Tatum VS Luka

[Bob8]

Being good at both ends is somewhat overrated. Remember what league we're talking about. They didn't start honoring defense until the 1980s. DPOY is nowhere near as respected as MVP and you don't even need to play a lick of defense to win MVP. So it goes without saying that Tatum would be more of a problem if he was better offensively. He'd also make more money and be more of a superstar and more successful in general. The way Tatum is balanced right now he has the look of a solid #2 option on a great team.

Being good at both ends is overrated?? Do you not watch basketball??

Every series in the playoffs has been about exploiting the weak defender. It’s the reason the Celtics are here. It’s the reason guys like Duncan Robinson couldn’t get off the bench when the Heat really needed outside shooting. It’s the reason the Mavs upset the suns by exploiting CP3.

Being good on the defensive end has never been more important. If you can’t defend, you’ll be hunted at will.

Also solid look of a number #2 on a really good team? He’s the number 1 on a team that is 1-0 up in the NBA finals. I’m not saying he’s better than Luka, but you have to be delusional to say something like that. This site has turned to ****.

Being good on defense has never been more important and at more of a premium-


Btw- the rest of us know this...even the mavs and Luka know this - MJ, Kobe and Lebron are 3 of the best wings ever and would be great even today because they were great both ways. It’s why I look at a 6’10” Tatum and I see Giannis upside and a 6’7” Luka and see Harden...both great upsides but Giannis upside is infinitely higher than hardens cause defense....

If Luka wants to be an all time great he can’t avg 28 pts a game in reg season- ramp it up to 32 in playoffs-and be a chubby bad defender- luka needs to be a defensive player to be the best. No one doubts if Luka can drop 40...but Tatum and Giannis can drop 40 as well while playing strong all nba level defense...

How can you see Harden being his upside, if Luka's playoffs average is better than Harden's best single playoffs season? The biggest difference between them is, Luka is playing much better in playoffs and Harden much worse.

Tatum might drop 40, but he's worse in everything in playoffs.

[Archx]

I think the fact that Luka couldn’t guard Poole, Wiggins, Otto, Kuminga, Klay or curry on the perimeter or Looney or Dray in the post and Tatum at 6’10” can do alllll of that at some point in a game makes a huge difference-

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I won’t even disagree with that If the stats bear that out- I’m saying that Tatum is bigger &-fitter while just as young and a better defender than Luka. That’s not in debate right? Luka is not the defender that Tatum is. And if the Dallas defense was better maybe they are still playing....that’s all..I’m not saying anything about other defenders on dallas or Boston -

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

[SelfishPlayer]

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I won’t even disagree with that If the stats bear that out- I’m saying that Tatum is bigger &-fitter while just as young and a better defender than Luka. That’s not in debate right? Luka is not the defender that Tatum is. And if the Dallas defense was better maybe they are still playing....that’s all..I’m not saying anything about other defenders on dallas or Boston -

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

[Bob8]

Here's a simple question for you. Is your judgment of a player's game based only on his shooting percentage? Because that is a really simplistic way of judging a player's game.

I do not think that Tatum had a great game. The reason I think that is because he had a horrible shooting night. However, I don't think he had a horrible game either. The reason I think that is because he managed double teams well, had a bunch of assists with few turnovers, and played at a high level defensively.

When this thread was bumped after Game 1, it was done to show how bad of a game Tatum had. But overall he had a decent game - horrible shooting but great playmaking and great defense.

I have a simple question too. Do you believe that average shooters shooting 65% for 3 was something that happens only now and then or the reason for this insane % was Tatum's great playmaking? If they continue to shoot like that, it's game over for GSW. 0:4.

Can you please rank Celtics' players in game 1?

Rewatch Q4, where Celtics turned game around. There you will find true heroes.

It was not only 12 points on horrible shooting, it was 0 points in last 16 minutes.

If we compare Curry vs. Tatum, Steph totally outplayed Tatum, but was -9, because other Celtics outplayed Warriors.

