Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden

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Giannis vs Harden

Giannis
42
71%
Harden
17
29%
 
Total votes: 59

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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#21 » by JimmyFromNz » Tue Jun 7, 2022 6:33 am

Giannis pretty clearly for me.

I'm not really sure how'd I'd argue for harden? His offensive peak was at an elite all time level for 3 or so seasons. But really on paper what has he achieved above and beyond Giannis? These are the sorts of things that separate players when considering all time rankings.
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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#22 » by scrabbarista » Tue Jun 7, 2022 2:13 pm

scrabbarista wrote:Haven't updated my list in like two years, but I suspect it's Harden. Not 100% sure, but sure enough to vote for him.


Refreshing my list now. Looks like Giannis may be one spot higher. Extremely close still - a virtual tie - but obviously Giannis is more than five years younger. The gap is probably only going to grow with every week they play from here on out - unless Harden surprises the world and carries Philly to a title next season.
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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#23 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 7, 2022 2:34 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:So I said Giannis.

A big thing for me is that Harden's been a massive negative these past 3 years because of his off-court impact. Beginning with him pushing the Rockets to trade Paul away, he's been hurting his own teams badly each year since


The more I think about the Paul-Harden tenureship the more it sours me on both men. It validates the critiques of both guys. Paul's detractors bring up his incessant carping. Here he was in a situation were he knew he was the 2nd best player. The team was playing at a championship level getting closer than he ever had before. Does he learn to moderate his personality? No! He's such a micromanager that he gets himself kicked off the team. I have to say my new boss is a Chris Paul type and I now understand why he irritates his teammates so much. I've had bad bosses before but he is the first who carps 24/7 and it is just tiring and saps your joy for work. I get why Harden and Blake and others disliked Chris.

For Harden, the image of him is that he's a guy who doesn't want to work that hard and takes off portions of the game. He has a teammate who is annoying but is clearly the best player he's played with since he's emerged as a star. He decided let's kick him off the team to bring on my friend who isn't half the player Paul is. And when his friend turns outs to be a trainwreck he stops playing hard so he can get traded. Basically he destroyed the company he works for.

It really reflects poorly on both guys. Paul for just being incapable of moderating his personality. Harden for being only able to grit and bear it for 2 years.

Say what you will about Shaq-Kobe. they may have detested each other but they made it work for many many years and peaked a lot higher as a partnership. And when they went their separate ways it was a lot more defensible. IMO they were very lucky to go on a long run in 04. And I think both of em knew if they capped out LA together they were capped as 2nd round fodder.


I totally agree with you about Paul-Harden generally, but because of how I posted at the time I have to say something more.

At the time, while I wasn't saying Harden was right, I was very critical of Paul. To me, part of Paul's job in Houston - which was a job he lobbied Harden for - was to build a positive relationship with Harden. Instead, it really felt like he treated Harden just like he treated Griffin, despite the fact Griffin obviously got super-annoyed by Paul and it soured their chemistry. On the Clippers Paul was the better player so more wiggle room makes sense, but when you're not the team's best player, you have to watch what you say, and I don't think Paul had the self-awareness to recognize how much he was pissing off Harden.

All that I think remains true...but that was also coming at a time where Harden didn't yet have the track record he does now. Yes there was a schism in the Rocket locker room when Dwight Howard was there, but Howard at the time was a post-prime former superstar who still thought he was a superstar and who was lobbying to play calling that didn't make sense even when he was at his best ("Let me post up to prove Shaq wrong!").

When the schism with Paul happened, that was essentially Strike 2 on Harden, and now that we've sense seen Strikes 3, 4, 5, etc, it seems pretty clear that Harden is a majorly flawed franchise player who does things he shouldn't, doesn't do some things he should, and whose apex opportunity to lead a team to a title came when Paul was there.

All of this doesn't make me say that the Houston fallout no longer tells us anything negative about Paul, but it does mean that I'm generally a bit less negative in my assessment toward anyone who had issues with Harden...even OKC who from the moment of the trade I bashed mercilessly for letting Harden go.

I still think it was a major mistake to let Harden go, but even before Harden's Houston exit, stuff had come out about the Thunder being uncomfortable with Harden's attitude whereas Westbrook's work ethic and related attitude was stellar. I can still be critical of the Thunder for failing to understand Harden's game potential and for banking on Westbrook as a decision maker, but as a franchise, if you feel like someone is going to be problematic interpersonally, it makes sense to prioritize other players you can see creating more the culture you want.
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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#24 » by falcolombardi » Tue Jun 7, 2022 3:11 pm

from an achievement or higher level of play sense is already giannis (although i dont feel comfortable using giannis ring to rank him over harden when the best harden team ever had to play the durant/curry/green warriors)

from a cumulative career value i may still go harden, he added a ton of value from 2012-2020~
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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#25 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Jun 7, 2022 3:52 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:So I said Giannis.

A big thing for me is that Harden's been a massive negative these past 3 years because of his off-court impact. Beginning with him pushing the Rockets to trade Paul away, he's been hurting his own teams badly each year since


The more I think about the Paul-Harden tenureship the more it sours me on both men. It validates the critiques of both guys. Paul's detractors bring up his incessant carping. Here he was in a situation were he knew he was the 2nd best player. The team was playing at a championship level getting closer than he ever had before. Does he learn to moderate his personality? No! He's such a micromanager that he gets himself kicked off the team. I have to say my new boss is a Chris Paul type and I now understand why he irritates his teammates so much. I've had bad bosses before but he is the first who carps 24/7 and it is just tiring and saps your joy for work. I get why Harden and Blake and others disliked Chris.

