2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#381 » by falcolombardi » Tue May 31, 2022 11:28 pm

Spoiler:
Texas Chuck wrote:I mean its easier to find good defenders at positions other than PG, so by the token he helps. Most teams switch everything and most PG's can't. So he helps there.

I definitely think there is an advantage to having PG's who defend well and who can defend bigger players.

Agree though that Smart shouldn't be DPOY and might not even be the best defender on his own team and almost certainly isn't the most important one.


having a point guard who can switch on bigger players is comparable to having a center who can switch on smaller players

so is not like smart switching ability is more valuable than adebayo one regardless
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#382 » by Doctor MJ » Tue May 31, 2022 11:36 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:You cannot really say they added a new level of defense by having Marcus Smart who has been on the team longer than anyone (i know your point is that he has "slid" into the one). They have added Al Horford, Theis, acquired a new coach, have improvements from young raw players like White and Grant. I mean with all of those gigantic variables why would Marcus Smart playing the one (which quite frankly, Marcus Smart has always been a one) be credited as the largest catalyst for that?

The Celtics have had the #1 defense before with Kyrie Irving, and if are looking for a common thing with that team and this team it's that Al Horford (and Theis) was on both teams.


That perspective makes sense too.

Look I think the thing in the end is that when we evaluate the value of a given player, we're trying to judge an atom by looking at the molecule, and there's no one definitive way to do it.

What I'll say is if there was someone who was the clear cut most valuable Celtic defender in the data I see, and that guy wasn't Smart, then I'd be championing that other guy over Smart. Instead what I see on the Celtics is something where it really looks like an ensemble, and thus it's unclear with data who the team's DPOY should be.

Meanwhile, everything I've seen from the team itself suggests they believe it to be Smart and they give reasons that make sense. They talk about him as being the leader, tone setter, and active communicator of the defense. That stuff can be extremely valuable, and on a team where the defense is working this well, I think it probably is if the team says it is.

From there, it's just a question of whether someone else on another team is more worthy, but the field of candidates is marred by injury.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#383 » by Texas Chuck » Tue May 31, 2022 11:38 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
so is not like smart switching ability is more valuable than adebayo one regardless


I wouldn't say Smart is more valuable defender than Bam either. In fact I'd say he's clearly less valuable.

I'm just pointing out there are meaningful advantages to not having a point guard who will get targeted at the defensive end. Obviously in Smart's case you have to make offensive sacrifices to get that. He'd be nearly worthless on a bad team except as a culture setter, but on a good team his versatility is really valuable.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#384 » by dontcalltimeout » Wed Jun 1, 2022 12:11 am

I am working on a longer post, but I wanted to share some numbers I pulled that were instructive to me. I calculated relative offensive rating, defensive rating, and true shooting % for 8 stars. A player's relative on-court ortg is calculated by subtracting their on-court ortg from the defensive rating of their opponent .

Instead of using the season-long averages to estimate team strength, I adjusted for the presence of key players (for example, GSW games only when Curry and Draymond both played).

Image

Some stuff that jumps out to me:

- Jiimmy's turnovers are insanely low. He average like 1.1 turnovers per game against Boston.

- Jimmy's relative on-court Drtg is probably overstated because, while it does account for two games where Joel didn't play, it doesn't account for his diminished state when he returned.

- The Bucks defensive rating when Giannis played was bonkers.

- Tatum has average fewer points than expected, but he has been efficient.

- Curry's turnovers don't look too bad in this company. But it's amazing that he wasn't efficient by these standards for two rounds.

- Luka gets a ton of assists in the corners and at the rim. Curry gets a lot of high value assists too, and that's not even counting secondary assists.

- Doncic and Jokic got POINTS. Both looked like strong offenses too.

- Embiid had a really tough series against Miami, but the Sixers absolutely crushed his minutes against Toronto.

- Embiid is the weakest creator of this group.


Below you can see the team stats I used calculate relative efficiencies.