Answer my question first and then I'll gladly answer yours. Is your judgment of a player's game based only on his shooting percentage? Because that seems to be the only thing you're using to judge Tatum's Game 1 performance

I have already answered to you. 13 assists is great, but number is inflated by incredible shooting of role players. Boston is playing great D, but again, Tatum has a lot help there too. Smart is DPOY, Williams great rim protector, Brown incredibly physically gifted defender... It's not like Tatum is Alpha and Omega there.

On the other hand 12 points with 3/17 shooting is disastrous. Star player not scoring in last 16 minutes of the game is something rarely to be seen and should be criticised. Luka was 28/9/6; 10/28 in game 5. And we all agreed, Luka and Kidd included, that it was bad game for him. Yes Celtics has won the game, but not because of Tatum, who was mostly invisible in Q4, but because of Brown and some other Celtics players going nuclear in Q4.

I'm not saying that bad shooting night means anything in long term. It doesn't. But saying that he had solid game 1 is laughable. We should give credit to Brown, White, Crawford, Smart, not Tatum.

[Archx]

I won’t even disagree with that If the stats bear that out- I’m saying that Tatum is bigger &-fitter while just as young and a better defender than Luka. That’s not in debate right? Luka is not the defender that Tatum is. And if the Dallas defense was better maybe they are still playing....that’s all..I’m not saying anything about other defenders on dallas or Boston -

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

I never said Luka is a better defender than Tatum. And i also said many times he needs to get better on defense, that is all true. But our discussion was not about Tatum vs Luka.

You were trying to convince me that Mavs lost to GSW because of Doncic and we had a back and forth discussion when i tried to show and tell you that Mavs problems go beyond Doncic's defense. If he was 2nd best (1v1) Mavs defender and had top defensive OVERALL stats by all metrics, what the hell did the others do then? You never mentioned this even once. We saw the graphics, GSW supposedly scored 95 directly vs him yet Luka scored 160 in response. In general speaking, how is it his fault that they lost?

You brought up DRTG from NBA.com for the entire playoffs... Brunson 114, Bullock 113, DFS 113, Maxi 115, Dinwiddie 111.6 and Luka 111.4. Like i said, apart from DRTG, Luka had almost all best overall defensive stats of them all.

One of the examples. This is the game that Mavs lost by 9 points. You seriously want to convince me that he's soley responsible that they lost vs GSW in this game?

Read on Twitter

Another example directly from ESPN.

The one sizable difference is Doncic's brutal efficiency. He's generating 121.4 points per chance against the Warriors on that high pick-and-roll, according to Second Spectrum, putting Harden (91.6 points per chance during those conference finals) to shame. Harden negotiated each possession so that it was played on his terms. With Doncic, there's no negotiation. His size -- 6-foot-7 -- and vision give him an implicit advantage over any defender.

Against Doncic, the Warriors deploy largely the same defensive schemes based on the same overriding principles they threw at Harden.

Despite all of that Harden still won more games vs GSW. You seriously want to convince me that Harden played Jordan type of defense in that series?

[SelfishPlayer]

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

I never said Luka is a better defender than Tatum. And i also said many times he needs to get better on defense, that is all true. But our discussion was not about Tatum vs Luka.

You were trying to convince me that Mavs lost to GSW because of Doncic and we had a back and forth discussion when i tried to show and tell you that Mavs problems go beyond Doncic's defense. If he was 2nd best (1v1) Mavs defender and had top defensive OVERALL stats by all metrics, what the hell did the others do then? You never mentioned this even once. We saw the graphics, GSW supposedly scored 95 directly vs him yet Luka scored 160 in response. In general speaking, how is it his fault that they lost?

You brought up DRTG from NBA.com for the entire playoffs... Brunson 114, Bullock 113, DFS 113, Maxi 115, Dinwiddie 111.6 and Luka 111.4. Like i said, apart from DRTG, Luka had almost all best overall defensive stats of them all.

One of the examples. This is the game that Mavs lost by 9 points. You seriously want to convince me that he's soley responsible that they lost vs GSW in this game?

Read on Twitter

Another example directly from ESPN.

The one sizable difference is Doncic's brutal efficiency. He's generating 121.4 points per chance against the Warriors on that high pick-and-roll, according to Second Spectrum, putting Harden (91.6 points per chance during those conference finals) to shame. Harden negotiated each possession so that it was played on his terms. With Doncic, there's no negotiation. His size -- 6-foot-7 -- and vision give him an implicit advantage over any defender.

