Is Pau Gasol a top 50 player all-time?

[70sFan]

He’s very borderline. I think you could make the case to sneak him in there.

I know I would personally put Pau in AD’s spot in the top 50, but I would understand if not everyone agreed too.

Is AD in the top 50? I know AD made the NBA's 75th anniversary team but that list wasn't ranked. ESPN ranked the NBA's top 75 and had Anthony Davis at #71.

I think this is a good point to bring the thread to back on topic. ESPN's ranking was done in Feb 2022, so very recently.

In their ranking, they had:

76 - Bill Sharman
75 - Dame Lillard
74 - Dave Bing
73 - Dave DeBusschere
72 - Billy Cunningham
71 - Anthony Davis
70 - Dolph Schayes

Instead of making this discussion about Kobe or Kobe-fans... let's talk about why you think Gasol should be ranked higher than these guys as a starting point. I mean, to get into the Top 50, he must first pass those who are #75 to #51 in descending order. Right?

Cheers!

I said I probably don't have Pau in my top 50, you don't read my posts. I'll waste my time again to answer your question though:

1. Bill Sharman - this one is quite clear to me. Sharman had quite short career and his prime lasted around 8-9 years. Pau played on all-star level for almost 15 years in comparison. Another thing is that I have Gasol's peak a bit higher due to his postseason work in Los Angeles. Sharman was very good, he was arguably the best shooter of his era, but I value Gasol's passing, post defense and versatility on offense more. Mostly it's massive longevity advantage though.

2. Damian Lillard - I don't think I have to explain that. Lillard is another one with much shorter career and he's weak postseason performer as well. You can argue that Lillard peaked higher, but he's much less consistent and has a long way to catch Pau in my opinion.

3. Dave Bing - Bing has no case to be on this list, as much as I respect him. He had a brief peak that was quickly destroyed by injuries and was never the same after that. His teammate, Bob Lanier should have been picked ahead of him on the list. I don't think I have to explain it here - Pau was better basketball player than him on all accounts - better peak, longer and more consistent prime, far better longevity.

4. Dave DeBusschere - Dave is an interesting player who is heavily underrated by boxscore numbers. He was elite defender who also gave his team spacing at PF spot, very modern-ish player in that aspect. I'd probably have Gasol ahead of him still, due to Gasol's far better offensive game but it is closer than the previous comparisons.

5. Billy Cunningham - I love Billy and I think he's very underrated. I am glad that NBA put him on the list. At his peak, he was legit great player but he's another one with very short prime and almost no post prime career. For peaks, I'd go with Billy but Gasol has much longer and more successful career.

6. Anthony Davis - this one is all about peak vs longevity. Davis definitely peaked higher than Pau, but the problem with him is that he has very few healthy seasons. Is 5 strong all-nba seasons better than 15 all-star seasons? It's up to you to decide, but I'm a longevity guy and Davis needs at least two another healthy seasons to put him ahead of Pau.

7. Dolph Schayes - Schayes is criminally underrated on this list. I have him higher than Pau and he's much better basketball player than some of the ones ranked ahead of him.

You have a lot of other players on that list who shouldn't be ahead of Pau - Monroe, Maravich, Lenny, Melo, Archibald, Lucas, Walton. Other ones are questionable as well. As I said, I don't have Pau in my top 50 but he's definitely in my top 75.

[NO-KG-AI]

Are you sure about that? From what I can tell it looks like you guys have come to this conclusion by yourselves. For example. I made the comment that Pau wasn't a great scorer, rebounder, or defender so I'm not sure why he's being put above some of these other guys. I was immediately accused of criticizing Pau because I'm a Kobe fan. I think you guys are projecting just a bit.

You gotta understand, some of us have been seeing it on RealGM for around 2 decades, to the point where it was literally degrading the value of some of our projects on here as people were trying to manipulate votes to boost Kobe up.(Example, giving Kobe the 1st place vote, and not giving the clear other guy in the argument a vote at all because it might help boost him above Kobe if other guys vote for him in 1st).

There is really no phenomena like it lol. You wouldn't understand as a new poster

[tsherkin]

I have explicitly said both that I dont rank Pau top 50 and that my remarks were aside from any specific ranking, so I dont know why you are tagging me with that particular comment.

My apologies, I was just trying to be inclusive... plus you have good takes so I was curious to see how you'd go about ranking him over those guys between #70-76. I'll change your tag to 70sFan.

