How many Magic and Bird seasons over 2018 LeBron?

[70sFan]

To me the gap is scoring is just titanic in the playoffs.

Reg Sea 2018 Lebron: 36.2 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS
Playoff 2018 Lebron: 42.5 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS

Reg Sea 1987 Magic: 31.1 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1990 Magic: 30.8 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Reg Sea 1988 Bird: 37.6 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1984 Bird: 32.2 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Now, if there was some sort of massive defensive gap to consider as well, maybe they could have an argument, but I don't think that's the case at all. Magic has a playmaking edge but to me it's not enough to makeup for the immense scoring gap like it is with maybe 2014 Lebron or something.

I also think it's worth noting that Lebron probably did this with less talent than either Bird or Magic ever had to play with in either of their respective careers, certainly less offensive talent.

If we go with PS adjusted points per75 from Ben Taylor's database, here are the best playoff runs in NBA history (min. 10 games):

1. 2009 James: 37.2 on +9.5 rTS% in 14 games
2. 1993 Jordan: 36.3 on +2.9 rTS% in 19 games
3. 1998 Jordan: 35.2 on +2.4 rTS% in 21 games
4. 1990 Jordan: 35.0 on 6.2 rTS% in 16 games
5. 2021 Mitchell: 34.7 on +4.0 rTS% in 10 games
6. 1992 Jordan: 34.6 on +4.7 rTS% in 22 games
7. 1965 West: 34.5 on +5.0 rTS% in 11 games
8. 1988 Jordan: 34.3 on +7.0 rTS% in 10 games
9. 1998 Shaq: 34.1 on +8.7 rTS% in 13 games
10. 1989 Jordan: 34.0 on +7.6 TS% in 17 games
11. 1996 Jordan: 33.1 on +3.8 rTS% in 18 games
12. 1997 Jordan: 33.1 on +0.2 rTS% in 19 games
13. 1984 King: 33.0 on +8.8 rTS% in 12 games
14. 2018 James: 33.0 on +7.6 rTS% in 22 games

1990 Magic: 24.2 on +8.0 rTS% in 9 games
1987 Magic: 21.2 on +6.9 rTS% in 18 games

1984 Bird: 25.3 on +7.5 rTS% in 23 games
1987 Bird: 23.5 on +4.8 rTS% in 18 games

Would you take all of these seasons over peak Magic and Bird on offense?

[RCM88x]

To me the gap is scoring is just titanic in the playoffs.

Reg Sea 2018 Lebron: 36.2 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS
Playoff 2018 Lebron: 42.5 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS

Reg Sea 1987 Magic: 31.1 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1990 Magic: 30.8 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Reg Sea 1988 Bird: 37.6 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1984 Bird: 32.2 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Now, if there was some sort of massive defensive gap to consider as well, maybe they could have an argument, but I don't think that's the case at all. Magic has a playmaking edge but to me it's not enough to makeup for the immense scoring gap like it is with maybe 2014 Lebron or something.

I also think it's worth noting that Lebron probably did this with less talent than either Bird or Magic ever had to play with in either of their respective careers, certainly less offensive talent.

If we go with PS adjusted points per75 from Ben Taylor's database, here are the best playoff runs in NBA history (min. 10 games):

1. 2009 James: 37.2 on +9.5 rTS% in 14 games - yes to both
2. 1993 Jordan: 36.3 on +2.9 rTS% in 19 games - yes to both
3. 1998 Jordan: 35.2 on +2.4 rTS% in 21 games - yes to both
4. 1990 Jordan: 35.0 on 6.2 rTS% in 16 games - yes to both
5. 2021 Mitchell: 34.7 on +4.0 rTS% in 10 games no, too fluky, sample size, defensive gap
6. 1992 Jordan: 34.6 on +4.7 rTS% in 22 games - yes to both
7. 1965 West: 34.5 on +5.0 rTS% in 11 games no, playmaking, sample size
8. 1988 Jordan: 34.3 on +7.0 rTS% in 10 games no, sample size, playmaking
9. 1998 Shaq: 34.1 on +8.7 rTS% in 13 games no, defense, playmaking
10. 1989 Jordan: 34.0 on +7.6 TS% in 17 games debatable over Magic, yes over Bird
11. 1996 Jordan: 33.1 on +3.8 rTS% in 18 games debatable over both
12. 1997 Jordan: 33.1 on +0.2 rTS% in 19 games debatable over both but unlikely
13. 1984 King: 33.0 on +8.8 rTS% in 12 games no, fluky, playmaking, sample size
14. 2018 James: 33.0 on +7.6 rTS% in 22 games - yes