Spoiler:
Image
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#385 » by Lou Fan » Thu Jun 2, 2022 4:41 pm

I'm curious how much Herro's playoff struggles and injury hurt him for 6MOY in other people's eyes. Hard for me to vote for him considering it.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#386 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 2, 2022 5:59 pm

Lou Fan wrote:I'm curious how much Herro's playoff struggles and injury hurt him for 6MOY in other people's eyes. Hard for me to vote for him considering it.


Yup. I tend to way playoff struggles as particularly big for this award.

Now, in Herro's case, it frankly helps that I've seen Herro look good in the playoffs in the past, so I don't feel like he's got Trez-style red flag.

But still, if there's another candidate who was solid in the regular season and playoffs, they'll probably have an edge. Main guy on my mind right now is Grant Williams.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#387 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Jun 2, 2022 6:07 pm

Do players have to start less than 50% of all total games in regular season + play-offs or is it <50% for both regular season and play-offs individually to qualify for 6MOY?
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#388 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 2, 2022 6:18 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Do players have to start less than 50% of all total games in regular season + play-offs or is it <50% for both regular season and play-offs individually to qualify for 6MOY?


I generally say the rule is that a player has to be eligible for the NBA's regular season 6MOY in order to be eligible for our all-season award, which means that more than half of the games they played in the regular season needed to have been non-starting games.

So by this standard, if someone starts 36 games in the regular season, and comes off the bench in 46, but playing 20 games in the playoffs in which he starts in all of them, he's still eligible.

Feel free to ask more clarifying questions or state an objection to this approach.

I feel like the obvious counter to consider is the player who has all those numbers reversed - starts most games in the regular season, but overall ends up coming off the bench more due to a 6th man role in the playoffs. In all honesty, I can't recall a time where such a player has actually been in our discussion, and so I don't think we've ever taken a hard stance here.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#389 » by dontcalltimeout » Thu Jun 2, 2022 6:40 pm

Ability & Achievement:
an "ars poetica" on basketball analysis

Ability is what a player can do on the court, and achievement is what a player actually does. How to balance the two? Ability is something like goodness, a theoretical ideal that's impossible to pin down because reality never resembles a vacuum.(That doesn't mean it's not worth trying.) Achievement is all about context -- measured against expectations and the conditions of play. In evaluating the two, it's difficult not to rig the weights in favor of the playoffs. After all, if what matters is helping your team win championships, isn't it most important how you are able to perform through that gauntlet? Even looking at the regular season, we might evaluate players with an eye toward how their role translates to the post-season. A lot goes into that: some of it sheer ability, how resilient your game is, how you can adapt, how your defense holds up, whether you maintain efficiency when the looks get worse because the defense is chasing harder and now there are hands where they didn't use to be. (Some of it, sadly, is also related to a third "A": availability.)

And yet, of course, as always: we must be wary of the noise in these sample sizes. A rebound bouncing the wrong way can end a season; role players miss shots they usually make -- or get hot in the right couple of games. I believe we should try our darndest not to base all of our judgments on how a player looks in his best situation or in his worst. This post-season, I saw several examples of players who look unplayable in some series and dominant in others. To name a few:

- Brandon Clarke was a god amongst men in the first round but a minus in the second round.
- De'Anthony Melton and Steven Adams were the opposite -- couldn't see the floor against Minnesota, but both effective against Golden State.
- Against Dallas, Looney played twice as much per game as he did against Denver and looked every bit the kind of guy GS wants to play a lot (instead of a placeholder so that Draymond doesn't have to play center 48 minutes a night).

In that sense, we might define role players as those whose values fluctuate the most according to matchup.