Btw, even if you don't rank Pau in the Top 50, do you think he has a case for Top 75? That's what I'm asking about. Being in the Top 50 only comes later, after he's vanquished those between #51 to 75.

I dont have a personal ranking that far down from any time recent, tbh. I'd have to do my own little Top 75 project first, heh. I can see a top 70ish kind of argument but it starts to get fairly fuzzy at that point as comparable achievement becomes far more common. Still, Pau was very good, particularly as Kobe's #2 in the triangle. He was sort of ideal for that role.

[xb3at band1tx]

I think he has an argument for 75.

The pau vs davis discussion is interesting but no question in my mind I take Davis over him.

I know Pau has an all time resume with the international stuff but AD is very accomplished as well.

8 time all star
1 all star MVP
4 first team selections
2 defensive first teams
2 defensive 2nd teams
3 time block leader
NCAA, Olympics, and NBA champion

[An Unbiased Fan]

Are you sure about that? From what I can tell it looks like you guys have come to this conclusion by yourselves. For example. I made the comment that Pau wasn't a great scorer, rebounder, or defender so I'm not sure why he's being put above some of these other guys. I was immediately accused of criticizing Pau because I'm a Kobe fan. I think you guys are projecting just a bit.

You gotta understand, some of us have been seeing it on RealGM for around 2 decades, to the point where it was literally degrading the value of some of our projects on here as people were trying to manipulate votes to boost Kobe up.(Example, giving Kobe the 1st place vote, and not giving the clear other guy in the argument a vote at all because it might help boost him above Kobe if other guys vote for him in 1st).

There is really no phenomena like it lol. You wouldn't understand as a new poster

Where has this happened in projects? Seems like projection on your part. All I see in this thread is some being called Kobe fans for not thinking Pau is top 50. And long posts chastising them for it. Maybe some should be asking themselves if they're the ones with bias.

[LAL1947]

I said I probably don't have Pau in my top 50, you don't read my posts.

I'm not asking if you rank Pau in the Top 50. Simply asking if you think he has a case for Top 75. Being in the Top 50 only comes later, after he's vanquished those between #75 to 51 in descending order, right?

I'll waste my time again to answer your question though:

Spoiler:

1. Bill Sharman - this one is quite clear to me. Sharman had quite short career and his prime lasted around 8-9 years. Pau played on all-star level for almost 15 years in comparison. Another thing is that I have Gasol's peak a bit higher due to his postseason work in Los Angeles. Sharman was very good, he was arguably the best shooter of his era, but I value Gasol's passing, post defense and versatility on offense more. Mostly it's massive longevity advantage though.

2. Damian Lillard - I don't think I have to explain that. Lillard is another one with much shorter career and he's weak postseason performer as well. You can argue that Lillard peaked higher, but he's much less consistent and has a long way to catch Pau in my opinion.

3. Dave Bing - Bing has no case to be on this list, as much as I respect him. He had a brief peak that was quickly destroyed by injuries and was never the same after that. His teammate, Bob Lanier should have been picked ahead of him on the list. I don't think I have to explain it here - Pau was better basketball player than him on all accounts - better peak, longer and more consistent prime, far better longevity.

4. Dave DeBusschere - Dave is an interesting player who is heavily underrated by boxscore numbers. He was elite defender who also gave his team spacing at PF spot, very modern-ish player in that aspect. I'd probably have Gasol ahead of him still, due to Gasol's far better offensive game but it is closer than the previous comparisons.

5. Billy Cunningham - I love Billy and I think he's very underrated. I am glad that NBA put him on the list. At his peak, he was legit great player but he's another one with very short prime and almost no post prime career. For peaks, I'd go with Billy but Gasol has much longer and more successful career.

6. Anthony Davis - this one is all about peak vs longevity. Davis definitely peaked higher than Pau, but the problem with him is that he has very few healthy seasons. Is 5 strong all-nba seasons better than 15 all-star seasons? It's up to you to decide, but I'm a longevity guy and Davis needs at least two another healthy seasons to put him ahead of Pau.

7. Dolph Schayes - Schayes is criminally underrated on this list. I have him higher than Pau and he's much better basketball player than some of the ones ranked ahead of him.

You have a lot of other players on that list who shouldn't be ahead of Pau - Monroe, Maravich, Lenny, Melo, Archibald, Lucas, Walton. Other ones are questionable as well. As I said, I don't have Pau in my top 50 but he's definitely in my top 75.