Against Doncic, the Warriors deploy largely the same defensive schemes based on the same overriding principles they threw at Harden.

Despite all of that Harden still won more games vs GSW. You seriously want to convince me that Harden played Jordan type of defense in that series?

No NBA championship has ever been won playing hero ball where the hero is a defensive liability is a false claim?

[Archx]

Spoiler:

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

I never said Luka is a better defender than Tatum. And i also said many times he needs to get better on defense, that is all true. But our discussion was not about Tatum vs Luka.

You were trying to convince me that Mavs lost to GSW because of Doncic and we had a back and forth discussion when i tried to show and tell you that Mavs problems go beyond Doncic's defense. If he was 2nd best (1v1) Mavs defender and had top defensive OVERALL stats by all metrics, what the hell did the others do then? You never mentioned this even once. We saw the graphics, GSW supposedly scored 95 directly vs him yet Luka scored 160 in response. In general speaking, how is it his fault that they lost?

You brought up DRTG from NBA.com for the entire playoffs... Brunson 114, Bullock 113, DFS 113, Maxi 115, Dinwiddie 111.6 and Luka 111.4. Like i said, apart from DRTG, Luka had almost all best overall defensive stats of them all.

One of the examples. This is the game that Mavs lost by 9 points. You seriously want to convince me that he's soley responsible that they lost vs GSW in this game?

Read on Twitter

Another example directly from ESPN.

The one sizable difference is Doncic's brutal efficiency. He's generating 121.4 points per chance against the Warriors on that high pick-and-roll, according to Second Spectrum, putting Harden (91.6 points per chance during those conference finals) to shame. Harden negotiated each possession so that it was played on his terms. With Doncic, there's no negotiation. His size -- 6-foot-7 -- and vision give him an implicit advantage over any defender.

Against Doncic, the Warriors deploy largely the same defensive schemes based on the same overriding principles they threw at Harden.

Despite all of that Harden still won more games vs GSW. You seriously want to convince me that Harden played Jordan type of defense in that series?

No NBA championship has ever been won playing hero ball where the hero is a defensive liability is a false claim?

Now you're trolling me. You keep making stuff up by ignoring the context and reality.

But i'll bite..

How many all nba defensive teams and DPOY awards does Curry have? Most people have him in Top 20 or even 15 player of all time. Iggy even won finals MVP over him because of defense on Lebron.
Dirk himself talked about how bad he was on defense and even though he got better over the years, in his championship run still had Matrix, Chandler and Kidd to help him out big time.

Point is, it's incredibly hard to win in playoffs and to win a ring, most of the time it needs to be a true team effort and you need the right pieces and some luck. Mavs play the way they play because of how the team is constructed (Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same), they still managed to do really good this season.

[MrGoat]

I won’t even disagree with that If the stats bear that out- I’m saying that Tatum is bigger &-fitter while just as young and a better defender than Luka. That’s not in debate right? Luka is not the defender that Tatum is. And if the Dallas defense was better maybe they are still playing....that’s all..I’m not saying anything about other defenders on dallas or Boston -

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

"Horrendous defensive rating of 111.4"? Wrong era. The Mavs had a defensive rating of 113.3 in the playoffs as a team so what you're saying is they were actually better defensively with Luka on the court, 7 teams in the playoffs were worse than the Mavs' 113.3. The league average defensive rating was 112.0. Golden State's defensive rating in the playoffs is 112.0, so worse than Luka's individual rating. 111.4 may have been horrendous a few years ago, it isn't now

[CobraCommander]

The reason why Luka defends more shots is because he's specifically targeted on defense. Teams try to put Luka on an island because he's a liability. Luka's DFG% is 48% in the playoffs which is the highest amongst players that defended at least 17 field goals per game (Luka is at 16.9). That's pretty outrageous. Tatum's DFG% on the other hand is 41.1% which is very good.

It's also worth noting that Tatum is 3rd in the league in the post season in defensive win shares. Luka is at 50th in the league.

Is 3 better than 50? Just curious?

