Tatum VS Luka

[Pelly24]

Luka is a great player but he is a ball hog on offense. Until he stops playing hero ball and starts committing to playing some defense and getting his teammates more involved they will never win a championship. If celtics win the nba title and Tatum wins finals mvp he has to be ahead of luka.

To be honest, if Luka were on the Celtics instead of Jayson, they'd unquestionably win the championship, easily. Their defense would take a hit, but Jaylen is a consistent No. 2 option Luka has never had, and Hrford and Smart are also better than anyone else on the mavericks. These guys are not similar levels as players. Luka is maybe the best playmaker in the league and is a much more resilient scorer. He's a better finisher, better ballhandler. Can slow a game down break you down anyw hich way. Tatum is top 10, but luka is in another tier.

[LAL1947]

Luka is a great player but he is a ball hog on offense. Until he stops playing hero ball and starts committing to playing some defense and getting his teammates more involved they will never win a championship. If celtics win the nba title and Tatum wins finals mvp he has to be ahead of luka.

These guys are not similar levels as players. Luka is maybe the best playmaker in the league

Agreed, and I've been saying this for more than two years now, i.e., Luka is the best playmaker in the league... along with Jokic and Trae Young. Those guys are probably in a tier on their own right now, when it comes to play-making. Then comes CP3, Darius Garland, Lamelo Ball, Harden, Lebron... probably in that order.

[tsherkin]

I'm not ignoring anything, but if we debating about his playing style, shot selection...eFG% is more relevant. FT% is easier to fix too, especially if we know that Luka was 80%+ FT shooter in Europe.

No, it isn't more relevant, because he's objectively still leaving those scoring opportunities on the table. Meantime, Europe means nothing because he's taken over 2,000 FTA in the NBA and shot 73.7% from the line in the regular season. An additional 250 in the postseason and he's shot 69.2% (although 77% this postseason). He is what he is, which is not a terrific FT shooter, and it impacts his scoring efficiency. Ignoring aspects of his efficiency because they are inconvenient isn't really appropriate.

Bottom line is, Luka is only 23 years old, pretty good,

That certainly isn't up for debate, agreed.

Talking about him like he's already finished product is totally wrong. Especially those Harden and Melo comparisons.

Well, we aren't, but we are looking at where he's at. You said he was efficient; that has not been the case. He hasn't been dreadfully INefficient, but he has very specifically not been an efficient scorer so far in his career. If this was a decade ago, sure. At 57, 58% TS, we'd have been having a very different conversation around 2010. But the league has changed, and thus evaluation inside his own environment and relative to his peers is not quite as kind to that specific number as it would have been in decades past. As I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see how he develops and it is interesting to see him maintaining his RS TS% into the postseason with such usage. He shoots a lot. That's a strategy with very limited utility when the player shooting in volume isn't deviating from league average efficiency by a notable margin, which is an age-old issue with volume scoring stretching back to the beginning of the sport. It's not a new problem, and it's something Luka is going to have to work on. He certainly has the time, but it isn't accurate to call him efficient NOW.

[Bob8]

I'm not ignoring anything, but if we debating about his playing style, shot selection...eFG% is more relevant. FT% is easier to fix too, especially if we know that Luka was 80%+ FT shooter in Europe.

No, it isn't more relevant, because he's objectively still leaving those scoring opportunities on the table. Meantime, Europe means nothing because he's taken over 2,000 FTA in the NBA and shot 73.7% from the line in the regular season. An additional 250 in the postseason and he's shot 69.2% (although 77% this postseason). He is what he is, which is not a terrific FT shooter, and it impacts his scoring efficiency. Ignoring aspects of his efficiency because they are inconvenient isn't really appropriate.

Bottom line is, Luka is only 23 years old, pretty good,

That certainly isn't up for debate, agreed.

Talking about him like he's already finished product is totally wrong. Especially those Harden and Melo comparisons.

