O'Connor: Bulls interested in Gobert and Mitchell Robinson

[Andi Obst]

I can get Whiteside to do what Gobert does for half of the MLE but without giving up any assets.

This has to be a joke I don't get. No way this is a real unironical post.

DRTG Rudy Gobert ON: 107.86 (would be 4th in the league)

DRTG Hassan Whiteside ON: 112.72 (21st)

[Andi Obst]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

If he's extremely cheap as a free agent and he's fine with a bench role, maybe. But that's certainly not something I'd worry about right now.

[Jimako10]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Here's a better question, do we find the potential of Pat Williams while being behind the pecking order of Zach/DD/Vuc?

I think not, and if we actually want to see if PWill has "it", one of those big 3 has to go.

[DuckIII]

https://allchgo.com/2022/06/08/why-i-would-love-if-the-bulls-traded-patrick-williams-for-rudy-gobert/

Per Will Gottlieb

interesting wasn't he against this yesterday?

I think a lot of us are this way.

We all realize how dominant of a player Gobert is, but you also can't ignore the fact that he doesn't directly address the things that proved to be our downfall in the playoffs (shooting).

Gobert absolutely does improve a major weakness on this team. Yes our shooting was poor in 4 playoff games and we were a low volume three point team, but it’s not that hard to find three point shooters. Not a piece of cake, but not hard. Finding one player that completely overhauls your entire interior defense is nearly impossible.

[DuckIII]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

I don’t think it’s missed. It’s more that none of us even consider extending him and most want to affirmatively get rid of him.

[chitownsports4ever]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Here's a better question, do we find the potential of Pat Williams while being behind the pecking order of Zach/DD/Vuc?

I think not, and if we actually want to see if PWill has "it", one of those big 3 has to go.

LOL no one has to go if a player has it you would see it every time they stepped on the floor . The biggest indicator a player not having it is that he can only perform if hes the only good player on the team.

I think ultimately the question is how much more are the Bulls gonna give Pat before he actually earns something.

People rip Coby but he has actually gone out and won multiple games meanwhile people are suggesting Pat cant play because we have good players ? How many players did the Raptors have to get rid of so that Barnes could show he has it ?

[LateNight]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Here's a better question, do we find the potential of Pat Williams while being behind the pecking order of Zach/DD/Vuc?

I think not, and if we actually want to see if PWill has "it", one of those big 3 has to go.

LOL no one has to go if a player has it you would see it every time they stepped on the floor . The biggest indicator a player not having it is that he can only perform if hes the only good player on the team.

I think ultimately the question is how much more are the Bulls gonna give Pat before he actually earns something.

People rip Coby but he has actually gone out and won multiple games meanwhile people are suggesting Pat cant play because we have good players ? How many players did the Raptors have to get rid of so that Barnes could show he has it ?

He’s played 88 games in two years with some clutch moments in there. His perimeter shooting kept us in a few close games. He’s 20 years old.

I’m not saying he’s a superstar, but there’s no reason to think he’s worth giving up on

[sco]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

I think Doug did some calcs and noted that Vuc performed at around a $10M value level last season. Would I extend him for that? Sure! Would he consider a 3/$30M extension? Doubtful.

[chefo]

To me it's simple--if you can get all-NBA players for trash (or mediocrity) you do it. I don't care about Jerry's check book. Vuc at 25 is waaaaay worse in terms of dollars spent per impact on court than Gobert is at 45, or whatever he makes. He was good enough to drag one of the worst defensive squads in the league to a top 10 rating just by himself. Guys that you can actually design a scheme on D around, guys like Timmy, Garnett, etc. are actually harder to find than guys that can score a lot, or efficiently.

To the people who says he'll ruin spacing--well, he won't, because he won't be hanging near the post; he'll be setting screens and rolling much more often than not. Spacing is about gravity--an elite rim-runner can create just as much space as an elite 3-point shooter because the D has to rotate / completely jam the paint to account for the fact that the dude scores at 70%+ if he gets the ball anywhere near the rim. That leaves others open. Getting the D out of position is actually more important than spacing, especially since the Bulls don't have guys that drive all game for their points, nor do they have playmakers that collapse the D and distribute. Zach's never been that, Lonzo neither and it's not how DD plays. Gobert's not a Ben Wallace-type. He just scored 16 per game on barely touching the ball.

