63
08 RAPTOR Total: 7.20

MJ comes out looking like a better RS player in this span as well. Jordan's PS sample is also larger in this time span and instills confidence in me that he really was just that level of guy. I think considering how Kobe and MJ are so close in archetype, these numbers can be somewhat enlightening on how well they did their roles. The fact that I am uncertain if Kobe was really a better offensive player than MJ these years, really helps to swing things in Jordan's direction. The fact that the raw on/off considers MJ to have been comparable to Kobe these years in the lift they were giving to their individual teams while playing with better teammates is another drop in the bucket for his argument.

[ardee]

I think I would lean MJ, partially due to his turnover economy and most prominently his defense holding up as well as it did into his 2nd 3 peat.

96-98 MJ in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-33.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2.1%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.3

(Do not have his 96 run for AuPM/G)
97 PS AuPM/G-6.1
98 PS AuPM/G-5.3

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.5

96 RAPTOR PS Total-8.98
97 RAPTOR PS Total-7.93
98 RAPTOR PS Total-7.50


06-08 Kobe in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.6

06 PS AuPM/G-2.5
07 PS AuPM/G-1.3
08 PS AuPM/G-4.4

3-year Backpicks BPM-5.5

06 RAPTOR PS Total-1.09
07 RAPTOR PS Total-2.82
08 RAPTOR PS Total-7.63

I do think Kobe is probably a bit better as a pure passer and may have been a better creator these years (even when you adjust for MJ's incredibly low turnover rates). However, overall, I don't know how meaningful of a difference I would say it is. Playoff samples can sometimes be slanted based off specific opponents' players go against, but I think MJ overall had a tendency to raise his game in the PS that perhaps we have not seen before. The RS data considers MJ a better player, and so does the PS, so I would lean MJ.

Looking at their RS play

96-98 MJ

3-year RS AuPM/G-5.7
3-year Backpicks BPM-6.4
3-year RS On/Off-13.0

96 RAPTOR Total: 10.31
97 RAPTOR Total: 8.65
98 RAPTOR Total: 5.95

06-08 Kobe

3-year RS AuPM/G-4.1
3-year Backpicks BPM-5.2
3-year RS On/Off-9.7

06 RAPTOR Total: 6.06
07 RAPTOR Total: 5.63
08 RAPTOR Total: 7.20

MJ comes out looking like a better RS player in this span as well. Jordan's PS sample is also larger in this time span and instills confidence in me that he really was just that level of guy. I think considering how Kobe and MJ are so close in archetype, these numbers can be somewhat enlightening on how well they did their roles. The fact that I am uncertain if Kobe was really a better offensive player than MJ these years, really helps to swing things in Jordan's direction. The fact that the raw on/off considers MJ to have been comparable to Kobe these years in the lift they were giving to their individual teams while playing with better teammates is another drop in the bucket for his argument.

How do you calculate pts per 75? I'm assuming it's not just .75 * pts per 100 because those numbers seem to be different.

[Owly]

I think it's a pretty fair comparison.

Kobe is generally considered the best player in the league for that 3 year stretch (I have him no. 1 all three years). Jordan was also the best in the league for his stretch but the competition was probably closer to him than they were during his younger days.

Jordan was better defensively, sure, but I think you really need to consider that Kobe might have the offensive edge here. Second threepeat MJ's efficiency was not what it used to be.

Here are scoring stats by points per 100 possessions and relative TS%

1996: 42.5 p/100, +4% TS
1997: 41.8 p/100, +3.1% TS
1998: 40.0 p/100, +0.9% TS

For Kobe:

2006: 45.6 p/100, +2.3% TS
2007: 39.7 p/100, +3.9% TS
2008: 36.5 p/100, +3.6% TS

On/Off also looks similar, except the fact that 2006 Kobe is a bit of an outlier:

1997: +8.0
1998: +6.7

2006: +12.5
2007: +6.0
2008: +7.0

I think it's pretty close, especially as I think Kobe has the offensive edge now (Jordan's 3 was basically a product of the shortened line, and really only showed up in the 1996 season, dropped off quite a bit after that, and was gone by '98). I think it's reasonable to prefer either.

Jordan '96 on-off per 48: +15.2 ('96 Bulls pace: 91.1).

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think I would lean MJ, partially due to his turnover economy and most prominently his defense holding up as well as it did into his 2nd 3 peat.

96-98 MJ in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-33.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2.1%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.3

(Do not have his 96 run for AuPM/G)
97 PS AuPM/G-6.1
98 PS AuPM/G-5.3

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.5

96 RAPTOR PS Total-8.98
97 RAPTOR PS Total-7.93
98 RAPTOR PS Total-7.50


06-08 Kobe in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.6

06 PS AuPM/G-2.5
07 PS AuPM/G-1.3
08 PS AuPM/G-4.4

3-year Backpicks BPM-5.5

06 RAPTOR PS Total-1.09
07 RAPTOR PS Total-2.82
08 RAPTOR PS Total-7.63

I do think Kobe is probably a bit better as a pure passer and may have been a better creator these years (even when you adjust for MJ's incredibly low turnover rates). However, overall, I don't know how meaningful of a difference I would say it is. Playoff samples can sometimes be slanted based off specific opponents' players go against, but I think MJ overall had a tendency to raise his game in the PS that perhaps we have not seen before. The RS data considers MJ a better player, and so does the PS, so I would lean MJ.

