Jayson Tatum was -36 (The worst by any player in a Finals game)

SUPERVILLAIN · Post #1 » by **SUPERVILLAIN** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 2:54 am

Tatum is one of the best player in the league right now. No debate. His raw stats tonight were very solid. But his +/- was unquestionably brutal.

So here's a question. What's your take on +/- stats in general?

Raw stats:
28 PTS
6 REB
3 AST
8-19 FG
6-9 3PT

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ceiling raiser · Post #2 » by **ceiling raiser** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:00 am

In general +/- stats are interesting as they’re orthogonal to the box score. Additional information provides more context to player performance.

However raw +/- can be a function of team rotations in a small sample; in particular playoff lineups are so specialized that they can be noisy.

Pure, non-prior-informed RAPM is probably the single best metric to me, still.

gorz · Post #3 » by **gorz** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:03 am

But did he have a bad game?

Post #4 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:05 am

raw plus minus in small sample sizes means absolutely nothing other than a simple recording of the score when said player was in the game. Any evaluation of a player based on it is completely and utterly worthless.

NZB2323 · Post #5 » by **NZB2323** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:08 am

+/- should be used for large sample sizes of lineups, not individual players for one game.

Ballerhogger · Post #6 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:09 am

28pts 8-19 ? What’s so bad about that ?

SUPERVILLAIN · Post #7 » by **SUPERVILLAIN** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:09 am

gorz wrote:But did he have a bad game?

28 PTS
6 REB
3 AST
8-19 FG
6-9 3PT

He was very solid.

Woodsanity · Post #8 » by **Woodsanity** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:10 am

He is vastly overrated but one game +/- is a worthless stat.

bearadonisdna · Post #9 » by **bearadonisdna** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:11 am

Told ya’ll at halftime , he was shooting better but playing worse hurting his team with bad reads

jfs1000d · Post #10 » by **jfs1000d** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:13 am

Just quirky occurrence. Tatum wasn’t good decision making and seems oddly passive driving to the hoop.

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BayArea408415 · Post #11 » by **BayArea408415** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:14 am

His teammates didn’t shoot 80% from 3 in the 4th quarter like Game 1 where he picked up a bunch of assists. He was playing well for most of the first half and alright early in the 3rd.

scrabbarista · Post #12 » by **scrabbarista** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:14 am

I always think it's hilarious how the first response when +/- is brought up is "not a one-game stat," but no one ever says that literally every stat is not a one-game stat.

I think +/- (especially the adjusted ones and the combination of On-Court and On-Off) is awesome and useful and complementary to the eye test. It's just funny that we love it in large samples but not small ones. Like, that should be every stat, right?

JimmyFromNz · Post #13 » by **JimmyFromNz** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:19 am

+/- is too unreliable game - game.

Though I think it's more reflective of Jayson's game than his boxscore stats.

His 3 ball was on, hence that has bumped his points up, but really he wasn't good. He was passive, took poor shots within the arc, had a couple of bad fouls, didn't get back on defense when stripped, and his 4 turnovers in the first half lead to fastbreak chances each time. Went shotless for the first 6 minutes of the 3rd quarter when we getting blown out...

There's no replacement for watching the game and understanding what you need out of the players at specific points during it and how it impacts a team - he wasn't that tonight. Though neither was any Celtic except 1st half Derrick White.

picc · Post #14 » by **picc** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:26 am

He wasnt good imo. Well, good in the first half because his three was going in, then invisible in the second. He’s a very strange player. Can explode at any point but I just dont get that game manager feeling from him. Somethings missing despite all that talent.

Post #15 » by **Capn'O** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:33 am

3toheadmelo down bad

Castle Black · Post #16 » by **Castle Black** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:37 am

+/- is a team stat so don’t put much stock into it.

With that said, Tatum is obviously a talented player, but the guy has such a bad shot selection + he’s a turnover machine and against a team like GS, you’re not going to win many games giving them the ball for an easy fast break opportunity that often.

Coxy · Post #17 » by **Coxy** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:39 am

Yeah that's a bizare occurance. He was the reason they were in it for 2 1/2 quarters.

Dr Aki · Post #18 » by **Dr Aki** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:44 am

Quick, better trade him while he still has value

Why do we even have these kinds of threads?

Onlytimewilltel · Post #19 » by **Onlytimewilltel** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:48 am

Not aggressive enough, especially going to the hoop. For all his “Kobe is my role model” talk, Kobe would have attacked the basket a lot more on some of those drives he had a weak kick outs. Kobe was a dog, I just don’t see that in Tatum. He needs more of a mean streak, but it probably won’t ever happen if it doesn’t come naturally for him now.

Pachinko_ · Post #20 » by **Pachinko_** » Mon Jun 6, 2022 3:49 am

It's a team stat.

"He was" +/- this much is just wrong phrasing.
"He was" nothing.
Correct phrasing is "His team was" so much +/- when he was on the floor.