Well, we aren't, but we are looking at where he's at. You said he was efficient; that has not been the case. He hasn't been dreadfully INefficient, but he has very specifically not been an efficient scorer so far in his career. If this was a decade ago, sure. At 57, 58% TS, we'd have been having a very different conversation around 2010. But the league has changed, and thus evaluation inside his own environment and relative to his peers is not quite as kind to that specific number as it would have been in decades past. As I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see how he develops and it is interesting to see him maintaining his RS TS% into the postseason with such usage. He shoots a lot. That's a strategy with very limited utility when the player shooting in volume isn't deviating from league average efficiency by a notable margin, which is an age-old issue with volume scoring stretching back to the beginning of the sport. It's not a new problem, and it's something Luka is going to have to work on. He certainly has the time, but it isn't accurate to call him efficient NOW.

Who is efficient by your standards? We can look at young players, not bigs, who made All Nba team this year.

Booker 56.6%
Trae 53.6%
Ja 56%
Tatum 56.9%
Giannis 57.7%

Luka is the best with 58% TS in playoffs. Maybe your standards for TS% is a bit too high. Very difficult to have very big volume, mostly unassisted shots like Luka has and great TS%. And the only problem that dragging his TS% down are FT%. Which is the easiest problem to fix.

Luka is with 32.5 points in playoffs far the best scorer of that group too. Far the best scorer and the best TS% looks pretty special for me. Luka has 32.5/9/8, TS% 58, 1.5 steals, PER 28, being only 23 years old. And we're debating, if he's good enough?

[mowcrowbar]

Give Luka the same roster, he'd be a multiple time champion by now.

[DroseReturnChi]

"No, it isn't more relevant, because he's objectively still leaving those scoring opportunities on the table. Meantime, Europe means nothing because he's taken over 2,000 FTA in the NBA and shot 73.7% from the line in the regular season. An additional 250 in the postseason and he's shot 69.2% (although 77% this postseason). He is what he is, which is not a terrific FT shooter, and it impacts his scoring efficiency. Ignoring aspects of his efficiency because they are inconvenient isn't really appropriate."

thats a ridiculous statement when hes played yrs professionally in europe and has a good track record of 80% ft shooting was never a issue for him even in RM i mainly criticized for being manu ginobili which would be a bust off the bench. taking 2000 ft means nothing out of his future 20 yr career sample size. Luka isnt afraid like Lebron where his ft implodes hes just fatigued would my guess. His mechanics is fine to end up as 80% shooter not curry level but not a liability like your trying to paint. I too was concerned he shot 50% post season last yr but he shot close to 80% theres no reason to beat up a dead horse.

[SilverQuick]

They are apple and orange, not comparable . Diffent positions, different circumstances, different carrer path,
What we saw so far , teams can be built on both. Carry on lol

[SelfishPlayer]

....
Next year Luka could come in shape and legitimately win a ring and change everything. People - Dallas was in the final 4. Luka has a team that can win a ring if Tatum does…

Luka and Tatum are both so young and so good that it’s good to be a Celtics fan.

Tatum is a 6’10” a Kobe acolyte…. Tatum is closer to Giannis or shaqs or KDs height than Kobe and in todays small nba can guard 5 positions.

Btw I’m not hating on Luka to promote tatum. I just think it’s insane that some people would rather have potentially a hardensq player over a potential a 6’10 kobe like player…

More like a 6'8 Lebron/Magic type of player over a 6'10 kobe like player.

We are talking about a potential top3 player of all time over a potential top10 player of all time.

Luka has incorporated Harden's entire game.

[mpoo_sin]

....
Next year Luka could come in shape and legitimately win a ring and change everything. People - Dallas was in the final 4. Luka has a team that can win a ring if Tatum does…

Luka and Tatum are both so young and so good that it’s good to be a Celtics fan.

Tatum is a 6’10” a Kobe acolyte…. Tatum is closer to Giannis or shaqs or KDs height than Kobe and in todays small nba can guard 5 positions.

Btw I’m not hating on Luka to promote tatum. I just think it’s insane that some people would rather have potentially a hardensq player over a potential a 6’10 kobe like player…

More like a 6'8 Lebron/Magic type of player over a 6'10 kobe like player.

We are talking about a potential top3 player of all time over a potential top10 player of all time.

Luka has incorporated Harden's entire game.

Doncic is already more versatile than Harden ever was. He is also mostly operating out of a PnR.
They both are elite at dribbling and they both utilize the stepback 3.