You know I find it weird that

A:Jason Kidd has been openly lying to Luka about his defensive rank to gently insult Luka to get his extremely high competitive nature to kick in on the defensive at the same level it does on offensive because Kidd knows Luka can and should be better defensively.

B: Luka says it’s a priority for him to get in better shape and player much much better defense because Luka is smart enough to know his defense sucks- and really really sucks by comparison to prime Lebron, MJ, Kobe and Giannis

C: the only thing Luka had over trae young during the reg season was team wins and DEFENSE - Trae did exactly everything better % wise and counting wise on offense.... yet Luka 1st team nba and Trae 3rd team...

But with alll that Lukas fans are so committed to defending Luka-that they are willing to contradict Luka himself...

This is not in debate—— Luka is a worse defender than Tatum...no arguing this


Btw - when Luka comes in in shape and plays better defense the conversation about mvp is going to be very different...he will be up there and the league will have a true big 3 in the mvp running....think about how crazy it is that luKa with his worse shooting %s than Lebron or Harden is improved fitness and defense away from being one of the 3 best players on earth....for possibly the next 10 years....insane

[CobraCommander]

Spoiler:

I never said Luka is a better defender than Tatum. And i also said many times he needs to get better on defense, that is all true. But our discussion was not about Tatum vs Luka.

You were trying to convince me that Mavs lost to GSW because of Doncic and we had a back and forth discussion when i tried to show and tell you that Mavs problems go beyond Doncic's defense. If he was 2nd best (1v1) Mavs defender and had top defensive OVERALL stats by all metrics, what the hell did the others do then? You never mentioned this even once. We saw the graphics, GSW supposedly scored 95 directly vs him yet Luka scored 160 in response. In general speaking, how is it his fault that they lost?

You brought up DRTG from NBA.com for the entire playoffs... Brunson 114, Bullock 113, DFS 113, Maxi 115, Dinwiddie 111.6 and Luka 111.4. Like i said, apart from DRTG, Luka had almost all best overall defensive stats of them all.

One of the examples. This is the game that Mavs lost by 9 points. You seriously want to convince me that he's soley responsible that they lost vs GSW in this game?

Read on Twitter

Another example directly from ESPN.

The one sizable difference is Doncic's brutal efficiency. He's generating 121.4 points per chance against the Warriors on that high pick-and-roll, according to Second Spectrum, putting Harden (91.6 points per chance during those conference finals) to shame. Harden negotiated each possession so that it was played on his terms. With Doncic, there's no negotiation. His size -- 6-foot-7 -- and vision give him an implicit advantage over any defender.

Against Doncic, the Warriors deploy largely the same defensive schemes based on the same overriding principles they threw at Harden.

Despite all of that Harden still won more games vs GSW. You seriously want to convince me that Harden played Jordan type of defense in that series?

No NBA championship has ever been won playing hero ball where the hero is a defensive liability is a false claim?

Now you're trolling me. You keep making stuff up by ignoring the context and reality.

But i'll bite..

How many all nba defensive teams and DPOY awards does Curry have? Most people have him in Top 20 or even 15 player of all time. Iggy even won finals MVP over him because of defense on Lebron.
Dirk himself talked about how bad he was on defense and even though he got better over the years, in his championship run still had Matrix, Chandler and Kidd to help him out big time.

Point is, it's incredibly hard to win in playoffs and to win a ring, most of the time it needs to be a true team effort and you need the right pieces and some luck. Mavs play the way they play because of how the team is constructed (Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same), they still managed to do really good this season.

Dirk was my favorite player for a long time and The only thing he lacked was defense...it’s why people speak higher of KD than Dirk.

The era Luka in and at his size—— the expectation for a young elite wing is that he can guard his position. Luka IS going to be good on defense in his career. He has made improvements....we all see how out fo shape he is - do we really expect him to continue to be a lesser version of his potential when he is watching Tatum and Wiggins still playing? If Luka wants to be great - he will be... I’m done doubting this guy. But I’m not giving him credit till he does it...I know he can give you 40....now do it on the other end - which I would wager he does next year

[3toheadmelo]

The reason why Luka defends more shots is because he's specifically targeted on defense. Teams try to put Luka on an island because he's a liability. Luka's DFG% is 48% in the playoffs which is the highest amongst players that defended at least 17 field goals per game (Luka is at 16.9). That's pretty outrageous. Tatum's DFG% on the other hand is 41.1% which is very good.