But these extreme examples are instructive. Stars aren't likely to get benched for a series, but they are affected by matchups too. Small guards get cooked by the right predators; shot creators get overplayed by defenses who don't trust their teammates to hit shots; another defense, against another shot creator, may stay home and take away playmaking. More concretely, Dallas's strong wing defenders swallow up Chris Paul and Devin Booker, but are less equipped to navigate Curry and Poole's flitting around screens. And then look at how Memphis's athleticism and physicality gave that same Warriors team trouble. Even though, by definition, stars have more ways of affecting the game, they still have weaknesses that make them vulnerable against the right opponents.

The way I see it, we're all trying to balance ability and achievement, whether explicitly or implicitly. We look at a player's performance and try to figure out how his teammates and opponents made it possible. We look at what a player did and try to adjust for variance by curving back to what we expect from that player. Did Jordan Poole elevate his game against Denver or just get hot at an opportune time? On paper Jimmy Butler looks like the best scorer in the playoffs, yet teams didn't guard him like the Celtics guarded KD. Butler was in more advantageous positions to score, but he usually made the most of them too. And so on.

My goal this week and next is to produce short evaluations of the top seasons, what the playoffs proved or disproved, and the questions I still have, which will shake out into my reasonings for the major awards. I will be working through how much weight the post-season versus the first 82 games and how to deal with health, especially for guys who have chronic health concerns.

In 2022, I think there's a clear top 9 players. Here's how I see them at healthy levels:

Tier 1
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Nikola Jokic

Tier 2
Steph Curry
Joel Embiid

Tier 3
Jayson Tatum
LeBron James
Luka Doncic
Kevin Durant
Jimmy Butler

[For those interested, below is roughly where I see them in +/- terms. I know this exposes me more than I'm comfortable with, but this helps me concretize my evaluations and alerts me to where I may be overrating / underrating a guy.]

Spoiler:
Giannis Antetokounmpo (+3.0 / +2.5)
Nikola Jokic (+5.5 / -0.3)
Steph Curry (+5.0 / 0.0)
Joel Embiid (+3.0 / +1.8)
Jayson Tatum (+3.3 / +1.3)
LeBron James (+4.6 / +0.0)
Luka Doncic (+4.7 / -0.5)
Kevin Durant (+4.0 / +0.0)
Jimmy Butler (+2.8 / +1.2)

Battling for the 10th through 20th spots are:
- Chris Paul (up there on a per minute basis)
- Draymond Green (offense looks slightly worse this year?)
- Jrue Holiday (efficiency drops off hard in the playoffs, but consistently moves the needle).
Then... the one-way stars — Rudy Gobert, Trae Young, Karl-Anthony Towns, James Harden, Ja Morant, Donovan Mitchell — and Devin Booker, Pascal Siakam, and Bam Adebayo. These guys are all roughly All-NBA level for me and many of them are contenders for OPOY and DPOY.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#390 » by The-Power » Mon Jun 6, 2022 5:42 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I feel like the obvious counter to consider is the player who has all those numbers reversed - starts most games in the regular season, but overall ends up coming off the bench more due to a 6th man role in the playoffs. In all honesty, I can't recall a time where such a player has actually been in our discussion, and so I don't think we've ever taken a hard stance here.

Would be relevant to clarify this time around due to Jordan Poole's role.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#391 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jun 6, 2022 10:38 pm

The-Power wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I feel like the obvious counter to consider is the player who has all those numbers reversed - starts most games in the regular season, but overall ends up coming off the bench more due to a 6th man role in the playoffs. In all honesty, I can't recall a time where such a player has actually been in our discussion, and so I don't think we've ever taken a hard stance here.

Would be relevant to clarify this time around due to Jordan Poole's role.


Ah, well, no matter what happens, Poole is going to spend most of his games as a starter this year.