There are some similarities, but there are a lot more similarities with playertypes of Lebron or Magic.

[SelfishPlayer]

More like a 6'8 Lebron/Magic type of player over a 6'10 kobe like player.

We are talking about a potential top3 player of all time over a potential top10 player of all time.

Luka has incorporated Harden's entire game.

Doncic is already more versatile than Harden ever was. He is also mostly operating out of a PnR.
They both are elite at dribbling and they both utilize the stepback 3.

There are some similarities, but there are a lot more similarities with playertypes of Lebron or Magic.

Luka has nothing in common with Magic and Lebron at all. Luka is literally a bigger James Harden. Luka is utilizing Harden's iso dribble dribble dribble style, the step back jump shot that Harden created, and the ability to dominate the NBA in points/assists/turnovers/no championships. Harden used the pick and roll a bunch a few seasons under D'antoni.

[mpoo_sin]

Luka has incorporated Harden's entire game.

Doncic is already more versatile than Harden ever was. He is also mostly operating out of a PnR.
They both are elite at dribbling and they both utilize the stepback 3.

There are some similarities, but there are a lot more similarities with playertypes of Lebron or Magic.

Luka has nothing in common with Magic and Lebron at all. Luka is literally a bigger James Harden. Luka is utilizing Harden's iso dribble dribble dribble style, the step back jump shot that Harden created, and the ability to dominate the NBA in points/assists/turnovers/no championships. Harden used the pick and roll a bunch a few seasons under D'antoni.

You obviously do not know the game. I wonder if you have ever played or coached at least at the most basic levels.
Your take (and even if you post a thousand different versions of it, it still remains just one take) is just bad. I do not bother to give you a better picture. You do not deserve it.

What you do deserve is all the crow you are about to eat in the next 10+ years.

[SelfishPlayer]

Doncic is already more versatile than Harden ever was. He is also mostly operating out of a PnR.
They both are elite at dribbling and they both utilize the stepback 3.

There are some similarities, but there are a lot more similarities with playertypes of Lebron or Magic.

Luka has nothing in common with Magic and Lebron at all. Luka is literally a bigger James Harden. Luka is utilizing Harden's iso dribble dribble dribble style, the step back jump shot that Harden created, and the ability to dominate the NBA in points/assists/turnovers/no championships. Harden used the pick and roll a bunch a few seasons under D'antoni.

You obviously do not know the game. I wonder if you have ever played or coached at least at the most basic levels.
Your take (and even if you post a thousand different versions of it, it still remains just one take) is just bad. I do not bother to give you a better picture. You do not deserve it.

What you do deserve is all the crow you are about to eat in the next 10+ years.

You can't disprove the truth in the message so you focus on the messenger. Luka is a creation of James Harden.

[Archx]

...the step back jump shot that Harden created

Harden invented step back? Well sure if you started watching basketball in 2015 or so, lol...

[SelfishPlayer]

...the step back jump shot that Harden created

Harden invented step back? Well sure if you started watching basketball in 2015 or so, lol...

The footwork in his stepback he invented.

[MavfanAus]

...the step back jump shot that Harden created

Harden invented step back? Well sure if you started watching basketball in 2015 or so, lol...

Just when you think his takes couldn't get any more embarrassing.......

[SelfishPlayer]

...the step back jump shot that Harden created

Harden invented step back? Well sure if you started watching basketball in 2015 or so, lol...

Just when you think his takes couldn't get any more embarrassing.......

Luka stole Harden's move and approach to basketball. Harden's step back is referred to as such by the entire planet. NBA ref explains why the James Harden step-back jumper isn't traveling https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-referee-james-harden-step-back-jumper-travel-basketball-zach-zarba-2018-4

[CobraCommander]

More like a 6'8 Lebron/Magic type of player over a 6'10 kobe like player.

We are talking about a potential top3 player of all time over a potential top10 player of all time.

Luka has incorporated Harden's entire game.

Doncic is already more versatile than Harden ever was. He is also mostly operating out of a PnR.
They both are elite at dribbling and they both utilize the stepback 3.

There are some similarities, but there are a lot more similarities with playertypes of Lebron or Magic.

