Tatum VS Luka

[tsherkin]

Luka never going to be considered an all time great if he continues to be blah in reg season.

Is he, though?

He just posted a 28/9/9, ranking third in the league in PPG. He put down his third straight season with 10+ triple doubles. Third straight season of +6 OBPM or better. Yeah, he has a lot of room to improve, and it'll probably happen by slightly reducing his volume, improving his efficiency in a few different ways and seeing where things go from there. But let's not act like he's actually been "bleh" in the regular season. What he's doing at that usage is rather impressive.

And of course, he's suffering from the era in which he's playing as well. I had a conversation similar to this from the other side earlier, but his objective TS% is actually pretty impressive if you frame it from a context 5 years prior. League average scoring efficiency has risen enough that 57%+ is now basically league average (56.6%). So he's actually playing at a level which would be very impressive in basically any other era, which does need to be considered. And even at that league-average efficiency, his playmaking increases his overall offensive value. He's playing at 01 Iverson levels at the moment, based on the league environment and his level of efficiency.

So as many have noted, he needs to tighten up his 3pt shot selection and improve his FT shooting. Ideally, he'd generate some more attempts at the rim, too. Because high-usage performance at league-average is not ideal for team offensive ceiling. So yes, there are limitations to his performance relative to the true ATGs and we need to see him take another leap before he can really be in that category.

But there's a difference between "not upper-most tier yet" vs. "he's bleh in the regular season."

[Archx]

I wasn't comparing their playoff on/off stats this season and never said I was. On/off is much too noisy to be comparing it in such a small sample size. It's honestly borderline to compare it for an entire season, which is why I cited RAPM and, even better, 3-year RAPM.

However, if you want to compare playoffs, then Tatum has a 57.4% TS these playoffs vs. Luka's 57.1%. That's not the impression you'd get from Luka fans reading through this thread

I said it before and I'll say it again: I have no issue with anyone picking Luka over Tatum, but to say it isn't close is what's silly.

Fair enough, i thought we were talking about playoffs. I couldn't care less about regular season to be honest.


Close TS% will hardly tell you who's a better player/scorer between those two. You'd have to look at other things aswell.

Luka never going to be considered an all time great if he continues to be blah in reg season.

His playoff numbers are going to steadily decline like they did this year if he wants to win.

Then what do you have as an argument for a all time great? 6th in league in scoring 107th in efficiency and 120 in defense?

Regular season matters man

Top5 in MVP voting, over 50 wins season, 3rd straight ALL-NBA 1st team.... "Blah" season or seasons?

He had higher DWS as Giannis, higher DBPM as Tatum, was 1st or 2nd among guards in DRTG, 4th best BPM, 4th best VORP. Sure he should improve on his FT's... But his regular season's were quite ok, so far. Specially if you take into account that almost each year he had a slow start as people call it.

[SelfishPlayer]

Jaylen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis had the same VORP number this season. Amazing how Brown is working out with Tatum but Porzingis got ran out of town to accommodate Luka.

[nikster]

Jaylen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis had the same VORP number this season. Amazing how Brown is working out with Tatum but Porzingis got ran out of town to accommodate Luka.

you think VORP is a good way of measuring impact?the Same stat that show Luka and Tatum have a similar impact this year (with a slight edge to Luka)

Why do you think KP was dealt because of on court fit instead of the obvious injury problems?

[Bob8]

The bolded is a solid way to start your post for no reason lol

The victim of a gentleman's sweep lost by an average of 13.25 pts (no less than 9 in any game) and that's suppose to help their case?

Yeah you should have checked the boxscores. Or the games i pointed out. Instead you come with one of the stupiest arguments ever, the average...

So with your argument a team getting swept with a 35p, 5p, 4p and 4p loss had no chance or was not even "one better player" away because they lost by an average of 12 points per game, huh

I also specifically mentioned the two losses (by 9 and 10 points) with Looney having monster games while the Mavs FC sucked. And yes, give the Mavs Williams in these games and Looneys impact shrinks for more than 9 and 10 points. And then you are allready looking at a 3:2 for the Mavs. And then there was another big Looney game that the Mavs lost at the rebounding battle.

And then you see now the Looney/Williams matchup with two games where they both neutralized each other and the 3rd with Williams outplaying Looney.

So yes, the Mavs were one Robert Williams away to beat the Warriors.

No they absolutely weren't. That is a ridiculous conclusion to reach. By that logic pretty much every team that lost a playoff series was a Robert Williams level player away from winning...

I know someone who made much more ridiculous conclusion, Delon Wright being the most impactful Mavs' player.

[DroseReturnChi]

Jaylen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis had the same VORP number this season. Amazing how Brown is working out with Tatum but Porzingis got ran out of town to accommodate Luka.

pretty crazy stat where brown and kp are same level players. they were yrs ago.