Through Game 2 of the Finals, Poole has started 56 out of 94 games, so I'd say he'd need to play 19 more games from the bench this year before he could be argued to have been primarily a 6th Man, and he can only play 5 more at most.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#392 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon Jun 6, 2022 11:26 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:Ability & Achievement:
an "ars poetica" on basketball analysis

Ability is what a player can do on the court, and achievement is what a player actually does. How to balance the two? Ability is something like goodness, a theoretical ideal that's impossible to pin down because reality never resembles a vacuum.(That doesn't mean it's not worth trying.) Achievement is all about context -- measured against expectations and the conditions of play. In evaluating the two, it's difficult not to rig the weights in favor of the playoffs. After all, if what matters is helping your team win championships, isn't it most important how you are able to perform through that gauntlet? Even looking at the regular season, we might evaluate players with an eye toward how their role translates to the post-season. A lot goes into that: some of it sheer ability, how resilient your game is, how you can adapt, how your defense holds up, whether you maintain efficiency when the looks get worse because the defense is chasing harder and now there are hands where they didn't use to be. (Some of it, sadly, is also related to a third "A": availability.)

And yet, of course, as always: we must be wary of the noise in these sample sizes. A rebound bouncing the wrong way can end a season; role players miss shots they usually make -- or get hot in the right couple of games. I believe we should try our darndest not to base all of our judgments on how a player looks in his best situation or in his worst. This post-season, I saw several examples of players who look unplayable in some series and dominant in others. To name a few:

- Brandon Clarke was a god amongst men in the first round but a minus in the second round.
- De'Anthony Melton and Steven Adams were the opposite -- couldn't see the floor against Minnesota, but both effective against Golden State.
- Against Dallas, Looney played twice as much per game as he did against Denver and looked every bit the kind of guy GS wants to play a lot (instead of a placeholder so that Draymond doesn't have to play center 48 minutes a night).

In that sense, we might define role players as those whose values fluctuate the most according to matchup.

But these extreme examples are instructive. Stars aren't likely to get benched for a series, but they are affected by matchups too. Small guards get cooked by the right predators; shot creators get overplayed by defenses who don't trust their teammates to hit shots; another defense, against another shot creator, may stay home and take away playmaking. More concretely, Dallas's strong wing defenders swallow up Chris Paul and Devin Booker, but are less equipped to navigate Curry and Poole's flitting around screens. And then look at how Memphis's athleticism and physicality gave that same Warriors team trouble. Even though, by definition, stars have more ways of affecting the game, they still have weaknesses that make them vulnerable against the right opponents.

The way I see it, we're all trying to balance ability and achievement, whether explicitly or implicitly. We look at a player's performance and try to figure out how his teammates and opponents made it possible. We look at what a player did and try to adjust for variance by curving back to what we expect from that player. Did Jordan Poole elevate his game against Denver or just get hot at an opportune time? On paper Jimmy Butler looks like the best scorer in the playoffs, yet teams didn't guard him like the Celtics guarded KD. Butler was in more advantageous positions to score, but he usually made the most of them too. And so on.

My goal this week and next is to produce short evaluations of the top seasons, what the playoffs proved or disproved, and the questions I still have, which will shake out into my reasonings for the major awards. I will be working through how much weight the post-season versus the first 82 games and how to deal with health, especially for guys who have chronic health concerns.

In 2022, I think there's a clear top 9 players. Here's how I see them at healthy levels:

Tier 1
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Nikola Jokic

Tier 2
Steph Curry
Joel Embiid

Tier 3
Jayson Tatum
LeBron James
Luka Doncic
Kevin Durant
Jimmy Butler

[For those interested, below is roughly where I see them in +/- terms. I know this exposes me more than I'm comfortable with, but this helps me concretize my evaluations and alerts me to where I may be overrating / underrating a guy.]