It's also worth noting that Tatum is 3rd in the league in the post season in defensive win shares. Luka is at 50th in the league.

Is 3 better than 50? Just curious?

You know I find it weird that

A:Jason Kidd has been openly lying to Luka about his defensive rank to gently insult Luka to get his extremely high competitive nature to kick in on the defensive at the same level it does on offensive because Kidd knows Luka can and should be better defensively.

B: Luka says it’s a priority for him to get in better shape and player much much better defense because Luka is smart enough to know his defense sucks- and really really sucks by comparison to prime Lebron, MJ, Kobe and Giannis

C: the only thing Luka had over trae young during the reg season was team wins and DEFENSE - Trae did exactly everything better % wise and counting wise on offense.... yet Luka 1st team nba and Trae 3rd team...

But with alll that Lukas fans are so committed to defending Luka-that they are willing to contradict Luka himself...

This is not in debate—— Luka is a worse defender than Tatum...no arguing this


Btw - when Luka comes in in shape and plays better defense the conversation about mvp is going to be very different...he will be up there and the league will have a true big 3 in the mvp running....think about how crazy it is that luKa with his worse shooting %s than Lebron or Harden is improved fitness and defense away from being one of the 3 best players on earth....for possibly the next 10 years....insane

Yep Luka himself says he needs to be better on defense. So I am not sure why his stans think otherwise. Kidd actually called Luka out in the playoffs also. I think he was getting tired of Luka's lack of effort. I like how he brought up Dirk cause people in this thread are trying to use Dirk as an example for not trying on defense like Luka, but Dirk even got better.

Read on Twitter

It really is crazy how scary Luka can be if he got himself in shape and tried to play defense. Would def be one of the best players to ever play the game. But for now there are questions if he even wants to be that good due to his meh work ethic and not trying on defense. Tatum to me seems way more serious about being the best and more importantly, winning.

[CoP]

I have a simple question too. Do you believe that average shooters shooting 65% for 3 was something that happens only now and then or the reason for this insane % was Tatum's great playmaking? If they continue to shoot like that, it's game over for GSW. 0:4.

Can you please rank Celtics' players in game 1?

Rewatch Q4, where Celtics turned game around. There you will find true heroes.

It was not only 12 points on horrible shooting, it was 0 points in last 16 minutes.

If we compare Curry vs. Tatum, Steph totally outplayed Tatum, but was -9, because other Celtics outplayed Warriors.

Answer my question first and then I'll gladly answer yours. Is your judgment of a player's game based only on his shooting percentage? Because that seems to be the only thing you're using to judge Tatum's Game 1 performance

I have already answered to you. 13 assists is great, but number is inflated by incredible shooting of role players. Boston is playing great D, but again, Tatum has a lot help there too. Smart is DPOY, Williams great rim protector, Brown incredibly physically gifted defender... Is not like Tatum is Alpha and Omega there.

On the other hand 12 points with 3/17 shooting is disastrous. Star player not scoring in last 16 minutes of the game is something rarely to be seen and should be criticised. Luka was 28/9/6; 10/28. And we all agreed, Luka and Kidd included , that it was bad game for him. Yes Celtics has won the game, but not because of Tatum, who was mostly invisible in Q4, but because of Brown and some other Celtics players going nuclear in Q4.

So then your answer is basically yes. You think Tatum had a bad game because of his 3/17 shooting line, and anything he did well otherwise (a lot of assists and few turnovers vs. double teams + very good defending) don't really matter because you don't want them to matter.

When you say that the Celtics won the game, but not because of Tatum, it shows how you view the game of basketball, through the lens of specific aspects of individual players' performances. That's really simplistic analysis. The Celtics won because Horford, White and Smart shot so well, in addition to Tatum hardly turning it over and finding open shots for his teammates despite being doubled on nearly every possession, in addition to the entire team bearing down and playing great defense in the last quarter, in addition to Udoka calling smart timeouts in the 4th when up in order to set up easy looks for the team, in addition to several other factors.

