Tatum VS Luka

[3toheadmelo]

People overrate Luka for playing one style all season long when Tatum is proving in the Finals that he can play a superior version of that style while cutting down the turnovers, playing defense, and still allowing teammates the freedom to create as well. Luka playing championship level basketball will resemble what we are seeing from Tatum in the Finals.

[maxpower8888]

People overrate Luka for playing one style all season long when Tatum is proving in the Finals that he can play a superior version of that style while cutting down the turnovers, playing defense, and still allowing teammates the freedom to create as well. Luka playing championship level basketball will resemble what we are seeing from Tatum in the Finals.

Or maybe Tatum has a much better team that can take the pressure off of him.

You mean like a Mavs team that won playoff games without Luka?

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

[Archx]

People overrate Luka for playing one style all season long when Tatum is proving in the Finals that he can play a superior version of that style while cutting down the turnovers, playing defense, and still allowing teammates the freedom to create as well. Luka playing championship level basketball will resemble what we are seeing from Tatum in the Finals.

Or maybe Tatum has a much better team that can take the pressure off of him.

You mean like a Mavs team that won playoff games without Luka?

How did the Mavs win those 2 games?

Porzingis was sent packing to accommodate Luka

He was sent packing because he couldn't stay healthy. He even got injured during the bubble playoffs and didn't even start the last season, then got injured again during the season. When he got traded, even Wizards shut him down couple of times.

[MavfanAus]

The only guy agreeing with SelfishTake is a Melo fan Oh the irony

[ITYSL]

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

[nikster]

What? Look at the MVP list. Look at the basketball hall of fame.

Yeah, let's look at the MVP list. The list of pass first PGs includes Steve Nash, who's never won a championship, and then you'd have to go all the way back to before Tatum and Luka were born, to the 89-90 season when Magic won. Who eldr makes that list, Bob Cousy?

So what did you find in the basketball hall of fame? Also, controlling the pace and getting teammates involved doesn't mean pass first.

No star PG has lead their team to a title since Isiah Thomas. It's just not winning basketball

[SelfishPlayer]

Or maybe Tatum has a much better team that can take the pressure off of him.

You mean like a Mavs team that won playoff games without Luka?

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

I've seen the Mavs win playoff games without Luka. I've seen the Celtics begin the regular season losing quite a few games with Tatum. Luka Ball proponents blame the roster, I blame Luka ball.

[SelfishPlayer]

Yeah, let's look at the MVP list. The list of pass first PGs includes Steve Nash, who's never won a championship, and then you'd have to go all the way back to before Tatum and Luka were born, to the 89-90 season when Magic won. Who eldr makes that list, Bob Cousy?

So what did you find in the basketball hall of fame? Also, controlling the pace and getting teammates involved doesn't mean pass first.

No star PG has lead their team to a title since Isiah Thomas. It's just not winning basketball

Controlling pace and getting your teammates involved means being a star PG that leads your team?

[MavfanAus]

So what did you find in the basketball hall of fame? Also, controlling the pace and getting teammates involved doesn't mean pass first.

No star PG has lead their team to a title since Isiah Thomas. It's just not winning basketball

Controlling pace and getting your teammates involved means being a star PG that leads your team?

yeah but controlling the pace and getting your team mates involved was created by Steve Nash, just like James Harden created the step back jumper.

[3toheadmelo]

The only guy agreeing with SelfishTake is a Melo fan Oh the irony

You seem butthurt that your takes aren’t good

[SecondTake]

What Luka can do on offense far outweighs what Tatum brings defensively. Surround Luka with long defensive shooters and he's going to win a championship at some point.

That form of idealized Luka Ball is going to lose to the team with 5 defenders that share the ball like Tatum's team. Lebron is the only player in NBA history great enough to win championships while playing hero ball. See, Lebron's hero ball could easily be what we see in Dallas where NBA All Star players like Porzingis are blamed for Luka's failures, but Lebron turns these kinds of players like Kyrie, Love, and AD into champions. Porzingis would be a much more well regarded player if he played with Lebron his entire career.

Luka is playing at a level equal to prime LeBron. So if you agree LeBron could make it work, you believe Luka can too

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

[maxpower8888]

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

RAPM is just an advanced metric version of +/-. Luka was 4th this year among potential assists and I'm pretty sure he was 1st last season. Just wait for Brunson to get traded to see how much better Luka makes his teammates look.

