Is Pau Gasol a top 50 player all-time?

[70sFan]

About Gasol's defense - I'd say we should find a sweet spot for these hot takes. Gasol wasn't a good defender early in his career and he kept improving, but the biggest difference for him was Phil as a coach. Lakers were full of strong defenders, so his weaknesses were hidden and his strengths helped Lakers on the board and as a rim protector.

Gasol at his worst was weak defender, at his best in LA he was a clear positive, but never elite defender.

Nice job with the damage control, hehe.

Btw, those aren't "hot takes". Those are Spurs fans makes posts in a thread as they watch the Lakers vs Portland game.

Most posts during the game online are hot takes, even on RealGM - let alone there.

[An Unbiased Fan]

About Gasol's defense - I'd say we should find a sweet spot for these hot takes. Gasol wasn't a good defender early in his career and he kept improving, but the biggest difference for him was Phil as a coach. Lakers were full of strong defenders, so his weaknesses were hidden and his strengths helped Lakers on the board and as a rim protector.

Gasol at his worst was weak defender, at his best in LA he was a clear positive, but never elite defender.

I agree with this. Pau wasn't a bad defender, he just wasn't a high-quality one. And he did add to LA's length defensively which was a key asset during their runs

[LAL1947]

About Gasol's defense - I'd say we should find a sweet spot for these hot takes. Gasol wasn't a good defender early in his career and he kept improving, but the biggest difference for him was Phil as a coach. Lakers were full of strong defenders, so his weaknesses were hidden and his strengths helped Lakers on the board and as a rim protector.

Gasol at his worst was weak defender, at his best in LA he was a clear positive, but never elite defender.

Nice job with the damage control, hehe.

Btw, those aren't "hot takes". Those are Spurs fans makes posts in a thread as they watch the Lakers vs Portland game.

Most posts during the game online are hot takes, even on RealGM - let alone there.

True... but how often do you see fans of one team actually open up a separate thread to ask if a player on another team is the worst defender in the league? Not often, right? Must have been an abysmal performance on defense for that to happen.

Anyway, I think you have it right when you say he was a weak defender but could be a positive with his length when his weaknesses were hidden. It's how I remember him not just in LAL but in CHI too.

[LAL1947]

Btw, I've forgotten to ask this question...

Who do we think is more deserving of a place in the Top 75, Pau Gasol or Marc Gasol?

You can't say both, have to pick only one.

[70sFan]

Nice job with the damage control, hehe.

Btw, those aren't "hot takes". Those are Spurs fans makes posts in a thread as they watch the Lakers vs Portland game.

Most posts during the game online are hot takes, even on RealGM - let alone there.

True... but how often do you see fans of one team actually open up a separate thread to ask if a player on another team is the worst defender in the league? Not often, right? Must have been an abysmal performance on defense for that to happen.

Anyway, I think you have it right when you say he was a weak defender but could be a positive with his length when his weaknesses were hidden. It's how I remember him not just in LAL but in CHI too.

Well, I have seen threads about LeBron being the worst defender in the league... so I think we should take it with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't call Gasol a weak defender. He was weak at the beginning of his career, but he improved and became very solid at his peak. Even though he wasn't elite defensively, his defense in 2008-10 period was fundamental for Lakers lineups.

[70sFan]

Btw, I've forgotten to ask this question...

Who do we think is more deserving of a place in the Top 75, Pau Gasol or Marc Gasol?

You can't say both, have to pick only one.

If forced to choose, Pau. Much longer career and clearly better offensive player. Marc might peak higher (it's arguable), but his prime was worse, for duration if nothing else.

[Doctor MJ]

This is a myth though. The opinion of Kobe's career outside of the PC board, is what I and most Laker fans share. It's only been on the PC board that you get labelled a "Kobe fan" for expressing it. This thread is exhibit A, because again simply answering the thread topic and saying no Pau isn't quite Top 50...is somehow "propping up Kobe". That's why I asked who really has the bias, because it seems clear it's those who simply view any possible opinion that doesn't fit their narrative as being an agenda. Even though no list has him Top 50 anywhere nor was he included in the Top 75 list.

If someone says they think Kobe is a great defender in a thread then they get labeled a Kobe fan. Or a Top 10 player then you must be a Kobe fan. I grew up watching Magic and the showtime Lakers, he's was my favorite player. And I've probably spent more time arguing in favor for Dirk and DRob than any two players. But god help anyone who's ever said positive things about Kobe. Reminds me of the Tom Brady thing in the NFL with fans

Nah man, you're labeled a Kobe fan because your bias toward Kobe is overwhelming.