Tatum really hurt the team's chance to win with his poor shooting. But he helped the team's chance to win with his ability to handle double teams without turning it over, finding the open man for open or wide open shots, and playing great defense. Because his shooting was so incredibly bad, it all kind of balanced out, and he had, in my opinion, an OK game. White, Smart and Horford all had better games than he did.

I will say this, Tatum's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the Finals was no worse than Luka's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the WCF, when he went 6/18 shooting with 7 turnovers. And yet this thread was bumped after Game 1 of the Finals as a knock against Tatum, but not after Game 1 of the WCF as a knock against Luka. Why? Because of Luka fans and their double standards.

[1st banana]

What do you think happens with Mavs D, if they have DPOY and rim protector instead Brunson/Powell?

Tatum wouldn't change anything, because they still couldn't defend and would rebound even worse. 0:4 against Suns.

I think the fact that Luka couldn’t guard Poole, Wiggins, Otto, Kuminga, Klay or curry on the perimeter or Looney or Dray in the post and Tatum at 6’10” can do alllll of that at some point in a game makes a huge difference-

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I’m sorry did you just compare kevon looney to shaq? lol

[sunsbg]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

[Swish1906]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

Weirdly Luka has allready a gazillion more championship trophies.

[sunsbg]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

Weirdly Luka has allready a gazillion more championship trophies.

Yeah, playing a team ball. Weirdly.

[SelfishPlayer]

Spoiler:

I never said Luka is a better defender than Tatum. And i also said many times he needs to get better on defense, that is all true. But our discussion was not about Tatum vs Luka.

You were trying to convince me that Mavs lost to GSW because of Doncic and we had a back and forth discussion when i tried to show and tell you that Mavs problems go beyond Doncic's defense. If he was 2nd best (1v1) Mavs defender and had top defensive OVERALL stats by all metrics, what the hell did the others do then? You never mentioned this even once. We saw the graphics, GSW supposedly scored 95 directly vs him yet Luka scored 160 in response. In general speaking, how is it his fault that they lost?

You brought up DRTG from NBA.com for the entire playoffs... Brunson 114, Bullock 113, DFS 113, Maxi 115, Dinwiddie 111.6 and Luka 111.4. Like i said, apart from DRTG, Luka had almost all best overall defensive stats of them all.

One of the examples. This is the game that Mavs lost by 9 points. You seriously want to convince me that he's soley responsible that they lost vs GSW in this game?

Read on Twitter

Another example directly from ESPN.

The one sizable difference is Doncic's brutal efficiency. He's generating 121.4 points per chance against the Warriors on that high pick-and-roll, according to Second Spectrum, putting Harden (91.6 points per chance during those conference finals) to shame. Harden negotiated each possession so that it was played on his terms. With Doncic, there's no negotiation. His size -- 6-foot-7 -- and vision give him an implicit advantage over any defender.

Against Doncic, the Warriors deploy largely the same defensive schemes based on the same overriding principles they threw at Harden.

Despite all of that Harden still won more games vs GSW. You seriously want to convince me that Harden played Jordan type of defense in that series?

No NBA championship has ever been won playing hero ball where the hero is a defensive liability is a false claim?

Now you're trolling me. You keep making stuff up by ignoring the context and reality.

But i'll bite..

How many all nba defensive teams and DPOY awards does Curry have? Most people have him in Top 20 or even 15 player of all time. Iggy even won finals MVP over him because of defense on Lebron.
Dirk himself talked about how bad he was on defense and even though he got better over the years, in his championship run still had Matrix, Chandler and Kidd to help him out big time.

Point is, it's incredibly hard to win in playoffs and to win a ring, most of the time it needs to be a true team effort and you need the right pieces and some luck. Mavs play the way they play because of how the team is constructed (Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same), they still managed to do really good this season.

You didn't name a single player that played hero ball, was a defensive liability, and won a championship. Dirk and Curry play off the ball, Dirk far more than Curry.