1990 Magic: 24.2 on +8.0 rTS% in 9 games
1987 Magic: 21.2 on +6.9 rTS% in 18 games

1984 Bird: 25.3 on +7.5 rTS% in 23 games
1987 Bird: 23.5 on +4.8 rTS% in 18 games

Would you take all of these seasons over peak Magic and Bird on offense?

FWIW I rate Magic a tier or so higher than Bird.

But I don't think I'd feel great about taking any non Jordan/Lebron season over peak Magic and Bird personally, other than a handful of Kareem seasons, 03 Duncan and 00 Shaq. Maybe throw in Hakeem too over Bird.

I brought up scoring because everything else is pretty much on a similar tier, scoring is the only thing that really shows a significant gap here. Where as players like Mitchell or King while also having great scoring runs are not only just not as good all-around and as I think we'd both agree, are just not comparable players to these guys, even though they had 1 fluky run that was statistically equivalent.

[70sFan]

To me the gap is scoring is just titanic in the playoffs.

Reg Sea 2018 Lebron: 36.2 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS
Playoff 2018 Lebron: 42.5 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS

Reg Sea 1987 Magic: 31.1 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1990 Magic: 30.8 Points Per 100 poss +6% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Reg Sea 1988 Bird: 37.6 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak scoring)
Playoff 1984 Bird: 32.2 Points Per 100 poss +7% TS (peak playoff scoring)

Now, if there was some sort of massive defensive gap to consider as well, maybe they could have an argument, but I don't think that's the case at all. Magic has a playmaking edge but to me it's not enough to makeup for the immense scoring gap like it is with maybe 2014 Lebron or something.

I also think it's worth noting that Lebron probably did this with less talent than either Bird or Magic ever had to play with in either of their respective careers, certainly less offensive talent.

If we go with PS adjusted points per75 from Ben Taylor's database, here are the best playoff runs in NBA history (min. 10 games):

1. 2009 James: 37.2 on +9.5 rTS% in 14 games - yes to both
2. 1993 Jordan: 36.3 on +2.9 rTS% in 19 games - yes to both
3. 1998 Jordan: 35.2 on +2.4 rTS% in 21 games - yes to both
4. 1990 Jordan: 35.0 on 6.2 rTS% in 16 games - yes to both
5. 2021 Mitchell: 34.7 on +4.0 rTS% in 10 games no, too fluky, sample size, defensive gap
6. 1992 Jordan: 34.6 on +4.7 rTS% in 22 games - yes to both
7. 1965 West: 34.5 on +5.0 rTS% in 11 games no, playmaking, sample size
8. 1988 Jordan: 34.3 on +7.0 rTS% in 10 games no, sample size, playmaking
9. 1998 Shaq: 34.1 on +8.7 rTS% in 13 games no, defense, playmaking
10. 1989 Jordan: 34.0 on +7.6 TS% in 17 games debatable over Magic, yes over Bird
11. 1996 Jordan: 33.1 on +3.8 rTS% in 18 games debatable over both
12. 1997 Jordan: 33.1 on +0.2 rTS% in 19 games debatable over both but unlikely
13. 1984 King: 33.0 on +8.8 rTS% in 12 games no, fluky, playmaking, sample size
14. 2018 James: 33.0 on +7.6 rTS% in 22 games - yes

1990 Magic: 24.2 on +8.0 rTS% in 9 games
1987 Magic: 21.2 on +6.9 rTS% in 18 games

1984 Bird: 25.3 on +7.5 rTS% in 23 games
1987 Bird: 23.5 on +4.8 rTS% in 18 games

Would you take all of these seasons over peak Magic and Bird on offense?