The real similarity with harden and Luka is usage, shot selection, leading the league in TOs and bad defense. Prime harden was vastly superior to Luka because he was more efficient and his defense improved somewhat.

People that don’t see that Luka and Harden similarities when Luka coming in after harden doing the machine gun dribble and shooting 9 step back 3s a game POST harden they are simply lying to themselves or I’m crazy...both can be true

Harden pretty much changed the game with shooting a ton of the step back 3s and it opened up hardens drive to the lane- When harden and Luka make one step back 3 the defense is at their mercy cause once their man tries to get up on the 3 it gives a slower Luka and harden a chance to get past their man and once they get in the lane...it opens up 3 point shooters as the defense scrambles... and if the defense doesn’t help properly...Luka and harden going to the lane cause they can score on big men around the basket. And it also results in a trip to the line where harden shoots 85% and Luka 73% - either way they getting points

Harden is a top 75 player and a MVP that has done a lot in this league - who has played better than Luka ever has in the nba. Prime Hardens is considered The best one on one player in nba history. no one is saying Luka is the best ever at anything yet...so I don’t see why people see it as an insult to compare Luka to harden. Explain please.

[CobraCommander]

Harden invented step back? Well sure if you started watching basketball in 2015 or so, lol...

Just when you think his takes couldn't get any more embarrassing.......

Luka stole Harden's move and approach to basketball. Harden's step back is referred to as such by the entire planet. NBA ref explains why the James Harden step-back jumper isn't traveling https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-referee-james-harden-step-back-jumper-travel-basketball-zach-zarba-2018-4

You mean it’s actually called the harden step back and people acting like HARDEN didn’t make it relevant in the NBA....and the 23 year old Luka didn’t watch harden do it with success before he came to the nba..... you know who doesn’t do the harden step back very often...Lebron and magic...and I don’t think they did it at all before Harden lol

[nikster]

I'm not ignoring anything, but if we debating about his playing style, shot selection...eFG% is more relevant. FT% is easier to fix too, especially if we know that Luka was 80%+ FT shooter in Europe.

No, it isn't more relevant, because he's objectively still leaving those scoring opportunities on the table. Meantime, Europe means nothing because he's taken over 2,000 FTA in the NBA and shot 73.7% from the line in the regular season. An additional 250 in the postseason and he's shot 69.2% (although 77% this postseason). He is what he is, which is not a terrific FT shooter, and it impacts his scoring efficiency. Ignoring aspects of his efficiency because they are inconvenient isn't really appropriate.

Bottom line is, Luka is only 23 years old, pretty good,

That certainly isn't up for debate, agreed.

Talking about him like he's already finished product is totally wrong. Especially those Harden and Melo comparisons.

Well, we aren't, but we are looking at where he's at. You said he was efficient; that has not been the case. He hasn't been dreadfully INefficient, but he has very specifically not been an efficient scorer so far in his career. If this was a decade ago, sure. At 57, 58% TS, we'd have been having a very different conversation around 2010. But the league has changed, and thus evaluation inside his own environment and relative to his peers is not quite as kind to that specific number as it would have been in decades past. As I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see how he develops and it is interesting to see him maintaining his RS TS% into the postseason with such usage. He shoots a lot. That's a strategy with very limited utility when the player shooting in volume isn't deviating from league average efficiency by a notable margin, which is an age-old issue with volume scoring stretching back to the beginning of the sport. It's not a new problem, and it's something Luka is going to have to work on. He certainly has the time, but it isn't accurate to call him efficient NOW.

I do think eFG% is more important when discussing his shot selection. If his FT% improves, his TS% could go way up without any change to his shot selection. Plus drawing freethrows is almost always a net positive, even if not the most efficient at the line. That said, if just talking about efficiency in general TS% much more important

[CobraCommander]

It depends how we evaluate playmaking. Doncic has the ball in his hands so much and is a barest passer and dribbler.

Tatum is more of a shooter/scorer.

Tatum’s defense is light years better than Lukas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If D is suddenly so important, why DPOY is getting 17 mio and only offensive players like Trae super max? Maybe offensive game is still valuable more?

You win...defense isn’t important lol -

With this post I finally understand you....