People may remember why I really liked Lauri pre-fallout--he scored 18 per on 60%+ TS, 40 touches (4th option touches) and only a dozen shots. On a team with high volume touch guys like Zach, DD and Lonzo, you need players that can just hang around and still give you 15 on any given night. Gobert is that, but on steroids. Dude has a 73% TS and scores 16 on 34 touches, which is well into 5th option territory. I don't care how he gets his points, I'm not the style police--virtually all C's not named Joker or Embiid are assisted on most of their FGs. I'd rather have Gobert who'll score 15 on 8 shots than Vuc who'll score 18 on 16.

If your 5th option gives you 15 per game and is the best anchor on D in the entire league--he's worth every penny if your goal is to win basketball games.

[Clint Eastwood]

To me it's simple--if you can get all-NBA players for trash (or mediocrity) you do it. I don't care about Jerry's check book. Vuc at 25 is waaaaay worse in terms of dollars spent per impact on court than Gobert is at 45, or whatever he makes. He was good enough to drag one of the worst defensive squads in the league to a top 10 rating just by himself. Guys that you can actually design a scheme on D around, guys like Timmy, Garnett, etc. are actually harder to find than guys that can score a lot, or efficiently.

To the people who says he'll ruin spacing--well, he won't, because he won't be hanging near the post; he'll be setting screens and rolling much more often than not. Spacing is about gravity--an elite rim-runner can create just as much space as an elite 3-point shooter because the D has to rotate / completely jam the paint to account for the fact that the dude scores at 70%+ if he gets the ball anywhere near the rim. That leaves others open. Getting the D out of position is actually more important than spacing, especially since the Bulls don't have guys that drive all game for their points, nor do they have playmakers that collapse the D and distribute. Zach's never been that, Lonzo neither and it's not how DD plays. Gobert's not a Ben Wallace-type. He just scored 16 per game on barely touching the ball.

People may remember why I really liked Lauri pre-fallout--he scored 18 per on 60%+ TS, 40 touches (4th option touches) and only a dozen shots. On a team with high volume touch guys like Zach, DD and Lonzo, you need players that can just hang around and still give you 15 on any given night. Gobert is that, but on steroids. Dude has a 73% TS and scores 16 on 34 touches, which is well into 5th option territory. I don't care how he gets his points, I'm not the style police--virtually all C's not named Joker or Embiid are assisted on most of their FGs. I'd rather have Gobert who'll score 15 on 8 shots than Vuc who'll score 18 on 16.

If your 5th option gives you 15 per game and is the best anchor on D in the entire league--he's worth every penny if your goal is to win basketball games.

This post sums it up perfectly. I will add on that we really won’t have much way to significantly change this team in a year anyway after maxing Zach unless we trade derozan. If Gobert made 25 mil I think everyone would be more on board. That 15 extra million isnt going to be money we can put to particularly good use anyway given salary cap rules. Our team becomes unique with gobert lonzo and caruso defending. If we can keep pat, our defense is unique. I wouldnt mind seeing what Zach can do on offense with Gobert screening and rim running with him. Or the lonzo and caruso lobs to him. Or derozan screen at top. No one will get around it and if they switch, gobert will roll to rim and slam it down.

[kodo]

To the people who says he'll ruin spacing--well, he won't, because he won't be hanging near the post; he'll be setting screens and rolling much more often than not. Spacing is about gravity--an elite rim-runner can create just as much space as an elite 3-point shooter because the D has to rotate / completely jam the paint to account for the fact that the dude scores at 70%+ if he gets the ball anywhere near the rim. That leaves others open. Getting the D out of position is actually more important than spacing, especially since the Bulls don't have guys that drive all game for their points, nor do they have playmakers that collapse the D and distribute. Zach's never been that, Lonzo neither and it's not how DD plays. Gobert's not a Ben Wallace-type. He just scored 16 per game on barely touching the ball.