Tatum has an All-Star, former All-Star and DPotY on his team. What does Luka have? His 2nd best player is THJ or Brunson. The difference between the Celtics roster and Mavs roster is huge.

[maxpower8888]

You mean like a Mavs team that won playoff games without Luka?

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

I've seen the Mavs win playoff games without Luka. I've seen the Celtics begin the regular season losing quite a few games with Tatum. Luka Ball proponents blame the roster, I blame Luka ball.

You can blame whatever you want, the Mavs exceeded expectations this season. They weren't supppsed to get to the WCF with the squad they have.

[PierceFan4ever]

Luka fans were literally pounding their chest before they were eliminated in 5 short games against the warriors talking about how much Luka has owned the Celtics (true), how the Mavs had just as good of a second half to the season as the Celtics (true), how they were saying the Mavs were better than the Celtics. Buuuuuuut

Once the Mavs got eliminated it turned to “oh it’s Luka doing everything for the mavericks, he has no help!” When the tone was completely different before the warriors series. Now it’s Tatum has way better teammates that’s why the Celtics are winning.

It’s the famous Aaron Rodgers logic against Tom Brady when Rodgers has #1 seed records, winning mvp’s, then once he choked in the playoffs and Brady kept winning titles the narrative shifts always to Rodgers not having good enough teammates while Brady has better ones even though Rodgers had superior offensive talent but his ass was just a choker in big moments against the greatest clutch player of all time.

Kobe once said you can’t win a championship playing harden ball. Luka plays a similar way with equally bad defense. Although I still would take Luka I just don’t like his high usage of the ball and his lazy effort defensively.

[ITYSL]

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

RAPM is just an advanced metric version of +/-. Luka was 4th this year among potential assists and I'm pretty sure he was 1st last season. Just wait for Brunson to get traded to see how much better Luka makes his teammates look.

Tatum has an All-Star, former All-Star and DPotY on his team. What does Luka have? His 2nd best player is THJ or Brunson. The difference between the Celtics roster and Mavs roster is huge.

Yeah, RAPM is a pretty well-respected advanced on-off impact stat. Tatum is better in that (both 1-year and 3-year RAPM) as well as raw on-off, so nothing of what you just wrote disputes what I said, which is that Tatum is arguably the higher impact player.

Tatum is also better in another advanced impact stat, an offshoot of PIPM called LEBRON.

If you're looking for an overall stat that combines boxscore, impact and player tracking, then 538's RAPTOR has Luka ahead in total RAPTOR and Tatum ahead in RAPTOR WAR.

I have zero issue with anyone choosing Luka over Tatum but it's not some landslide that some Luka fans are claiming.

[Bob8]

Luka fans were literally pounding their chest before they were eliminated in 5 short games against the warriors talking about how much Luka has owned the Celtics (true), how the Mavs had just as good of a second half to the season as the Celtics (true), how they were saying the Mavs were better than the Celtics. Buuuuuuut

Once the Mavs got eliminated it turned to “oh it’s Luka doing everything for the mavericks, he has no help!” When the tone was completely different before the warriors series. Now it’s Tatum has way better teammates that’s why the Celtics are winning.

It’s the famous Aaron Rodgers logic against Tom Brady when Rodgers has #1 seed records, winning mvp’s, then once he choked in the playoffs and Brady kept winning titles the narrative shifts always to Rodgers not having good enough teammates while Brady has better ones even though Rodgers had superior offensive talent but his ass was just a choker in big moments against the greatest clutch player of all time.

Kobe once said you can’t win a championship playing harden ball. Luka plays a similar way with equally bad defense. Although I still would take Luka I just don’t like his high usage of the ball and his lazy effort defensively.

Can you honestly say that Tatum is playing well in Finals?

Can you honestly say that Tatum is the best Celtics' player in this series?

How do you think Celtics' and Tatum's D would have looked, if they played with Brunson, Powell and Bullock instead of DPOY, Brown and Williams?

[Archx]

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

My friend, you need to actually go and compare their "impact" stats before you make statement like this. Tatum doesn't even have better On/Off number than Luka for the playoffs. I won't even go further into details because Tatum would look even worse compared to him.
Even their defensive impact metrics are close lol...