[ArksNetsSince99]

Luka easily, and if Luka was an American born he would’ve won this 90-10 percent

Tatum is 4 th best player on Celtics squad this playoffs

[GeorgeMarcus]

Yeah you should have checked the boxscores. Or the games i pointed out. Instead you come with one of the stupiest arguments ever, the average...

So with your argument a team getting swept with a 35p, 5p, 4p and 4p loss had no chance or was not even "one better player" away because they lost by an average of 12 points per game, huh

I also specifically mentioned the two losses (by 9 and 10 points) with Looney having monster games while the Mavs FC sucked. And yes, give the Mavs Williams in these games and Looneys impact shrinks for more than 9 and 10 points. And then you are allready looking at a 3:2 for the Mavs. And then there was another big Looney game that the Mavs lost at the rebounding battle.

And then you see now the Looney/Williams matchup with two games where they both neutralized each other and the 3rd with Williams outplaying Looney.

So yes, the Mavs were one Robert Williams away to beat the Warriors.

No they absolutely weren't. That is a ridiculous conclusion to reach. By that logic pretty much every team that lost a playoff series was a Robert Williams level player away from winning...

Dude, seriously?

Talking about logic... This Mavs team has ONE giant flaw and that is size and rebounding in the frontcourt. This flaw alone cost them game 2 and game 5 at least, killed by Looney.

Williams fixes this issue. So yes, the MAVS with their specific flaw were a Robert Williams away from winning. Because he fixes the issue. Of course other teams without this FC issues arent a Williams away.

Dat logic, huh

FFS Robert Williams isn't THAT good and Dwight Powell isn't even that bad. The deficit was far too large to be talking about one role player changing the outcome

[sam_I_am]

The Celtics do not have a dominant roster on paper. Nobody picked them as a top 4 team in the East preseason. They were a sub-0.500 team until Tatum took the next step in his development by breaking double and triple teams with the pass. Luka came into the league with that ability so it’s really a matter of Dallas putting the right players around him. Dallas already has 3 really good starters next to Luka in Brunson, Dimwiddie and Finney. If Luka is better than Tatum, it should be pretty easy for them to make the necessary upgrades this off season.

[Bob8]

The Celtics do not have a dominant roster on paper. Nobody picked them as a top 4 team in the East preseason. They were a sub-0.500 team until Tatum took the next step in his development by breaking double and triple teams with the pass. Luka came into the league with that ability so it’s really a matter of Dallas putting the right players around him. Dallas already has 3 really good starters next to Luka in Brunson, Dimwiddie and Finney. If Luka is better than Tatum, it should be pretty easy for them to make the necessary upgrades this off season.

It's difficult to start Luka, Brunson and Dinwiddie together. Dinwiddie is coming from the bench.

[Bob8]

No they absolutely weren't. That is a ridiculous conclusion to reach. By that logic pretty much every team that lost a playoff series was a Robert Williams level player away from winning...

Dude, seriously?

Talking about logic... This Mavs team has ONE giant flaw and that is size and rebounding in the frontcourt. This flaw alone cost them game 2 and game 5 at least, killed by Looney.

Williams fixes this issue. So yes, the MAVS with their specific flaw were a Robert Williams away from winning. Because he fixes the issue. Of course other teams without this FC issues arent a Williams away.

Dat logic, huh

FFS Robert Williams isn't THAT good and Dwight Powell isn't even that bad. The deficit was far too large to be talking about one role player changing the outcome

Powell avg. 2.2/2.6 and 0.3 blk in playoffs. Mavs biggest problem in WCF were rebounds, especially Warriors' offensive rebounds, second chance points and rim protection. Looney dominating them.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Dude, seriously?

Talking about logic... This Mavs team has ONE giant flaw and that is size and rebounding in the frontcourt. This flaw alone cost them game 2 and game 5 at least, killed by Looney.

Williams fixes this issue. So yes, the MAVS with their specific flaw were a Robert Williams away from winning. Because he fixes the issue. Of course other teams without this FC issues arent a Williams away.

Dat logic, huh

FFS Robert Williams isn't THAT good and Dwight Powell isn't even that bad. The deficit was far too large to be talking about one role player changing the outcome

Powell avg. 2.2/2.6 and 0.3 blk in playoffs. Mavs biggest problem in WCF were rebounds, especially Warriors' offensive rebounds, second chance points and rim protection. Looney dominating them.

I watched the series like everybody else. They should of course look to upgrade Powell but he played in a role that severely limited his counting stats. Ironically similar to Looney for most of his career. It would take more than a Powell for Timelord swap to beat the Warriors

[Swish1906]

No they absolutely weren't. That is a ridiculous conclusion to reach. By that logic pretty much every team that lost a playoff series was a Robert Williams level player away from winning...

