Jayson Tatum was -36 (The worst by any player in a Finals game)

[Myth]

This could be as simple as the Warriors on a run and Udoka thinking he couldn’t afford to take the one player doing well out.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Dude was hitting contested shots and 3s and helped kill GSW runs before midway through the third. He was so far from a problem today, unless you’re the Warriors because he was great

Not saying this was the case, but holding the ball a lot and then hitting contested 3s at a high rate may look sexy as hell, but it's unsustainable and crashing and burning in the last quarter and a half is pretty predictable unless maybe you're a GOAT candidate.
What you contribute to the global offense is actually more important for the vast majority of players. Just making the simple play quickly can improve everyone else's efficiency in a way that even if yours takes a dip, you are still more helpful to winning overall.

[GiannisAnte34]

Since Tatum is commonly brought up in top 5 and MVP conversations he is a touch overrated. Imagine what Luka would be doing in his place.

[NO-KG-AI]

Since Tatum is commonly brought up in top 5 and MVP conversations he is a touch overrated. Imagine what Luka would be doing in his place.

To be fair, the top 4 is pretty locked in, but that 5th spot is kind of wide open between guys that are aging and not as consistent as they used to be, and younger guys that are still trying to break through, so he probably has a case for #5, along with a few other guys.

[meekrab]

He was on the court seven more minutes than any other starter.

The eye test (which is disregarded as well on a game to game basis) would tell you that Tatum was losing the ball too much on drives in the paint and making some bad decisions passing.

The problem with dismissing certain "anomalies" in the playoffs is that you don't have time for long sample sizes.

This is the same issue I have with those that make the argument James Harden still gets similar amounts of FTA's from the RS to PS.

Yes, in the aggregate it looks similar but on a game to game basis Harden does not get the same production.

For example, if Harden gets 18 FTA's in G1, 8 FTA's in G2, 12 FTA's in G3, and 5 FTA's in G4. It will appear as if Harden still is receiving approximately 10 FTA's per game. But that is not the case on a game to game basis. In the playoffs consistency from your stars is the most important quality.

Consistency. Not the aggregate. If your production is "noisy" you cannot be counted on in a game to game basis. That is why that excuse is used dismissively. In a seven game series, if your star's production is below in four of the seven games, then your team is likely to lose that series.

In the playoffs, there is no one game sample size excuse. If your best player(s) have that bad a +/-, then it needs to be addressed.....

Bruh check out the Celtics players +/- from Game 1. Tatum +16 Brown +22 Derrick White +25 PAYTON PRITCHARD +14 in 15 minutes.

"no one game sample size excuse" means Payton Pritchard is the best player in the NBA.

Un-post your joke essay.

+/- can be noisy for sure, but Derrick White and Payton Pritchard were great in game 1 relative to their role and expectations.
Just because a certain player isn't "supposed" to be the one to impact a game in a major way doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

So Payton Pritchard, best NBA finals player in history by +/- per minute, isn't that good?

Maybe we shouldn't overreact to Jason Tatum's +/- in one game either, then.

[G35]

He was on the court seven more minutes than any other starter.

The eye test (which is disregarded as well on a game to game basis) would tell you that Tatum was losing the ball too much on drives in the paint and making some bad decisions passing.

The problem with dismissing certain "anomalies" in the playoffs is that you don't have time for long sample sizes.

This is the same issue I have with those that make the argument James Harden still gets similar amounts of FTA's from the RS to PS.

Yes, in the aggregate it looks similar but on a game to game basis Harden does not get the same production.

For example, if Harden gets 18 FTA's in G1, 8 FTA's in G2, 12 FTA's in G3, and 5 FTA's in G4. It will appear as if Harden still is receiving approximately 10 FTA's per game. But that is not the case on a game to game basis. In the playoffs consistency from your stars is the most important quality.

Consistency. Not the aggregate. If your production is "noisy" you cannot be counted on in a game to game basis. That is why that excuse is used dismissively. In a seven game series, if your star's production is below in four of the seven games, then your team is likely to lose that series.

In the playoffs, there is no one game sample size excuse. If your best player(s) have that bad a +/-, then it needs to be addressed.....

Bruh check out the Celtics players +/- from Game 1. Tatum +16 Brown +22 Derrick White +25 PAYTON PRITCHARD +14 in 15 minutes.

"no one game sample size excuse" means Payton Pritchard is the best player in the NBA.

Un-post your joke essay.

+/- can be noisy for sure, but Derrick White and Payton Pritchard were great in game 1 relative to their role and expectations.
Just because a certain player isn't "supposed" to be the one to impact a game in a major way doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Agreed.

The premise of my original post was that stars should be consistent in the playoffs...that is why they are stars.

Superstars should be even more consistent than stars...that is why they are superstars.

This is why players like Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, etc etc are considered the best of the best. Not because they are great one game and bad in the next game. Their level of production is more consistent.

Imo, in the playoffs, on the road, anything you get from your role players should be considered a bonus... a cherry on top.

Your stars are suppose to carry the load on the road. In G1, the role players essentially carried the Celtics. That should be considered an uber bonus, that the Celtics won the game should be seen as playing with house money. That is not likely to happen again. That is what Steph, Draymond, Kerr all said in the postgame interviews after G1.