Well, I have not seen many of the pre-1980 guys play, so I don't understand how we can categorically say these guys are questionable selections over Pau Gasol. Almost every player discussed in your post has more All-NBA First Team selections than Pau. Only Melo and Lenny Wilkens did not have a selection. Now I'm not saying that First Team selections is everything... simply pointing out that when these guys played, they got those selections because they were considered the best players at their positions in the league compared to their peers. This is also why the All-NBA teams are important and the format should not be changed IMO (although that's a topic for another discussion).

I've looked it up and here are the selections for each person below... and I'm asking this question for discussion, i.e., surely their First Team selections must count for something?

Pau Gasol: 0x All-NBA First Team

1. Bill Sharman: 4× All-NBA First Team (1956–1959)
2. Damian Lillard: 1x All-NBA First Team (2018)
3. Dave Bing: 2× All-NBA First Team (1968, 1971)
4. Dave DeBusschere: 6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969–1974)
5. Billy Cunningham: 3× All-NBA First Team (1969–1971)
6. Anthony Davis: 4× All-NBA First Team (2015, 2017, 2018, 2020)
7. Dolph Schayes: 6× All-NBA First Team (1952–1955, 1957, 1958)
8: Earl Monroe: All-NBA First Team (1969
9: Pete Maravich: 2× All-NBA First Team (1976, 1977)
10: Lenny Wilkens: 0x All-NBA First Team
11: Carmelo Anthony: 0x All-NBA First Team... but he was a bus-driver, not a bus-rider.
12: Nate Archibald: 3× All-NBA First Team (1973, 1975, 1976)
13: Jerry Lucas: 3× All-NBA First Team (1965, 1966, 1968)
14: Bill Walton: 1x All-NBA First Team (1978)... I can't entertain the idea of putting Pau over him. Bill's career was blighted by injury but when healthy, he lead his team to a 4-0 sweep of Kareem's Lakers and the NBA title.

Pau also only had 2x All-NBA Second Team selections (in 2011 and 2015). That 2015 selection was probably an undeserved selection IMO. The two forwards in 2015's selection were both bigs, LMA and Pau. I think Kawhi or even Draymond would have been better choices than Pau. Kawhi was DPOTY and Draymond's GSW had 67 wins. Can you agree with me there?

[70sFan]

I'm not asking if you rank Pau in the Top 50. Simply asking if you think he has a case for Top 75. Being in the Top 50 only comes later, after he's vanquished those between #75 to 51 in descending order.

Yes, he has very reasonable case for top 75.

Well, I have not seen many of the pre-1980 guys play, yet I don't understand how we can categorically say these guys are questionable selections over Pau Gasol. Almost every player discussed in your post has more All-NBA First Team selections than Pau. Only Melo and Lenny Wilkens did not have a selection. Now I'm not saying that First Team selections is everything... simply pointing out that these guys got those selections because when they played, they were considered the best players at their positions in the league compared to their peers. This is why the All-NBA teams are important and the format should not be changed IMO (although that's a topic for another discussion).

I've looked it up and here are the selections for each person below... and I'm asking this question for discussion, i.e., surely their First Team selections must count for something?

Pau Gasol: 0x All-NBA First Team

1. Bill Sharman: 4× All-NBA First Team (1956–1959)
2. Damian Lillard: 1x All-NBA First Team (2018)
3. Dave Bing: 2× All-NBA First Team (1968, 1971)
4. Dave DeBusschere: 6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969–1974)
5. Billy Cunningham: 3× All-NBA First Team (1969–1971)
6. Anthony Davis: 4× All-NBA First Team (2015, 2017, 2018, 2020)
7. Dolph Schayes: 6× All-NBA First Team (1952–1955, 1957, 1958)
8: Earl Monroe: All-NBA First Team (1969
9: Pete Maravich: 2× All-NBA First Team (1976, 1977)
10: Lenny Wilkens: 0x All-NBA First Team
11: Carmelo Anthony: 0x All-NBA First Team... but he was a bus-driver, not a bus-rider.
12: Nate Archibald: 3× All-NBA First Team (1973, 1975, 1976)
13: Jerry Lucas: 3× All-NBA First Team (1965, 1966, 1968)
14: Bill Walton: 1x All-NBA First Team (1978)... I can't entertain the idea of putting Pau over him. Bill's career was blighted by injury but when healthy, he lead his team to a 4-0 sweep of Kareem's Lakers and the NBA title.

Pau also only had 2x All-NBA Second Team selections (in 2011 and 2015). That 2015 selection was probably an undeserved selection IMO. The 2 forwards in 2015's selection were LMA and Pau. Either Kawhi or Draymond would have been better choices than Pau. Kawhi was DPOTY and Draymond's GSW had 67 wins.