Looking at their RS play

96-98 MJ

3-year RS AuPM/G-5.7
3-year Backpicks BPM-6.4
3-year RS On/Off-13.0

96 RAPTOR Total: 10.31
97 RAPTOR Total: 8.65
98 RAPTOR Total: 5.95

06-08 Kobe

3-year RS AuPM/G-4.1
3-year Backpicks BPM-5.2
3-year RS On/Off-9.7

06 RAPTOR Total: 6.06
07 RAPTOR Total: 5.63
08 RAPTOR Total: 7.20

MJ comes out looking like a better RS player in this span as well. Jordan's PS sample is also larger in this time span and instills confidence in me that he really was just that level of guy. I think considering how Kobe and MJ are so close in archetype, these numbers can be somewhat enlightening on how well they did their roles. The fact that I am uncertain if Kobe was really a better offensive player than MJ these years, really helps to swing things in Jordan's direction. The fact that the raw on/off considers MJ to have been comparable to Kobe these years in the lift they were giving to their individual teams while playing with better teammates is another drop in the bucket for his argument.

How do you calculate pts per 75? I'm assuming it's not just .75 * pts per 100 because those numbers seem to be different.

IA Pts/75 = Inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions (adjusted to a 110 league average).

I don't actually have to calculate. I receive the information as apart of the Backpicks database.

[ardee]

I think I would lean MJ, partially due to his turnover economy and most prominently his defense holding up as well as it did into his 2nd 3 peat.

96-98 MJ in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-33.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2.1%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.3

(Do not have his 96 run for AuPM/G)
97 PS AuPM/G-6.1
98 PS AuPM/G-5.3

3-year Backpicks BPM-7.5

96 RAPTOR PS Total-8.98
97 RAPTOR PS Total-7.93
98 RAPTOR PS Total-7.50


06-08 Kobe in the PS

Inflation Adjusted-29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)

3-year PS On/Off-4.6

06 PS AuPM/G-2.5
07 PS AuPM/G-1.3
08 PS AuPM/G-4.4

3-year Backpicks BPM-5.5

06 RAPTOR PS Total-1.09
07 RAPTOR PS Total-2.82
08 RAPTOR PS Total-7.63

I do think Kobe is probably a bit better as a pure passer and may have been a better creator these years (even when you adjust for MJ's incredibly low turnover rates). However, overall, I don't know how meaningful of a difference I would say it is. Playoff samples can sometimes be slanted based off specific opponents' players go against, but I think MJ overall had a tendency to raise his game in the PS that perhaps we have not seen before. The RS data considers MJ a better player, and so does the PS, so I would lean MJ.

Looking at their RS play

96-98 MJ

3-year RS AuPM/G-5.7
3-year Backpicks BPM-6.4
3-year RS On/Off-13.0

96 RAPTOR Total: 10.31
97 RAPTOR Total: 8.65
98 RAPTOR Total: 5.95

06-08 Kobe

3-year RS AuPM/G-4.1
3-year Backpicks BPM-5.2
3-year RS On/Off-9.7

06 RAPTOR Total: 6.06
07 RAPTOR Total: 5.63
08 RAPTOR Total: 7.20

MJ comes out looking like a better RS player in this span as well. Jordan's PS sample is also larger in this time span and instills confidence in me that he really was just that level of guy. I think considering how Kobe and MJ are so close in archetype, these numbers can be somewhat enlightening on how well they did their roles. The fact that I am uncertain if Kobe was really a better offensive player than MJ these years, really helps to swing things in Jordan's direction. The fact that the raw on/off considers MJ to have been comparable to Kobe these years in the lift they were giving to their individual teams while playing with better teammates is another drop in the bucket for his argument.

How do you calculate pts per 75? I'm assuming it's not just .75 * pts per 100 because those numbers seem to be different.

IA Pts/75 = Inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions (adjusted to a 110 league average).

I don't actually have to calculate. I receive the information as apart of the Backpicks database.

Is that a part of his Patreon?

[LukaTheGOAT]

How do you calculate pts per 75? I'm assuming it's not just .75 * pts per 100 because those numbers seem to be different.

IA Pts/75 = Inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions (adjusted to a 110 league average).

I don't actually have to calculate. I receive the information as apart of the Backpicks database.

Is that a part of his Patreon?

Yes it is. This video might be helpful. What you really want starts at the 8 minute mark

Watch on YouTube

[JordansBulls]

It's Jordan once you consider everything. 3x finals mvp, 2x league mvp, scoring champ each year, all nba 1st team and defense.