And to add to that, Vucevic creates Z E R O spacing for the guards:


Milwaukee regularly positioned 4 (!) defenders in the paint ignoring most of the Bulls team. The one guy who actually had a defender on him on the perimeter? Derozan, who is our least likely 3 point shooter.

On this same P&R, if Gobert is under the rim at the very least you take 1 defender away from the ball or the opposing team gives up an easy lob & 2 from Gobert.

But I think most posters do understand the problems with Vuc. I think the debate is whether it's better to just go cheap and have Mitch Robinson or someone similar do that job. My issue with that is then Vuc would still demand he starts and plays at least 32 mpg. You almost have to either trade Vuc or get a higher caliber player who Vuc would concede the starting job to, and that won't be Mitch or Whiteside.

This is Vuc's contract year, he's not going to be OK playing less minutes or taking a smaller role. $40-$80M are going to be stake for him.

[chitownsports4ever]

To the people who says he'll ruin spacing--well, he won't, because he won't be hanging near the post; he'll be setting screens and rolling much more often than not. Spacing is about gravity--an elite rim-runner can create just as much space as an elite 3-point shooter because the D has to rotate / completely jam the paint to account for the fact that the dude scores at 70%+ if he gets the ball anywhere near the rim. That leaves others open. Getting the D out of position is actually more important than spacing, especially since the Bulls don't have guys that drive all game for their points, nor do they have playmakers that collapse the D and distribute. Zach's never been that, Lonzo neither and it's not how DD plays. Gobert's not a Ben Wallace-type. He just scored 16 per game on barely touching the ball.

And to add to that, Vucevic creates Z E R O spacing for the guards:


Milwaukee regularly positioned 4 (!) defenders in the paint ignoring most of the Bulls team. The one guy who actually had a defender on him on the perimeter? Derozan, who is our least likely 3 point shooter.

On this same P&R, if Gobert is under the rim at the very least you take 1 defender away from the ball or the opposing team gives up an easy lob & 2 from Gobert.

But I think most posters do understand the problems with Vuc. I think the debate is whether it's better to just go cheap and have Mitch Robinson or someone similar do that job. My issue with that is then Vuc would still demand he starts and plays at least 32 mpg. You almost have to either trade Vuc or get a higher caliber player who Vuc would concede the starting job to, and that won't be Mitch or Whiteside.

This is Vuc's contract year, he's not going to be OK playing less minutes or taking a smaller role. $40-$80M are going to be stake for him.

If Gobert is in that same pick and roll he takes nothing away they basically had 3 7 fters on the floor and basically dared us to take threes Goberts does not change that and considering that he would still more than likely be the only big on the team nothing would change . Im not gonna get into the fact that the Bucks play a drop coverage so they NEVER come out and dare you take and make threes . Our leading scorer and shot taker barely takes any threes so we are already at a disadvantage against that no matter what as long and Demar is on the team adding Gobert simply magnifies those issues. But this clip is simply misleading

Your notion that to get Vooch to "concede" that you have to get high caliber player . Why would he or any other starter do it for anything less ? You gotta bring in a DPOTY or MVP caliber players for him to concede well of course why would we be trying to cut his minutes for anything less ?

[Red8911]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

If they decide to keep Vuc which I think is most likely for at least another year then it would be smart to extend him so they don’t lose him for nothing in FA if he decides to sign elsewhere next summer.

Plan should be to extend him, let him play next season and then decide next off season whether to keep or trade him. I just don’t think the Bulls will go for Gobert, they will probably run this core back.

[FriedRise]

Watch on YouTube

Aligns with what I've been saying about our team after Zo/Caruso went down, and also the last couple years when we'd keep blaming Wendell or Gafford or Theis or Vooch about our poor rim protection.

We can have Gobert as our center, but if our point of attack defense is trash (like Utah's was), it's not gonna matter. He by himself is not gonna be able to cover for everyone. You'd be better off with better point of attack defenders + a poorer defender at C like Vooch.

[dougthonus]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Of course at 20 million a year to extend our flexibility window while we continue to accumulate assets . I can get Whiteside to do what Gobert does for half of the MLE but without giving up any assets.

If you are spending 40 million on a center whose name is not Jokic ,Embiid or even Towns you are doing it wrong .