I think you should take into account the competition faced for all-nba teams. Someone like Pete Maravich had much easier time to get all-nba first teams in the late 1970s (and he still didn't deserve them), while Pau had to battle for these awards with utterly stacked era for forwards - Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, LeBron, Durant... That's why Melo didn't have any all-nba first team selections either. This is why counting accolades can be misleading.

Pau's strength isn't him being some kind of MVP candidate (that's the level of the real all-nba first team player). I rank him highly because he's all-star level for basically 15 years and he was very smart, portable player who can play in multiple roles and systems. The truth is that none of these players were legit MVP-level players either (outside of Walton, who had amazing peak), so why should we look at them strictly as first options?

[NO-KG-AI]

Are you sure about that? From what I can tell it looks like you guys have come to this conclusion by yourselves. For example. I made the comment that Pau wasn't a great scorer, rebounder, or defender so I'm not sure why he's being put above some of these other guys. I was immediately accused of criticizing Pau because I'm a Kobe fan. I think you guys are projecting just a bit.

You gotta understand, some of us have been seeing it on RealGM for around 2 decades, to the point where it was literally degrading the value of some of our projects on here as people were trying to manipulate votes to boost Kobe up.(Example, giving Kobe the 1st place vote, and not giving the clear other guy in the argument a vote at all because it might help boost him above Kobe if other guys vote for him in 1st).

There is really no phenomena like it lol. You wouldn't understand as a new poster

Where has this happened in projects? Seems like projection on your part. All I see in this thread is some being called Kobe fans for not thinking Pau is top 50. And long posts chastising them for it. Maybe some should be asking themselves if they're the ones with bias.

lmaoooo

[LAL1947]

lmaoooo

You quoted approx 300+ words in 3 different posts to say "lmaoooo". At least remove the first two quotes?

[gorz]

Duncan
Malone
Giannis
Dirk
Garnett
Barkley
AD
Bosh
Mchale
Hayes


Are all clearly ahead of him


Gasol is somewhere in this group

Rodman
Webber
Jermaine O'Neal
Zbo
Draymond

What? Jermaine o Neal? Zbo? Are you serious? Bosh is better then Gasol too? How?

Pau Gasol never moved the needle for his team when he was in Memphis as a featured player. Gasol wasnt particularly good for lakers when they won those two titles. It was basically kobe bryant and an ensemble cast with Gasol being a marquee name. Gasol production is similar or slightly worse than all three of Jermaine O Neal Zbo and Bosh. Resume Bosh is clearly ahead of Gasol while Gasol is ahead of Jermaine O Neal and Zbo as far as career resume. Zbo never received much recognition or accolades during his career but dude was a monster for memphis especially in tge playoffs. He was a pf who can actually takeover a game with his scoring down low or face up.

[dhsilv2]

I said I probably don't have Pau in my top 50, you don't read my posts.

I'm not asking if you rank Pau in the Top 50. Simply asking if you think he has a case for Top 75. Being in the Top 50 only comes later, after he's vanquished those between #75 to 51 in descending order, right?

I'll waste my time again to answer your question though:

Spoiler:

1. Bill Sharman - this one is quite clear to me. Sharman had quite short career and his prime lasted around 8-9 years. Pau played on all-star level for almost 15 years in comparison. Another thing is that I have Gasol's peak a bit higher due to his postseason work in Los Angeles. Sharman was very good, he was arguably the best shooter of his era, but I value Gasol's passing, post defense and versatility on offense more. Mostly it's massive longevity advantage though.

2. Damian Lillard - I don't think I have to explain that. Lillard is another one with much shorter career and he's weak postseason performer as well. You can argue that Lillard peaked higher, but he's much less consistent and has a long way to catch Pau in my opinion.

3. Dave Bing - Bing has no case to be on this list, as much as I respect him. He had a brief peak that was quickly destroyed by injuries and was never the same after that. His teammate, Bob Lanier should have been picked ahead of him on the list. I don't think I have to explain it here - Pau was better basketball player than him on all accounts - better peak, longer and more consistent prime, far better longevity.

4. Dave DeBusschere - Dave is an interesting player who is heavily underrated by boxscore numbers. He was elite defender who also gave his team spacing at PF spot, very modern-ish player in that aspect. I'd probably have Gasol ahead of him still, due to Gasol's far better offensive game but it is closer than the previous comparisons.