I mean dude, you recently brought up the '07-08 RPOY claiming that the anti-Kobe contingent there purposefully left him off the ballot to steer the award to another player, when it was literally the opposite of what happened. You see things through Kobe-colored glasses, and you always have. Doesn't make you a bad person, but you can't expect folks not to notice the patterns.

And to be clear: None of that has anything to do with where Kobe is ranked by other people. What I'm saying about you isn't about where you rank Kobe, but about your posting focus and the way it colors your perspective of others.

And to be fair to you and others here: That perspective coloring is likely shaped by the intensity of your engagement. There are plenty of people who rate Kobe highly but aren't hard-core internet fans on the matter. But you are, as are most all of us here, we debate, we get polarized, and we tend to see things through skewed perspectives. None of us are immune to it...but that doesn't mean it should simply be ignored when it becomes a trend worth talking about.

Re: Reminds of Brady. Well that makes sense because both players are so, so popular and both have to many titles.

As I say that though, the PC Board folks you're talking about are a particular distinct bunch. Realistically, anywhere where the folks tend to be (perhaps overly) serious with stats, Kobe is going to rank lower than elsewhere. If you're aware of a similar trend with Brady - that it's a similar hard-core analytically minded community that tends to, in your assessment, underrate him.

You mean the thread where I corrected and said it was the 2006 RPOY? A very random comment to bring up.

I mean you've clearly had an anti-Kobe bias since forever on Realgm. But I don't go places calling you a Kobe hater" because this is a discussion forum, and I what would be the point. My opinion stands out on the PC board because 1) I don't think +/- stats are correlative to player impact, 2) I feel Kobe deserved his All-defensive teams, 3) I feel Kobe is a Top 10 player all-time. Some here may disagree with any of those three areas, but I don't think that makes me a "Kobe fan". I'm a Laker fan and like both Kobe & Pau, and Fisher, and even guys like Sasha. I also like a lot of other players past & present and grew up watching Showtime. I don't see the agenda in having the same viewpoint that most people outside of Realgm share.

We can argue which is the right viewpoint, but like in some of the projects, people should argue the points, not perceived biases.

Okay, I'll leave it there.

[Doctor MJ]

Btw, I've forgotten to ask this question...

Who do we think is more deserving of a place in the Top 75, Pau Gasol or Marc Gasol?

You can't say both, have to pick only one.

I have have Pau sizably ahead, but will say that I can see arguments for Marc.

[NO-KG-AI]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

[NO-KG-AI]

I mean dude, you recently brought up the '07-08 RPOY claiming that the anti-Kobe contingent there purposefully left him off the ballot to steer the award to another player, when it was literally the opposite of what happened. You see things through Kobe-colored glasses, and you always have. Doesn't make you a bad person, but you can't expect folks not to notice the patterns.

I can't even think of anything else like this in board history. I'm baffled it tried to get painted in the opposite direction.

[Bologna Smasher]

I'd say he's close to it if he isn't already. He's definitely top 75, though. I think he's one of the more underappreciated players of the last 20 years. Still think he should have won finals MVP in 2010 as well.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

You keep projecting a lot of nonsense. No one even brought up Kobe into this thread until some said Pau isn't Top 50, and it wasn't posters you call "Kobe fans". Like get over it dude, what are you even going on about.

Does the PC board have a different view in general than the world outside of Realgm, yes. That's fine, but don't label posters as biased for holding the same view as the rest of the world because it differs from what you think. It you think the PC board knows more than anyone then so be it, but argue actual points, not baseless accusations at posters.

[NO-KG-AI]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

You keep projecting a lot of nonsense. No one even brought up Kobe into this thread until some said Pau isn't Top 50, and it wasn't posters you call "Kobe fans". Like get over it dude, what are you even going on about.

Does the PC board have a different view in general than the world outside of Realgm, yes. That's fine, but don't label posters as biased for holding the same view as the rest of the world because it differs from what you think. It you think the PC board knows more than anyone then so be it, but argue actual points, not baseless accusations at posters.

Lmao

[Hellcrooner]

Go to basketball reference.

then find the answer to this question.

How many players?
have :
scored the same or more points than pau in their career

PLUS at the sema tame taken the same or more rebounds

PULS at the same time given the same or more ast.
PLUS at the same time put the same or more blocks.


then when you have the answer come back with the stupid kobefan agendas trying to bring down his value
and i will dub you as stupid.

[Hellcrooner]

Btw, I've forgotten to ask this question...

Who do we think is more deserving of a place in the Top 75, Pau Gasol or Marc Gasol?

You can't say both, have to pick only one.

Lol Marc Gasol himself would smack into sense anyone that answers that he was remotely as good as his brother.

[naabzor]

Duncan
Malone
Giannis
Dirk
Garnett
Barkley
AD
Bosh
Mchale
Hayes


Are all clearly ahead of him


Gasol is somewhere in this group

Rodman
Webber
Jermaine O'Neal
Zbo
Draymond

What? Jermaine o Neal? Zbo? Are you serious? Bosh is better then Gasol too? How?