For Harden, the image of him is that he's a guy who doesn't want to work that hard and takes off portions of the game. He has a teammate who is annoying but is clearly the best player he's played with since he's emerged as a star. He decided let's kick him off the team to bring on my friend who isn't half the player Paul is. And when his friend turns outs to be a trainwreck he stops playing hard so he can get traded. Basically he destroyed the company he works for.

It really reflects poorly on both guys. Paul for just being incapable of moderating his personality. Harden for being only able to grit and bear it for 2 years.

Say what you will about Shaq-Kobe. they may have detested each other but they made it work for many many years and peaked a lot higher as a partnership. And when they went their separate ways it was a lot more defensible. IMO they were very lucky to go on a long run in 04. And I think both of em knew if they capped out LA together they were capped as 2nd round fodder.


I totally agree with you about Paul-Harden generally, but because of how I posted at the time I have to say something more.

At the time, while I wasn't saying Harden was right, I was very critical of Paul. To me, part of Paul's job in Houston - which was a job he lobbied Harden for - was to build a positive relationship with Harden. Instead, it really felt like he treated Harden just like he treated Griffin, despite the fact Griffin obviously got super-annoyed by Paul and it soured their chemistry. On the Clippers Paul was the better player so more wiggle room makes sense, but when you're not the team's best player, you have to watch what you say, and I don't think Paul had the self-awareness to recognize how much he was pissing off Harden.

All that I think remains true...but that was also coming at a time where Harden didn't yet have the track record he does now. Yes there was a schism in the Rocket locker room when Dwight Howard was there, but Howard at the time was a post-prime former superstar who still thought he was a superstar and who was lobbying to play calling that didn't make sense even when he was at his best ("Let me post up to prove Shaq wrong!").

When the schism with Paul happened, that was essentially Strike 2 on Harden, and now that we've sense seen Strikes 3, 4, 5, etc, it seems pretty clear that Harden is a majorly flawed franchise player who does things he shouldn't, doesn't do some things he should, and whose apex opportunity to lead a team to a title came when Paul was there.

All of this doesn't make me say that the Houston fallout no longer tells us anything negative about Paul, but it does mean that I'm generally a bit less negative in my assessment toward anyone who had issues with Harden...even OKC who from the moment of the trade I bashed mercilessly for letting Harden go.

I still think it was a major mistake to let Harden go, but even before Harden's Houston exit, stuff had come out about the Thunder being uncomfortable with Harden's attitude whereas Westbrook's work ethic and related attitude was stellar. I can still be critical of the Thunder for failing to understand Harden's game potential and for banking on Westbrook as a decision maker, but as a franchise, if you feel like someone is going to be problematic interpersonally, it makes sense to prioritize other players you can see creating more the culture you want.


Harden is lazy. He doesn't exercise properly. He doesn't eat properly. He can't exercise basic professionalism, such as acting like you care even if you don't.

Harden is selfish. His work ethic is selective. He'll try very hard on drives. He falls asleep on defensive rotations. He cares a lot about his stats and puts in insufficient effort off ball.

He also doesn't seem to have a personality that can get away with these things. The above will annoy almost all co-workers to some degree. But if you're charming enough you'll be giving a lot more of an allowance. Barkley was lazy and didn't take conditioning seriously at all. But his personality was such he could get away with more from teammates than Harden, who gives off a very cooler-than-thou hipster vibe.

All of these are good reasons to dislike him. But he's a good enough player, that if you're a 30+ Chris Paul you have to find a way to make it work. Even if you're going home and calling him a motherf-. Instead Chris talked to him like he was still in charge. Someone with Jame's makeup isn't going to tolerate it.

Frankly most of the ATGs are going to buck.
Kobe/MJ they'd stuff Paul into a trashcan. Honestly they'd beat him up.
Shaq would kick him off the team.
Wilt-Chris Paul would be a short term marriage.
KG/Magic would appreciate the basketball IQ but jaw back with Paul. And I think the lockerroom would quickly all gravitate to those two that Paul gets kicked off the team by mgmt even if KG/Magic want him.
Lebron is friends with Paul but I'd imagine working with Paul is a very different experience than playing with Paul. And Lebron is very much his own man. I see Paul being traded after a spell.

The ones who might take it:
Kareem put up with Oscar. Maybe he could put up with Paul.
I'm fairly confident Tim would put up with it since he was okay with Pop yelling at him. But remember he almost bailed to Orlando. What if the team was disappointing? I could see Tim leaving with a repeat of the OKC situation were the team is stuck with the worst of the ATGs.

I do think you could win a title with Paul. I'm higher on his performance with Los Angeles than you. But you need a very careful put together locker room because Paul's personality is a known problem. He's a perfectionist who is never going to stop pointing out the 1 minor thing you did wrong or that he perceives as being wrong. And most humans tire of that very quickly.

This is also why the drill sergant head coaches the media loves tend to flame out very quick in the pros. It works in college only because the roster turnover ensures people only have to deal with him for 4 years max.
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Re: Higher in your all-time list right now:Giannis vs Harden 

Post#26 » by LesGrossman » Tue Jun 7, 2022 4:05 pm

Are you serious with this question?

Giannis won it all on his home team, after going through years of adversity and coaches, as the key guy. How many active players can say they did that? Steph and...noone.

Meanwhile, Harden has been legendary meme material for his absolute zero effort defense and a game that is mainly constructed around baiting fouls and flopping. Even though he infamously forced his way in and out of several franchises he still fails to deliver when the spot lights are on. I see zero case for him in this comparison.
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