5. Billy Cunningham - I love Billy and I think he's very underrated. I am glad that NBA put him on the list. At his peak, he was legit great player but he's another one with very short prime and almost no post prime career. For peaks, I'd go with Billy but Gasol has much longer and more successful career.

6. Anthony Davis - this one is all about peak vs longevity. Davis definitely peaked higher than Pau, but the problem with him is that he has very few healthy seasons. Is 5 strong all-nba seasons better than 15 all-star seasons? It's up to you to decide, but I'm a longevity guy and Davis needs at least two another healthy seasons to put him ahead of Pau.

7. Dolph Schayes - Schayes is criminally underrated on this list. I have him higher than Pau and he's much better basketball player than some of the ones ranked ahead of him.

You have a lot of other players on that list who shouldn't be ahead of Pau - Monroe, Maravich, Lenny, Melo, Archibald, Lucas, Walton. Other ones are questionable as well. As I said, I don't have Pau in my top 50 but he's definitely in my top 75.

Well, I have not seen many of the pre-1980 guys play, so I don't understand how we can categorically say these guys are questionable selections over Pau Gasol. Almost every player discussed in your post has more All-NBA First Team selections than Pau. Only Melo and Lenny Wilkens did not have a selection. Now I'm not saying that First Team selections is everything... simply pointing out that when these guys played, they got those selections because they were considered the best players at their positions in the league compared to their peers. This is also why the All-NBA teams are important and the format should not be changed IMO (although that's a topic for another discussion).

I've looked it up and here are the selections for each person below... and I'm asking this question for discussion, i.e., surely their First Team selections must count for something?

Pau Gasol: 0x All-NBA First Team

1. Bill Sharman: 4× All-NBA First Team (1956–1959)
2. Damian Lillard: 1x All-NBA First Team (2018)
3. Dave Bing: 2× All-NBA First Team (1968, 1971)
4. Dave DeBusschere: 6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969–1974)
5. Billy Cunningham: 3× All-NBA First Team (1969–1971)
6. Anthony Davis: 4× All-NBA First Team (2015, 2017, 2018, 2020)
7. Dolph Schayes: 6× All-NBA First Team (1952–1955, 1957, 1958)
8: Earl Monroe: All-NBA First Team (1969
9: Pete Maravich: 2× All-NBA First Team (1976, 1977)
10: Lenny Wilkens: 0x All-NBA First Team
11: Carmelo Anthony: 0x All-NBA First Team... but he was a bus-driver, not a bus-rider.
12: Nate Archibald: 3× All-NBA First Team (1973, 1975, 1976)
13: Jerry Lucas: 3× All-NBA First Team (1965, 1966, 1968)
14: Bill Walton: 1x All-NBA First Team (1978)... I can't entertain the idea of putting Pau over him. Bill's career was blighted by injury but when healthy, he lead his team to a 4-0 sweep of Kareem's Lakers and the NBA title.

Pau also only had 2x All-NBA Second Team selections (in 2011 and 2015). That 2015 selection was probably an undeserved selection IMO. The two forwards in 2015's selection were both bigs, LMA and Pau. I think Kawhi or even Draymond would have been better choices than Pau. Kawhi was DPOTY and Draymond's GSW had 67 wins. Can you agree with me there?

Why are you discussing these players if you haven't put in the time to watch pre 80's games on youtube like everyone else? Seriously man, there's hundereds if not thousands of hours of amazing basketball completely free to watch anytime you want!

[dhsilv2]

Came in to confirm this would turn into a train wreck of people trying to dismiss Gasol, thinking it would make Kobe look better, when it doesn't. I see I was right.

[G35]

Are you sure about that? From what I can tell it looks like you guys have come to this conclusion by yourselves. For example. I made the comment that Pau wasn't a great scorer, rebounder, or defender so I'm not sure why he's being put above some of these other guys. I was immediately accused of criticizing Pau because I'm a Kobe fan. I think you guys are projecting just a bit.

You gotta understand, some of us have been seeing it on RealGM for around 2 decades, to the point where it was literally degrading the value of some of our projects on here as people were trying to manipulate votes to boost Kobe up.(Example, giving Kobe the 1st place vote, and not giving the clear other guy in the argument a vote at all because it might help boost him above Kobe if other guys vote for him in 1st).

There is really no phenomena like it lol. You wouldn't understand as a new poster

I would argue that there is something left out...that those who dislike Kobe assume they are not projecting any bias.

If someone disliked KG...does that degrade a project?

If someone dislike Lebron does that degrade a project?