Pau Gasol never moved the needle for his team when he was in Memphis as a featured player. Gasol wasnt particularly good for lakers when they won those two titles. It was basically kobe bryant and an ensemble cast with Gasol being a marquee name. Gasol production is similar or slightly worse than all three of Jermaine O Neal Zbo and Bosh. Resume Bosh is clearly ahead of Gasol while Gasol is ahead of Jermaine O Neal and Zbo as far as career resume. Zbo never received much recognition or accolades during his career but dude was a monster for memphis especially in tge playoffs. He was a pf who can actually takeover a game with his scoring down low or face up.

18 - 10 and 19 - 11 in the playoffs ring runs is not particularly good? Then Bosh was way worse than that and Garnett still did not win until he teamed up with the celtics so?

[Stalwart]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous post I've ever read on Realgm lol. Must be trolling.

[Stalwart]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

You keep projecting a lot of nonsense. No one even brought up Kobe into this thread until some said Pau isn't Top 50, and it wasn't posters you call "Kobe fans". Like get over it dude, what are you even going on about.

Does the PC board have a different view in general than the world outside of Realgm, yes. That's fine, but don't label posters as biased for holding the same view as the rest of the world because it differs from what you think. It you think the PC board knows more than anyone then so be it, but argue actual points, not baseless accusations at posters.

But you have to remember, he knows more about the game than than 99.99% of the outside world and even most NBA players. Were talking to the experts here

[LAL1947]

Anyway, I think you have it right when you say he was a weak defender but could be a positive with his length when his weaknesses were hidden. It's how I remember him not just in LAL but in CHI too.

I wouldn't call Gasol a weak defender. He was weak at the beginning of his career, but he improved and became very solid at his peak. Even though he wasn't elite defensively, his defense in 2008-10 period was fundamental for Lakers lineups.

Well, let's agree to disagree. "High quality defender" (as Dhsilv tried to say) and "very solid defender" are simply not things I can say about Pau Gasol myself. He did some intelligent things on defense but was too slow and too soft. Especially for a big in that time period. Btw, when was his peak? He was 29YO in 2009-10, and Odom, Artest, Bynum and Kobe were covering his flaws on defense then.

Also, I wouldn't say "Pau's defense was fundamental to Lakers lineups". He was usually the 4th-5th best defender in our lineups. So I think it would be more accurate to say "Pau's height and versatility as a big was fundamental to our lineups"... because we could play him either at PF or C depending on match-ups and/or the availability of our guys, since we couldn't count on Bynum to be healthy (or to even play well consistently).

Anyway, I'm glad we got Pau to provide some needed quality in 2007-08. It was the shot in the arm our roster needed.

[NO-KG-AI]

Of all the guys who are literally the best and most thorough posters on here over the years, the PC board contingent that has contributed more to basketball knowledge and growth than the entirety of highlight reel lovers and casual fans combined, the ones that the Kobe fanclub on here loathes and call biased and group minded, they literally only have that one thing in common: They don't rate Kobe in the top10 or as a real threat to someone like MJ or LeBron.

It's a wide range of guys that have been posting since the early to late 2000's, they're from all over the world, have a widely varying top 10, have a wide range of views on what makes a basketball player great, or what style of team and construction is better or best, they have different favorite teams, different favorite players, and different favorite eras, and yet somehow they are lumped together as guys that only just want to hate on Kobe(, because there is a large contingent here whose entire online persona is based on defending Kobe even in threads that aren't about him, or putting him into arguments with GOAT candidates that he doesn't belong with, etc

It's exactly what Doctor MJ said, they think every thread is about Kobe, because the only way they can think about basketball is how it relates to Kobe, and they think that all these other guys that have put more thought into the game of basketball than 99.99999% of the globe or even most NBA players ever will, also feel the same way, and that any of their opinions on basketball are made with Kobe in mind first.

You keep projecting a lot of nonsense. No one even brought up Kobe into this thread until some said Pau isn't Top 50, and it wasn't posters you call "Kobe fans". Like get over it dude, what are you even going on about.

Does the PC board have a different view in general than the world outside of Realgm, yes. That's fine, but don't label posters as biased for holding the same view as the rest of the world because it differs from what you think. It you think the PC board knows more than anyone then so be it, but argue actual points, not baseless accusations at posters.

But you have to remember, he knows more about the game than than 99.99% of the outside world and even most NBA players. Were talking to the experts here

I wasn't referring to myself in the least, I hardly participated in most of those projects, phenomenal as they were. But I do know more than previously banned posters that come back just to defend Kobe's honor.