[Bob8]

Was this supposed to be some sort of argument that the Mavs team is as good as the Celtics? Because unless you will state that that you believe the Mavs roster is as good as the Celtics roster without Luka and Tatum reapectively, then this was a pointless take.

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

My friend, you need to actually go and compare their " impact" stats before you make statement like this. Tatum doesn't even have better On/Off number than Luka for the playoffs. I won't even go further into details because Tatum would look even worse compared to him.
Even their defensive impact metrics are close lol...

If you didn't notice, no one wants to compare playoffs stats, for obvious reasons, they all want to compare RS stats and then immediately saying, how only titles matter.

[Archx]

There's a legit argument that Tatum raises the level of his team more than Luka does his. He has better impact stats, from basic ones like on/off to advanced metrics like RAPM

My friend, you need to actually go and compare their " impact" stats before you make statement like this. Tatum doesn't even have better On/Off number than Luka for the playoffs. I won't even go further into details because Tatum would look even worse compared to him.
Even their defensive impact metrics are close lol...

If you didn't notice, no one wants to compare playoffs stats, for obvious reasons, they all want to compare RS stats and then immediately saying, how only titles matter.

Also, one of the dumbest things we hear, Mavs are better when Luka doesn't play or that he is bad for the team.... They are literally -2.6 when Doncic sits and positive when he plays.

Boston on the other hand are still +4.2 when Tatum sits.

And these are not small sample examples, these numbers are for entire playoffs so far. It's sad that some people still can't comprehend how big of a talent difference is there between Mavs and Celtics.

[PierceFan4ever]

Luka fans were literally pounding their chest before they were eliminated in 5 short games against the warriors talking about how much Luka has owned the Celtics (true), how the Mavs had just as good of a second half to the season as the Celtics (true), how they were saying the Mavs were better than the Celtics. Buuuuuuut

Once the Mavs got eliminated it turned to “oh it’s Luka doing everything for the mavericks, he has no help!” When the tone was completely different before the warriors series. Now it’s Tatum has way better teammates that’s why the Celtics are winning.

It’s the famous Aaron Rodgers logic against Tom Brady when Rodgers has #1 seed records, winning mvp’s, then once he choked in the playoffs and Brady kept winning titles the narrative shifts always to Rodgers not having good enough teammates while Brady has better ones even though Rodgers had superior offensive talent but his ass was just a choker in big moments against the greatest clutch player of all time.

Kobe once said you can’t win a championship playing harden ball. Luka plays a similar way with equally bad defense. Although I still would take Luka I just don’t like his high usage of the ball and his lazy effort defensively.

Can you honestly say that Tatum is playing well in this series?

Can you honestly say that Tatum is the best Celtics in this series?

How do you think Celtics' and Tatum's D would have looked, if they played with Brunson, Powell and Bullock instead of DPOY, Brown and Williams?

He hasn’t shot the ball well especially in game 1 but he made it up with having 13 assists to 2 turnovers and playing elite defense. He also didn’t force any bad shots that game, he missed a lot of great looks. In game 2, he was the only Celtics player to show up and he was not responsible that was the meltdown coming from Horford, smart, Robert Williams who each had 2 points that game and brown himself scoring 2 points outside the first 6 minutes of the game. In game 3, he was the best player for the Celtics outside the first quarter when brown was electric. Tatum scored or assisted 24 of the Celtics 28 after the warriors took the lead in which Tatum brought them back to a double digit lead. So overall, he’s been good not great like at a superstar level which I don’t mind because the only negative is him missing shots and that’s with taking good shots. The shots he’s missed a lot of have been open threes and a lot of layups.

He’s been 1b to Brown’s 1a. Tatum has all the focal point on offense from the warriors defense. They have Wiggins on Tatum and then they either have Steph or looney waiting to help out once Tatum puts the ball on the floor. It’s a reason why Tatum’s passing has been effective this series because the warriors are so worried about him.

The mavericks have one of the best defense in the league in spite of Luka being terrible at that end I don’t know why Luka stans try selling all of his teammates short to prop up Luka. If Tatum had those players on his team, one thing for certain would be that his defense would still be elite because he’s an elite one on one defender not someone who was getting torched at times by Jordan Poole and Klay like Luka was last series.