Spoiler:
Giannis Antetokounmpo (+3.0 / +2.5)
Nikola Jokic (+5.5 / -0.3)
Steph Curry (+5.0 / 0.0)
Joel Embiid (+3.0 / +1.8)
Jayson Tatum (+3.3 / +1.3)
LeBron James (+4.6 / +0.0)
Luka Doncic (+4.7 / -0.5)
Kevin Durant (+4.0 / +0.0)
Jimmy Butler (+2.8 / +1.2)

Battling for the 10th through 20th spots are:
- Chris Paul (up there on a per minute basis)
- Draymond Green (offense looks slightly worse this year?)
- Jrue Holiday (efficiency drops off hard in the playoffs, but consistently moves the needle).
Then... the one-way stars — Rudy Gobert, Trae Young, Karl-Anthony Towns, James Harden, Ja Morant, Donovan Mitchell — and Devin Booker, Pascal Siakam, and Bam Adebayo. These guys are all roughly All-NBA level for me and many of them are contenders for OPOY and DPOY.


I don't agree with all the particulars in this post but this is a damn good way of thinking about things.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#393 » by The-Power » Tue Jun 7, 2022 7:36 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
The-Power wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I feel like the obvious counter to consider is the player who has all those numbers reversed - starts most games in the regular season, but overall ends up coming off the bench more due to a 6th man role in the playoffs. In all honesty, I can't recall a time where such a player has actually been in our discussion, and so I don't think we've ever taken a hard stance here.

Would be relevant to clarify this time around due to Jordan Poole's role.


Ah, well, no matter what happens, Poole is going to spend most of his games as a starter this year.

Through Game 2 of the Finals, Poole has started 56 out of 94 games, so I'd say he'd need to play 19 more games from the bench this year before he could be argued to have been primarily a 6th Man, and he can only play 5 more at most.

Makes sense. I wrongly understood your post as ‘what if a player starts a majority of games in the RS but comes off the bench in the PS’, essentially splitting the two parts of the season. If the majority of total games rule still applies, then Poole is obviously not eligible.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#394 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 7, 2022 7:57 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:Ability & Achievement:
an "ars poetica" on basketball analysis

Ability is what a player can do on the court, and achievement is what a player actually does. How to balance the two? Ability is something like goodness, a theoretical ideal that's impossible to pin down because reality never resembles a vacuum.(That doesn't mean it's not worth trying.) Achievement is all about context -- measured against expectations and the conditions of play. In evaluating the two, it's difficult not to rig the weights in favor of the playoffs. After all, if what matters is helping your team win championships, isn't it most important how you are able to perform through that gauntlet? Even looking at the regular season, we might evaluate players with an eye toward how their role translates to the post-season. A lot goes into that: some of it sheer ability, how resilient your game is, how you can adapt, how your defense holds up, whether you maintain efficiency when the looks get worse because the defense is chasing harder and now there are hands where they didn't use to be. (Some of it, sadly, is also related to a third "A": availability.)

And yet, of course, as always: we must be wary of the noise in these sample sizes. A rebound bouncing the wrong way can end a season; role players miss shots they usually make -- or get hot in the right couple of games. I believe we should try our darndest not to base all of our judgments on how a player looks in his best situation or in his worst. This post-season, I saw several examples of players who look unplayable in some series and dominant in others. To name a few:

- Brandon Clarke was a god amongst men in the first round but a minus in the second round.
- De'Anthony Melton and Steven Adams were the opposite -- couldn't see the floor against Minnesota, but both effective against Golden State.
- Against Dallas, Looney played twice as much per game as he did against Denver and looked every bit the kind of guy GS wants to play a lot (instead of a placeholder so that Draymond doesn't have to play center 48 minutes a night).

In that sense, we might define role players as those whose values fluctuate the most according to matchup.

But these extreme examples are instructive. Stars aren't likely to get benched for a series, but they are affected by matchups too. Small guards get cooked by the right predators; shot creators get overplayed by defenses who don't trust their teammates to hit shots; another defense, against another shot creator, may stay home and take away playmaking. More concretely, Dallas's strong wing defenders swallow up Chris Paul and Devin Booker, but are less equipped to navigate Curry and Poole's flitting around screens. And then look at how Memphis's athleticism and physicality gave that same Warriors team trouble. Even though, by definition, stars have more ways of affecting the game, they still have weaknesses that make them vulnerable against the right opponents.