That's the problem, measurably, all these people you say you can get that do what Gobert does, don't really do what Gobert does. It's like saying who needs Ja Morant, when I could get Isaiah Thomas for the minimum right now?!

[DASMACKDOWN]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Of course at 20 million a year to extend our flexibility window while we continue to accumulate assets . I can get Whiteside to do what Gobert does for half of the MLE but without giving up any assets.

If you are spending 40 million on a center whose name is not Jokic ,Embiid or even Towns you are doing it wrong .

I dont think his next contract is 20 mil a year. Hes making 25 now.

We would at best get him like at an Al Horford deal of 4/109 which would be 27per

And regardless of how good Al has played in the playoffs, he wasnt close to what Vooch has been the past 4 years in the regular season when he signed his deal.

[dougthonus]

Honestly, I think the real question is, are you willing to extend Vooch?

That is the sort of missed part of this that no one talks about.

Of course at 20 million a year to extend our flexibility window while we continue to accumulate assets . I can get Whiteside to do what Gobert does for half of the MLE but without giving up any assets.

If you are spending 40 million on a center whose name is not Jokic ,Embiid or even Towns you are doing it wrong .

I dont think his next contract is 20 mil a year. Hes making 25 now.

We would at best get him like at an Al Horford deal of 4/109 which would be 27per

And regardless of how good Al has played in the playoffs, he wasnt close to what Vooch has been the past 4 years in the regular season when he signed his deal.

Vuc would need to become massively better next season to command 25M a year. He was so horrifically bad last year. All I can say is that people get anchored to their opinion on guys and are anchored to Vuc being good if they don't notice it.

Defensively:
Doesn't deter shots at the basket
Can't defend the perimeter

Offensively:
Low efficiency (bad for the offense)
High usage (combined with the above, drags the team down like an anchor)
Low creation (forces everyone else to do the work so he can drag the offense down like an anchor)

Good things:
Defensive rebounding
Screen setting
Passing

He's a highly skilled, versatile guy, but as a jack of all trades, master of none, he's not good enough at any of the important things to warrant a starting spot in the NBA the way he was used here last year. Perhaps getting him away from the three point line, feeding him in the post or giving him pick and rolls might be able to reconstitute him into areas he's strong at, or perhaps his shooting won't be amongst the worst in the NBA if you consider shot profile (open looks) vs efficiency vs volume, but if he came back next year with the same performance, he should be benched.

That said, a lot of that is coaching. Donovan kept hoping things would get better instead of changing his usage, limiting his touches, or doing any of the things you might do to lower the impact of his negative play and try to take advantage of things he still could do.

[MrSparkle]

I’m skeptical Vuc will bounce back with this personnel; namely Zach. That’s the problem. Lonzo is a great fit for him, as is Javonte for energy, but then he needs another good 3D guard and 3D PF.

If you keep Zach, Gobert is a logical piece to protect the rim and clean up the glass.

But I’m as concerned as the next person about overpaying. We’re not working with much after Pat, Coby and the 18th pick, and neither is even worth much.

Much rather swoop into the Ayton debacle. Ripe for pickins (and development).

[Jimako10]

I think if you could get Gobert without giving up PWill, you have to do it, even if it means giving up Ayo or Caruso. Having Gobert shore up all major weaknesses on defense while giving PWill a bigger role on offense (or at least a bigger role than just standing in the corner and shooting 3s), you have to take that chance.

Lonzo/Lavine/DDR/PWill/Gobert and one of Ayo/Caruso off the bench sounds interesting enough for me to take that chance.

[Chi town]

I’m skeptical Vuc will bounce back with this personnel; namely Zach. That’s the problem. Lonzo is a great fit for him, as is Javonte for energy, but then he needs another good 3D guard and 3D PF.

If you keep Zach, Gobert is a logical piece to protect the rim and clean up the glass.

But I’m as concerned as the next person about overpaying. We’re not working with much after Pat, Coby and the 18th pick, and neither is even worth much.

Much rather swoop into the Ayton debacle. Ripe for pickins (and development).

Ayton will cost more in a S&T IMO.

I think Gobert due to his contract isn't going to net much. Expirings or a 3 for one deal of lesser players ala Porzingis deal.