If someone dislikes Iverson does that degrade a project?

But if someone dislikes Kobe its true and legitimate critique. Personal bias means more than anything else when rating a player.....

[LAL1947]

I think you should take into account the competition faced for all-nba teams. Someone like Pete Maravich had much easier time to get all-nba first teams in the late 1970s (and he still didn't deserve them), while Pau had to battle for these awards with utterly stacked era for forwards - Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, LeBron, Durant... That's why Melo didn't have any all-nba first team selections either. This is why counting accolades can be misleading.

I agree that the competition you face can affect these things, that's why I said First Team selections are not everything. As you point out, Melo also didn't have any All-NBA 1st team selections. Yet Melo is in the Top-75 because he would be a bonafide #1 option for many teams compared to those who are not currently in the Top-75. Lenny Wilkens also doesn't have a 1st team selection but retired 2nd on the All-Time Assists list behind Oscar Robertson and he is still #37 for APG over a career. These guys have something special they can hang their hat on.

You mention Pete Maravich... well, in addition to his 2x All-NBA First Team selections to Pau's 0 times... here's where they stand in the all-time NBA/ABA leaders lists for Points, Assists, Rebounds, Steals and Blocks per game.

Pete Maravich:
PPG: #21 - 24.24
APG: #94 - 5.41
RPG: Not in Top 250
SPG: #125 - 1.36
BPG: Not in Top 250

Pau Gasol:
PPG: #182 - 17.04
APG: Not in Top 250
RPG: #94 - 9.22
SPG: Not in Top 250
BPG: #53 - 1.58

So if someone asks why Pete is #54 on the list, well... to still be #21 in PPG among all players after so many years, it is something special, right? If you look at the rank for Pau's numbers per game... #53, #94, #182... are those really special enough to be in the Top 75?

Pau's strength isn't him being some kind of MVP candidate (that's the level of the real all-nba first team player). I rank him highly because he's all-star level for basically 15 years and he was very smart, portable player who can play in multiple roles and systems. The truth is that none of these players were legit MVP-level players either (outside of Walton, who had amazing peak), so why should we look at them strictly as first options?

To answer that question at the end... an All-NBA First Team player need not necessarily be an MVP candidate, it simply means they were considered the best players in their position in that year.

Anyway, I agree with you, Pau had very good longevity... but apparently, those making the list feel that to be in the Top 75, players needed something more special than longevity to hang their hats on.

Btw, he's just going to get further and further from the Top 75 as time passes. Jokic, Butler, Dwight, Ginobili, Parker and Klay all have better cases than Pau already.

How about guys like Khris Middleton, is his case for Top 75 much weaker than Pau's or close to Pau's? Note: I'm not saying it's better.

Why are you discussing these players if you haven't put in the time to watch pre 80's games on youtube like everyone else? Seriously man, there's hundreds if not thousands of hours of amazing basketball completely free to watch anytime you want!

I have asked a perfectly valid question. Do you have a logical and satisfactory rebuttal to it?

Came in to confirm this would turn into a train wreck of people trying to dismiss Gasol, thinking it would make Kobe look better, when it doesn't. I see I was right.

Would you like a medal?

[Doctor MJ]

man viewing your teammates as rivals is one of the classic things Riley was talking about when he discussed the disease of me:



even if you think Gasol wasn't a top 50 player, him being in the top 50 doesn't diminish Kobe

Yup, though of course what we're talking about here isn't "me" in the literal sense. What we're talking about is people becoming so attached to how someone else is perceived that they attach themselves to that person - aka, the cult of personality.

I don't think any of us are immune from these tendencies, but it's really something when you see around the celebrities that have managed to sew this most effectively amongst a population.

One other thing:

I do think it's important to note that people likely aren't coming into this thread thinking "Oh a thread about Gasol, I must make up criticisms toward Gasol there in order to further the Kobe cause". Rather, people have managed to remember Gasol primarily through the lens "of why Kobe didn't win more".

So, somehow, despite the fact that Gasol has strong arguments for being the MVP of the '10-11 Lakers, and despite the fact Gasol was still making all-star games all the way to 2016, people have managed to long remember the story of the '10-11 Lakers as one of Gasol reaching basketball senility and thus preventing Kobe from winning more titles.

Doesn't mean Gasol played great in the Mavs series that year - he clearly did not, though he was far from alone among Lakers for whom this is true - but the fact that that series takes such a massive importance in their notion of what Gasol's career arc looks like makes clear that they didn't actually ever analyze Gasol on his own terms.