Dude, seriously?

Talking about logic... This Mavs team has ONE giant flaw and that is size and rebounding in the frontcourt. This flaw alone cost them game 2 and game 5 at least, killed by Looney.

Williams fixes this issue. So yes, the MAVS with their specific flaw were a Robert Williams away from winning. Because he fixes the issue. Of course other teams without this FC issues arent a Williams away.

Dat logic, huh

FFS Robert Williams isn't THAT good and Dwight Powell isn't even that bad. The deficit was far too large to be talking about one role player changing the outcome

FFS i pointed out the specific games which the Mavs lost by "just" nine or ten points while getting absolutely destroyed inside. Destroyed for way more than just 10 points. Looneys stats, even Powell and Klebers combined stats, the huge rebounding difference, specially at the offensive end etc

Its really not that hard to understand. But since you are unwilling to do this, it looks like a waste of time

[TheGOATRises007]

The Celtics do not have a dominant roster on paper. Nobody picked them as a top 4 team in the East preseason. They were a sub-0.500 team until Tatum took the next step in his development by breaking double and triple teams with the pass. Luka came into the league with that ability so it’s really a matter of Dallas putting the right players around him. Dallas already has 3 really good starters next to Luka in Brunson, Dimwiddie and Finney. If Luka is better than Tatum, it should be pretty easy for them to make the necessary upgrades this off season.

Heavily disagree.

The Celtics have a great roster on paper.

Loaded with 2-way players. Great isolation scorers. Great rim protection. They can go small or big.

They are fairly loaded.

[Bob8]

FFS Robert Williams isn't THAT good and Dwight Powell isn't even that bad. The deficit was far too large to be talking about one role player changing the outcome

Powell avg. 2.2/2.6 and 0.3 blk in playoffs. Mavs biggest problem in WCF were rebounds, especially Warriors' offensive rebounds, second chance points and rim protection. Looney dominating them.

I watched the series like everybody else. They should of course look to upgrade Powell but he played in a role that severely limited his counting stats. Ironically similar to Looney for most of his career. It would take more than a Powell for Timelord swap to beat the Warriors

If you have watched series, you know that his replacement was Kleber, who theoretically could have worked at least in offense, but unfortunately he couldn't hit anything from outside in this series, the 3rd option was Bertans, who couldn't worked on 5 even just theoretically. So yes Timelord would have been huge, because Mavs didn't get anything from 5 in WCF.

When we're talking about series, just 1 or 2 games can change everything, Mavs winning game 2 or 3 could have meant different series. Not necessarily, but their chances would have been much better with rim protector.

[SelfishPlayer]

The Celtics do not have a dominant roster on paper. Nobody picked them as a top 4 team in the East preseason. They were a sub-0.500 team until Tatum took the next step in his development by breaking double and triple teams with the pass. Luka came into the league with that ability so it’s really a matter of Dallas putting the right players around him. Dallas already has 3 really good starters next to Luka in Brunson, Dimwiddie and Finney. If Luka is better than Tatum, it should be pretty easy for them to make the necessary upgrades this off season.

Marcus Smart...

Watch on YouTube

[ITYSL]

Luka fans absolutely obsessed with **** on the rest of the roster. Sad.

[Bob8]

Luka fans absolutely obsessed with **** on the rest of the roster. Sad.

Would you liked 2/3, 0.3 blocks starting C in your team?

[SelfishPlayer]

Can Luka fans go on record as to what kind of 5 he should be playing with? Is it a non floor spacing defensive specialist lob threat or a floor spacing three point shooter? It seems as if simply because Tatum is in the Finals with Robert Williams, Luka fans want that sort of center. I believe if the Mavs actually had that guy, Luka fans would complain that he can't shoot. If Tatum only had shooters at the 5, and made the Finals that way while Luka didn't make the Finals with a defensive oriented center, Luka fans would probably be saying "if only Luka had the floor spacing 5 Tatum has..."

[Bob8]

Can Luka fans go on record as to what kind of 5 he should be playing with? Is it a non floor spacing defensive specialist lob threat or a floor spacing three point shooter? It seems as if simply because Tatum is in the Finals with Robert Williams, Luka fans want that sort of center. I believe if the Mavs actually had that guy, Luka fans would complain that he can't shoot. If Tatum only had shooters at the 5, and made the Finals that way while Luka didn't make the Finals with a defensive oriented center, Luka fans would probably be saying "if only Luka had the floor spacing 5 Tatum has..."

Anyone but 2/3, 0.3 blocks.

I would take Ayton, if I could choose.