[SelfishPlayer]

That is true and i agree with that. But SelfishPlayer and some other people are making many false claims even though i tried my best to show via stats and eye test that Mavs did basically all they could with their limited personal.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka is a false claim? Luka was targeted defensively during the playoffs is a false claim? Luka had a horrendous 111.4 defensive rating during the playoffs is a false claim?

"Horrendous defensive rating of 111.4"? Wrong era. The Mavs had a defensive rating of 113.3 in the playoffs as a team so what you're saying is they were actually better defensively with Luka on the court, 7 teams in the playoffs were worse than the Mavs' 113.3. The league average defensive rating was 112.0. Golden State's defensive rating in the playoffs is 112.0, so worse than Luka's individual rating. 111.4 may have been horrendous a few years ago, it isn't now

Jayson Tatum's defensive rating in the playoffs is 104.

[Archx]

I think the fact that Luka couldn’t guard Poole, Wiggins, Otto, Kuminga, Klay or curry on the perimeter or Looney or Dray in the post and Tatum at 6’10” can do alllll of that at some point in a game makes a huge difference-

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I’m sorry did you just compare kevon looney to shaq? lol

Lol, no? If a PG needed to defend a C scenario.

You didn't name a single player that played hero ball, was a defensive liability, and won a championship. Dirk and Curry play off the ball, Dirk far more than Curry.

It's so frustrating having any reasonable discussions with you... Let me ask you this, how many Mavs games did you even watch in the past 4 years, or... this season?

Mavs constructed the team as it is. How differently can they play if people keep telling you that Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same as Doncic. But the difference is their production doesn't even come close to his.

[Bob8]

Answer my question first and then I'll gladly answer yours. Is your judgment of a player's game based only on his shooting percentage? Because that seems to be the only thing you're using to judge Tatum's Game 1 performance

I have already answered to you. 13 assists is great, but number is inflated by incredible shooting of role players. Boston is playing great D, but again, Tatum has a lot help there too. Smart is DPOY, Williams great rim protector, Brown incredibly physically gifted defender... Is not like Tatum is Alpha and Omega there.

On the other hand 12 points with 3/17 shooting is disastrous. Star player not scoring in last 16 minutes of the game is something rarely to be seen and should be criticised. Luka was 28/9/6; 10/28. And we all agreed, Luka and Kidd included , that it was bad game for him. Yes Celtics has won the game, but not because of Tatum, who was mostly invisible in Q4, but because of Brown and some other Celtics players going nuclear in Q4.

So then your answer is basically yes. You think Tatum had a bad game because of his 3/17 shooting line, and anything he did well otherwise (a lot of assists and few turnovers vs. double teams + very good defending) don't really matter because you don't want them to matter.

When you say that the Celtics won the game, but not because of Tatum, it shows how you view the game of basketball, through the lens of specific aspects of individual players' performances. That's really simplistic analysis. The Celtics won because Horford, White and Smart shot so well, in addition to Tatum hardly turning it over and finding open shots for his teammates despite being doubled on nearly every possession, in addition to the entire team bearing down and playing great defense in the last quarter, in addition to Udoka calling smart timeouts in the 4th when up in order to set up easy looks for the team, in addition to several other factors.

Tatum really hurt the team's chance to win with his poor shooting. But he helped the team's chance to win with his ability to handle double teams without turning it over, finding the open man for open or wide open shots, and playing great defense. Because his shooting was so incredibly bad, it all kind of balanced out, and he had, in my opinion, an OK game. White, Smart and Horford all had better games than he did.

I will say this, Tatum's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the Finals was no worse than Luka's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the WCF, when he went 6/18 shooting with 7 turnovers. And yet this thread was bumped after Game 1 of the Finals as a knock against Tatum, but not after Game 1 of the WCF as a knock against Luka. Why? Because of Luka fans and their double standards.

I totally agree that Luka had disastrous game 1 and I said he had bad game 5. The difference is that nobody defended, at least I don't know about it, those 2 bad games.

Standard for superstars are a bit different than normal players. I don't believe that Tatum being 5 best Celtics player is enough.

I said that Tatum didn't help much to win the game because he was almost invisible, 1 assists and 3 missed shots, in first 7 minutes of Q4, when the game was turned around.