The story of Gasol for them thus becomes simply "the story of how Gasol can be used to explain how great Kobe was"...even though there's often no explicit intention among most who come to see things in this way to actually end up doing this.

And again, none of us are immune from this type of narrative framing. On some level, we cannot help but do it...but when you see someone else do it, you can often fairly easily see how they came to approach the analysis with this warped perspective.

Passion is a double-edged sword for all of us.

I really only see you and a few others making this about "Kobe fans".

Thinking Pau isn't Top 50 isn't a slight on him, so where are you going with this? Also in what world does Gasol have a strong argument for Laker's MVP in 2011????

In '10-11, Gasol had nearly as high a PER as Kobe, better WS & VORP, and considerably better +/-.

What objective thing would you point to make Kobe not just your choice for MVP, but such a big gap that you consider it appropriate to laugh at someone who disagrees with you?

[G35]

Aaaaaand we're done here.

My fault, I should have known better than to engage. It sucks that I can't participate in a thread talking about a great player because of posters like you, but it is what it is.

Good day to you, sir.

If you have low standards, that's your problem. I think the word "star" is thrown around too liberally as it is. Every time I read about a player that is in a professional league he is a star and he's not even a starter. We have dumbed down and diluted what a star really is and I will not miss your lower standards.....

[Doctor MJ]

And again, both Jordan and Lebron have bigger cult of personalities. And in the case of Lebrons cult they are the most toxic by far. By far.

Stalwart, I'm going to largely just agree to disagree with you, with an emphasis that you're just really underrating Kobe's cult of personality while being in it...which is interesting.

[Homer38]

Only Spurs fans criticize Kobe fans in this thread... which should tell you all you need to know.

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

Who is doing that? You guys are trying to put him in the top 50 on par with Kevin Mchale and Charles Barkley. Meanwhile you're turning your noses up at Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Dennis Rodman, ect. Laker fans love Pau Gasol but they are also aware of the anti-Kobe fans agenda to pump him up into a mini Shaq.

Its the anti-Kobe fans who are the most toxic. By far. Them and the Lebron fans. Tim Duncan fans not far behind(jk 70sfan. Kinda).

You need to look in the mirror before you say things like that...Every fan base have good and bad fan

[Homer38]

IMHO, Gasol was an intelligent but flawed player. He was only effective as our #2 because Kobe's scoring covered for his flaws offensively... and Odom/Artest/Bynum covered his flaws defensively. Once Kobe and Odom started regressing physically from 2010 onward, we had no chance of covering those flaws. Got swept 0-4 by Dallas if I remember right.

The diminishing language you use with Pau is kinda sad.

Stepping aside from the "top 50" aspect for a second, Pau was a PHENOMENAL second option and that was due to his skill set and his fit in the Lakers' system and that role. They took advantage of his passing and had him operating with space in the right spots, and he did very well as a result. You managed to look at most everyone else who played significant minutes and hand them credit for what Pau did, which is a little ridiculous. Then, you start looking at him from 2010 onward with no mention of Pau's physical issues or his maintenance of his basic production profile, and call that bad somehow.

They were a 57-win team during the 2011 regular season. They beat the Hornets in the first round. Then yes, they got swept by Dallas. They couldn't hit a three to save their lives, Kobe was quite tepid and yes, Pau had a bad series. A year later, they were a 51-win team by winning percentage (lockout season, though) and won their first series. Lost in 5 to the Thunder, who would eventually exit the West that year. Durant torched them. Pau played well. Kobe shot quite a lot, though the rest of the team wasn't exactly stepping up with scoring value around him, and again, the team failed to space the floor effectively. Bynum was trash, and running him alongside Pau was not effective. Odom was gone by this point and that was a significant loss. A year later, they won 45 games, swept in the first round by the WC champion Spurs without Kobe in the lineup and no one really expected anything differently... particularly with a 32 year-old Pau who played less than 50 games in the RS.

Give the man his credit. He was a very good player for the Lakers. His arrival IMMEDIATELY coincided with a major improvement in their team's success which lasted for several years and for whatever reason, it isn't acceptable for Kobe fans to acknowledge that he had some help during that time. As if that somehow undermines the achievement of the title runs in some way (spoilers: it does not). Pau was fantastic for L.A. Not a perfect player by any means, but what such player exists? He made a gargantuan impact on their ability win for several years and then age and injury and the eroding roster quality around him and Kobe took it all apart. That happens. It's sad, but like Pippen in Houston or Portland, it is what it is. It happens to everyone.