FWIW I rate Magic a tier or so higher than Bird.

But I don't think I'd feel great about taking any non Jordan/Lebron season over peak Magic and Bird personally, other than a handful of Kareem seasons, 03 Duncan and 00 Shaq. Maybe throw in Hakeem too over Bird.

I brought up scoring because everything else is pretty much on a similar tier, scoring is the only thing that really shows a significant gap here. Where as players like Mitchell or King while also having great scoring runs are not only just not as good all-around and as I think we'd both agree, are just not comparable players to these guys, even though they had 1 fluky run that was statistically equivalent.

Thanks for the reply. One minor point - why do you think West lacked anything in playmaking in comparison to Jordan? Also, I don't think 1965 was a fluke for him - he's one of the best postseason scorers ever and the only reason why he didn't replicate this volume numbers is because he played next to another volume scorer for the rest of his career.

[RCM88x]

If we go with PS adjusted points per75 from Ben Taylor's database, here are the best playoff runs in NBA history (min. 10 games):

1. 2009 James: 37.2 on +9.5 rTS% in 14 games - yes to both
2. 1993 Jordan: 36.3 on +2.9 rTS% in 19 games - yes to both
3. 1998 Jordan: 35.2 on +2.4 rTS% in 21 games - yes to both
4. 1990 Jordan: 35.0 on 6.2 rTS% in 16 games - yes to both
5. 2021 Mitchell: 34.7 on +4.0 rTS% in 10 games no, too fluky, sample size, defensive gap
6. 1992 Jordan: 34.6 on +4.7 rTS% in 22 games - yes to both
7. 1965 West: 34.5 on +5.0 rTS% in 11 games no, playmaking, sample size
8. 1988 Jordan: 34.3 on +7.0 rTS% in 10 games no, sample size, playmaking
9. 1998 Shaq: 34.1 on +8.7 rTS% in 13 games no, defense, playmaking
10. 1989 Jordan: 34.0 on +7.6 TS% in 17 games debatable over Magic, yes over Bird
11. 1996 Jordan: 33.1 on +3.8 rTS% in 18 games debatable over both
12. 1997 Jordan: 33.1 on +0.2 rTS% in 19 games debatable over both but unlikely
13. 1984 King: 33.0 on +8.8 rTS% in 12 games no, fluky, playmaking, sample size
14. 2018 James: 33.0 on +7.6 rTS% in 22 games - yes

1990 Magic: 24.2 on +8.0 rTS% in 9 games
1987 Magic: 21.2 on +6.9 rTS% in 18 games

1984 Bird: 25.3 on +7.5 rTS% in 23 games
1987 Bird: 23.5 on +4.8 rTS% in 18 games

Would you take all of these seasons over peak Magic and Bird on offense?

FWIW I rate Magic a tier or so higher than Bird.

But I don't think I'd feel great about taking any non Jordan/Lebron season over peak Magic and Bird personally, other than a handful of Kareem seasons, 03 Duncan and 00 Shaq. Maybe throw in Hakeem too over Bird.

I brought up scoring because everything else is pretty much on a similar tier, scoring is the only thing that really shows a significant gap here. Where as players like Mitchell or King while also having great scoring runs are not only just not as good all-around and as I think we'd both agree, are just not comparable players to these guys, even though they had 1 fluky run that was statistically equivalent.

Thanks for the reply. One minor point - why do you think West lacked anything in playmaking in comparison to Jordan? Also, I don't think 1965 was a fluke for him - he's one of the best postseason scorers ever and the only reason why he didn't replicate this volume numbers is because he played next to another volume scorer for the rest of his career.

West is difficult because obviously the playoff runs then were just not as long as they are now, but it still a limited number of games/opponents. I feel like West's peak was more 66-70 era once his playmaking got better (maybe even his defense too) and I think the league got a lot stronger also. You probably know him better than me but I don't know if I'd put '65 at the top of his playoff runs personally even tho it was his scoring peak, but maybe I'm wrong there. Hard for me to have a good feel on individual seasons that far back.