The way I see it, we're all trying to balance ability and achievement, whether explicitly or implicitly. We look at a player's performance and try to figure out how his teammates and opponents made it possible. We look at what a player did and try to adjust for variance by curving back to what we expect from that player. Did Jordan Poole elevate his game against Denver or just get hot at an opportune time? On paper Jimmy Butler looks like the best scorer in the playoffs, yet teams didn't guard him like the Celtics guarded KD. Butler was in more advantageous positions to score, but he usually made the most of them too. And so on.

My goal this week and next is to produce short evaluations of the top seasons, what the playoffs proved or disproved, and the questions I still have, which will shake out into my reasonings for the major awards. I will be working through how much weight the post-season versus the first 82 games and how to deal with health, especially for guys who have chronic health concerns.


So, wanted to say, that I love all of this. You're clearly thinking stuff through.

I particularly like your point about role players having high match-up variance in impact capacity, as that's something I've been thinking about too.

Let me add this: While we see this most clearly from series to series, we can also see it from adjustment to adjustment within the series, and in general we'd expect that a player who has enough impact should be adjusted against until an equilibrium is reached.

What this means is that a player who isn't important enough for the opponent to focus on might end up having the best impact stats - particularly per minute in cases where guys play in limited minutes - but until we see teams try to stop that player's impact, we don't actually no about his resilience.

I'm on the verge of going on a major tangent here, but think I'll refrain.

dontcalltimeout wrote:[For those interested, below is roughly where I see them in +/- terms. I know this exposes me more than I'm comfortable with, but this helps me concretize my evaluations and alerts me to where I may be overrating / underrating a guy.]

Spoiler:
Giannis Antetokounmpo (+3.0 / +2.5)
Nikola Jokic (+5.5 / -0.3)
Steph Curry (+5.0 / 0.0)
Joel Embiid (+3.0 / +1.8)
Jayson Tatum (+3.3 / +1.3)
LeBron James (+4.6 / +0.0)
Luka Doncic (+4.7 / -0.5)
Kevin Durant (+4.0 / +0.0)
Jimmy Butler (+2.8 / +1.2)

Battling for the 10th through 20th spots are:
- Chris Paul (up there on a per minute basis)
- Draymond Green (offense looks slightly worse this year?)
- Jrue Holiday (efficiency drops off hard in the playoffs, but consistently moves the needle).
Then... the one-way stars — Rudy Gobert, Trae Young, Karl-Anthony Towns, James Harden, Ja Morant, Donovan Mitchell — and Devin Booker, Pascal Siakam, and Bam Adebayo. These guys are all roughly All-NBA level for me and many of them are contenders for OPOY and DPOY.


Wanted to chime in on this specifically. I can see you bracing yourself with the "exposure" and I totally get why, but I'm glad to see folks being willing to just lay stuff out.

I am expecting that you're not too, too attached to these specific numbers and are more using those numbers to force yourself to commit to something - that commitment I tend to see as an unavoidable thing when you're doing analysis on your own. Whether it's a +/- estimate or anything else, it gives you something tangible to end one run of analysis that you can then reflect on.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#395 » by Lou Fan » Tue Jun 7, 2022 8:55 pm

Just finished a rewatch of game 2 and my main takeaway from Curry so far is how well he's held up on defense. I actually think he's been a clear significant plus (at least for a guard) on that end thus far.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#396 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jun 7, 2022 9:12 pm

Lou Fan wrote:Just finished a rewatch of game 2 and my main takeaway from Curry so far is how well he's held up on defense. I actually think he's been a clear significant plus (at least for a guard) on that end thus far.


Agreed. I think we're seeing clear signs that he's dedicated his training so that he can't get picked on like he used to.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#397 » by Colbinii » Tue Jun 7, 2022 9:18 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Lou Fan wrote:Just finished a rewatch of game 2 and my main takeaway from Curry so far is how well he's held up on defense. I actually think he's been a clear significant plus (at least for a guard) on that end thus far.