Anyway, I won't comment on the guys I haven't seen play myself (Heinsohn, Lucas, Hayes). However, if we were making teams to play against each other, I'll let you take prime Pau on your team... and I'll take prime McHale, Webber, Chris Bosh or Anthony Davis on my team.

McHale and BOsh are interesting choices. Viable, though. Davis, if healthy, is definitely a better player.

Webber was not, no matter how much inefficient scoring he did in bulk for the Kings.

In the 2007-08 season, the Lakers started with Bynum and Odom in the front court and they were playing very well. At one point were the #1 team in the WC. It took Bynum's injury for the Lakers to pull the trigger on trading for Pau.

So before Pau came the Lakers were playing high low...was it as good as with Pau, no...but the benefit was not one-way. Pau benefitted as much or more from playing with the Lakers. There was a chance the Lakers had traded for KG and imo, if the Lakers trade for KG, that would have resulted in more titles for the Lakers and KG and Pau would have rotted away in Memphis. Pau was not a unique talent for the Lakers system.

This is how I see it, Pau was a perfect fit for the Lakers system, Pau was able to maximize his skillet.

OTOH, Pau was not necessarily the optimal or only fit for the Lakers, I think many other players could have duplicated Gasol's impact in that time period:

Bosh
Garnett
Duncan
Al Jefferson
Elton Brand
ZBo
Rasheed
Boozer
Al Horford
Aldridge

Some of these players are not as good of passers, shooters, defenders, or rebounders. But I think all of them could also bring skills that Gasol does not. Some of them would have brought a stronger defensive presence e.g. KG, Duncan, Bosh, Sheed, some them would bring a stronger isolation game e.g. Duncan, Jefferson, ZBo, Boozer, Bosh. Many of them are stronger rebounders.

But I do not think that Pau brings some unique skillset that elevates him over players.....

Al Jefferson?
Boozer?
A washed Rasheed?
etc



Kobe deserves the credit for his 2 rings but Pau Gasol was a top 2 second option in the NBA(with the celtics) during this period....Both can be true

[Doctor MJ]

He’s very borderline. I think you could make the case to sneak him in there.

I know I would personally put Pau in AD’s spot in the top 50, but I would understand if not everyone agreed too.

Is AD in the top 50? I know AD made the NBA's 75th anniversary team but that list wasn't ranked. ESPN ranked the NBA's top 75 and had Anthony Davis at #71.

I think this is a good point to bring the thread to back on topic. ESPN's ranking was done in Feb 2022, so very recently.

In their ranking, they had:

76 - Bill Sharman
75 - Dame Lillard
74 - Dave Bing
73 - Dave DeBusschere
72 - Billy Cunningham
71 - Anthony Davis
70 - Dolph Schayes

Instead of making this discussion about Kobe or Kobe-fans... let's talk about why you think Gasol should be ranked higher than these 7 guys listed above as a starting point? I mean, to get into the Top 50, he must first pass those who are #75 to #51 in descending order. Right?

Cheers!

I like that you're focusing on specific player comparisons!

I'm not going to go through 26 players in excruciating detail, and as I've said, I don't think Gasol simply has to be in the Top 50, but to just discuss him compared to these other players, I see a few groups:

1. The super old-timers Sharman & Schayes. These are just plain tough comparisons to make, I don't really mind people putting these guys over Gasol, but there's also no reason to think either had bodies as physically talented as Gasol's.

2. The current players Dame & AD. Here it's mostly a question of longevity. Prime AD is better than Gasol, and if you have AD higher on the back of that, I have no issue. Dame vs Gasol is more debatable prime vs prime. Dame's the better alpha, but probably not someone who you'd expect to win you a title as the best player, and Gasol is the much better co-star while also being an all-star level alpha.

3. The '70s guys Bing, DeBusschere & Cunningham. First thing I'd note is that I think it's clear that no era go more overrated by the NBA 75 than this one. The fact that the '70s Knicks not-quite dynasty have almost an entire lineup represented on the list while none of true dynasties that came later do is something I don't think anyone would want to justify. If you simply adjusted based on how the Knicks should be represented in this 75, it should really just be Reed & Frazier on the list, and I don't even think you'll find many folks who will disagree with this. And Bing is a considerably weaker candidate than DeBusschere, and was always a mysterious pick even back on the 50 list.

Cunningham deserves his own paragraph because he was a special player on a level the other two were not, but he didn't have a long career, and as much as he's seen as offensively brilliant, that efficiency was an issue.