Now going back to Boston, the Celtics should expect that their role players will play better at home than on the road. That has historically been the case. Superstars/Stars are suppose to make the game easier for role players on the road. While the home court environment/fans make it easier for role players. That is why home court is an "advantage".

Now we will see how well the Warriors role players perform on the road. The Celtics did what they had to do. Win one on the road, now if their stars and role players play to "expectations", they should hold serve at Boston...but that is why we play the games.....

[whocurrz]

Dude was hitting contested shots and 3s and helped kill GSW runs before midway through the third. He was so far from a problem today, unless you’re the Warriors because he was great

Not saying this was the case, but holding the ball a lot and then hitting contested 3s at a high rate may look sexy as hell, but it's unsustainable and crashing and burning in the last quarter and a half is pretty predictable unless maybe you're a GOAT candidate.
What you contribute to the global offense is actually more important for the vast majority of players. Just making the simple play quickly can improve everyone else's efficiency in a way that even if yours takes a dip, you are still more helpful to winning overall.

While that is 100% true and I said to my friend as I watched the game I’ll let the Jays attempt
To hit that shot while counting on regression to the mean, Tatum didnt do anything that significanly hurt the Celtics offense. They don’t have any guy you want to give control of the game to all
Night long. While Tatum may eventually have to become that guy, Him Tatum Not being Lebron at the moment doesn’t mean he’s anything short of amazing .

If anyone who matters paying attention, please bench Mr. Tatum

[NO-KG-AI]

Tatum's problem right now is that he wants to be Kobe, but like many of the Jordan pretenders that came in his wake, Tatum is missing the entire point of what made Kobe special. He's hyper focused on the difficult shots that make the home crowds go bananas or the opposing crowd go silent, and while Kobe definitely took a lot of ill advised jumpers, he could also post up and destroy smaller guards on switches, he was a very strong pick and roll guard, he could find holes in the defense all over the place off the ball.

He needs to do more of the things that made Kobe truly special as a guard, and less of the thing that might be his only real black mark as a player.

[JujitsuFlip]

Had quite a few head scratching plays on defense.

[GiannisAnte34]

Since Tatum is commonly brought up in top 5 and MVP conversations he is a touch overrated. Imagine what Luka would be doing in his place.

To be fair, the top 4 is pretty locked in, but that 5th spot is kind of wide open between guys that are aging and not as consistent as they used to be, and younger guys that are still trying to break through, so he probably has a case for #5, along with a few other guys.

I can’t imagine why someone would rate Tatum over Luka or Morant but I can see why over Trae or Booker. To me he is a fringe top 10 assuming guys like Durant, Kawhi, and Davis are playing. He seems to have a similar career trajectory to Paul Pierce, he’ll never be MVP but he will be in the top 10 conversations consistently.

[Bob8]

raw plus minus in small sample sizes means absolutely nothing other than a simple recording of the score when said player was in the game. Any evaluation of a player based on it is completely and utterly worthless.

Even in big sample sizes it's worthless.
Because you still have to write a whole thesis to explain why it was his fault that his team was that much +/- and not the fault of the other 9 to 20 players who were on the floor with him.

Best way to describe it: it's a troll stat.
Makes people have very lengthy and very useless discussions.

I totally agree. Interesting enough, this is stat that Tatum's fans normally like very much.

[baldur]

Most misleading stat. This stat shouldn't even be taken into consideration.

[Pennebaker]

Tatum is one of the best player in the league right now. No debate. His raw stats tonight were very solid. But his +/- was unquestionably brutal.

So here's a question. What's your take on +/- stats in general?

Raw stats:
28 PTS
6 REB
3 AST
8-19 FG
6-9 3PT

Read on Twitter

?s=21&t=CvWvgTc1QLD573pIbyr0vg

+/- doesn't assign blame. The +/- stat doesn't know why Tatum had a -36 and it doesn't care because that's not its job. Anything beyond that is reading tea leaves.

[Ein Sof]

Tatum is -20 for the series.

So if the Celtics lose in 6, then he might have a chance to catch LeBron James' legendary -60 in the 2018 Finals.

[Petergrifindor]

This shows how useless that stat is.

[DroseReturnChi]

He wasnt good imo. Well, good in the first half because his three was going in, then invisible in the second. He’s a very strange player. Can explode at any point but I just dont get that game manager feeling from him. Somethings missing despite all that talent.

Hes Just good at shooting thats it and wildly inconsistent. High variance players will never do well these guys have bad nights every other game.

[BK_2020]

Luka and Jimmy both had games where they were -30. Steph had a game where he was -37. +/- is pretty meaningless to begin with but in a one game sample it is pure noise.

[Bologna Smasher]

As someone that's big into stats, +/- is probably one of the stats I pay the least amount of attention to. Evaluating individual players with it is very flawed to me, especially considering that so many outside factors impact it.

[BK_2020]

He wasnt good imo. Well, good in the first half because his three was going in, then invisible in the second. He’s a very strange player. Can explode at any point but I just dont get that game manager feeling from him. Somethings missing despite all that talent.

He had 7 points in the 3rd, a three pointer off a high pnr and got fouled three times driving to the hoop. Set up his teammates a couple of times. Would've scored more if he didn't miss 2 of 6 free throws uncharacteristically.
The starters sat in the 4th so there's your answer to why he disappeared in the 4th.

[Higgs Boston]

He played a lot with 4 bench players, that stat talks worse about udoka than tatum.