Agreed. I think we're seeing clear signs that he's dedicated his training so that he can't get picked on like he used to.


Yup--strength and stamina have been his physical trademarks and improvements [His stamina has always been great, now its GOAT level considering his movement over the court of a game].
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#398 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Jun 7, 2022 10:59 pm

So, some things really starting to take shape for me:

DPOY: Gobert has this locked
OPOY: Jokic has this locked
POY: Jokic, Giannis, Curry look to be the top 3 in that order and I don't see Tatum barging in nor Curry dropping out regardless of what happens here.

Some things I'm still weighing.

COY: Kerr and Udoka are certainly making me consider them when I had neither on my ballot entering the playoffs. A couple of guys I thought were locks, had some bad moments in the playoffs. I was particularly disappointed in Jenkins which I know to some will feel unfair considering he lost his best player, but I thought he made some really questionable lineup choices against the Warriors. I didn't have Kidd in the mix, but his team seems to have in some ways broken two franchises and he clearly outcoached very good coaches Snyder and Monty in the first 2 rounds. And its hard to argue with the defense he got out of a lineup with no elite defenders and really only 3 good ones.

EOY: I hadn't been considering Brad Stevens, but though his moves were largely small other than replacing himself, some players he subtracted erasing them as defensive liabilities proved to be really smart. I didn't like the move for White and hated the move for Theis, but that just shows why I'm only doing it on the internet and he does it in real life. I hated the Warriors decision to just keep all their picks/youth and just make some signings on the edges, but they trusted their core and they are in the Finals and still have all those pieces towards a future. Normally we focus on the moves that are made, but sometimes the moves you don't make matter. Riley did Riley things again. Morey managed to salvage Simmons into the guy he wanted all along, but then that guy wasn't very good. How do I judge this?

6MOY -- I find myself not really invested in any of the candidates here too much.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#399 » by dontcalltimeout » Wed Jun 8, 2022 3:57 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Wanted to chime in on this specifically. I can see you bracing yourself with the "exposure" and I totally get why, but I'm glad to see folks being willing to just lay stuff out.

I am expecting that you're not too, too attached to these specific numbers and are more using those numbers to force yourself to commit to something - that commitment I tend to see as an unavoidable thing when you're doing analysis on your own. Whether it's a +/- estimate or anything else, it gives you something tangible to end one run of analysis that you can then reflect on.


Thanks, Doc I think you get what I'm trying to do. Even knowing that it's overly simplistic, committing to a provisional evaluation is sometimes the only way to make progress beyond my own feelings that player x is better than player. There have definitely been times where putting pen to paper showed me that I don't actually think what I think I thought about a player (because of what it implied that his offensive or defensive impact had to be to justify my previous thinking). Also: analysis has to proceed provisionally, or not at all.

So I'm trying to embrace that.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#400 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jun 8, 2022 4:53 am

dontcalltimeout wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Wanted to chime in on this specifically. I can see you bracing yourself with the "exposure" and I totally get why, but I'm glad to see folks being willing to just lay stuff out.

I am expecting that you're not too, too attached to these specific numbers and are more using those numbers to force yourself to commit to something - that commitment I tend to see as an unavoidable thing when you're doing analysis on your own. Whether it's a +/- estimate or anything else, it gives you something tangible to end one run of analysis that you can then reflect on.


Thanks, Doc I think you get what I'm trying to do. Even knowing that it's overly simplistic, committing to a provisional evaluation is sometimes the only way to make progress beyond my own feelings that player x is better than player. There have definitely been times where putting pen to paper showed me that I don't actually think what I think I thought about a player (because of what it implied that his offensive or defensive impact had to be to justify my previous thinking). Also: analysis has to proceed provisionally, or not at all.

So I'm trying to embrace that.


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