2007 Duncan vs 2008 Kobe

[Matt15]

Who was the better player?

[70sFan]

It's relatively close, but Duncan for me and I'm confident with that choice.

[ardee]

The opposite of 70s: I agree it's close, but Kobe for me and I am also confident with that.

Duncan led the Spurs to an 8.35 SRS in 2007 with a well established team that had played together for a long time his no. 2 (Manu) and 3 (Parker) playing 75 and 77 games. This was also close to peak Manu.

Impressive result, but not as impressive as Kobe leading the Lakers to a 7.35 SRS in a stronger conference with only 27 games of Pau and 35 games of Bynum. That was really a makeshift patchwork team for large stretches of the season. With Pau playing, we are a 10+ SRS team, still with a worse team on paper than the 2007 Spurs. This was simply because of the ridiculous level Kobe was playing at: he wasn't any worse than 2006 or second half 2007: just didn't shoot as much.

Kobe's Playoffs were also more impressive. He played at a peak Jordan level through the WC Playoffs, eviscerating Duncan's own team from the very next year we're discussing here. Yeah, he wasn't great against the historic Celtics defense, but Duncan's own efficiency cratered in the Finals against a rudimentary Cavs team.

Duncan brings defense obviously but Kobe's offense from 06-08 was elite enough for me to place his total impact over any Duncan year outside of 2002 and 2003.

[AdagioPace]

The opposite of 70s: I agree it's close, but Kobe for me and I am also confident with that.

Duncan led the Spurs to an 8.35 SRS in 2007 with a well established team that had played together for a long time his no. 2 (Manu) and 3 (Parker) playing 75 and 77 games. This was also close to peak Manu.

Impressive result, but not as impressive as Kobe leading the Lakers to a 7.35 SRS in a stronger conference with only 27 games of Pau and 35 games of Bynum. That was really a makeshift patchwork team for large stretches of the season. With Pau playing, we are a 10+ SRS team, still with a worse team on paper than the 2007 Spurs. This was simply because of the ridiculous level Kobe was playing at: he wasn't any worse than 2006 or second half 2007: just didn't shoot as much.

Kobe's Playoffs were also more impressive. He played at a peak Jordan level through the WC Playoffs, eviscerating Duncan's own team from the very next year we're discussing here. Yeah, he wasn't great against the historic Celtics defense, but Duncan's own efficiency cratered in the Finals against a rudimentary Cavs team.

Duncan brings defense obviously but Kobe's offense from 06-08 was elite enough for me to place his total impact over any Duncan year outside of 2002 and 2003.

ardee, allow me but I think the bolded is entirely speculative. Bringing a team from 7 SRS to 10 SRS is something only superstars could do, certainly not Pau and Bynum.
Also, the distorted perception people have about 2007 TD is that he looks slower, without offensive primacy anymore (last true prime season?)... but he might have been as good as ever impact wise.

[LAL1947]

Kobe was a better player than Duncan for every single year from 2005-06 onward until his body broke down (2012-13?).

Duncan was not even a Top 3 player in 2006-07. Kobe, Dirk, Lebron were better than him... and KG, Nash, Wade might have been better than Duncan too. These darn Timmy-lovin' myths about being him best in 2006-07 need to stop, as they are simply revisionist history. He should have been dumped out of the playoffs by the Suns in 2006-07, and only won that title because the Spurs robbed the Suns by taking out Steve Nash and then having Amar'e + Boris Diaw unjustly suspended for a pivotal Game 5. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that this series was fixed. Tim Donaghy was caught fixing games right before this too. Anyway, this stolen title is the only reason Duncan is being considered as one of the best players for that year, when he most definitely was not.

Also, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were crazy good. People really need to stop giving all the credit that those two guys deserve to Tim Duncan... and need to share it rightfully among the three of them. I would have given my left nut to have a PG like Tony Parker playing next to Kobe, taking some of the burden to create/score off him.

[70sFan]

The opposite of 70s: I agree it's close, but Kobe for me and I am also confident with that.

I'm always glad to see you disagreeing with me

Duncan led the Spurs to an 8.35 SRS in 2007 with a well established team that had played together for a long time his no. 2 (Manu) and 3 (Parker) playing 75 and 77 games. This was also close to peak Manu.

Impressive result, but not as impressive as Kobe leading the Lakers to a 7.35 SRS in a stronger conference with only 27 games of Pau and 35 games of Bynum. That was really a makeshift patchwork team for large stretches of the season. With Pau playing, we are a 10+ SRS team, still with a worse team on paper than the 2007 Spurs. This was simply because of the ridiculous level Kobe was playing at: he wasn't any worse than 2006 or second half 2007: just didn't shoot as much.

1. How did you conclude that West was stronger in 2008 than 2007? Do you have any evidences for that?
2. Spurs being better than Lakers with Pau on paper is your opinion, the one I'm not sure I'd agree with.

Kobe's Playoffs were also more impressive. He played at a peak Jordan level through the WC Playoffs, eviscerating Duncan's own team from the very next year we're discussing here. Yeah, he wasn't great against the historic Celtics defense, but Duncan's own efficiency cratered in the Finals against a rudimentary Cavs team.

It's also quite controversial to me. They faced two same teams in the West (with Denver being notably better) and both looked quite impressive in those series. I'd say that the way Duncan's defense sustained Nash-led offense in WCF is as impressive as Kobe's job on Spurs in 2008 WCF.

I think these two runs are on similar level and I'd say that Duncan played comfortably better in the finals (against far worse team of course). You can say that Duncan's efficiency cratered but the truth is that it was only 4 games series and Duncan struggled in only two of them and his main strength - defense - was as good as ever in these two games in Cleveland. Duncan struggling scoring-wise isn't the same as Kobe struggling, because Duncan still brings elite defense and rebounding, to a degree struggling Kobe can't match.

Duncan brings defense obviously but Kobe's offense from 06-08 was elite enough for me to place his total impact over any Duncan year outside of 2002 and 2003.

I find it always hard to back up the popular idea that Duncan had these two massive outlier seasons and the rest of his prime wasn't that impressive. He scored more in these years, but scoring was never Duncan's main strength. If you look at scoring, you shouldn't put any version of Duncan over Kobe in the first place.

[70sFan]

These darn Timmy-lovin' myths about being him best in 2006-07 need to stop, as they are simply revisionist history.

It's really not, you can watch 2007 finals games and hear broadcasters talking about Duncan being the best player in the league for years. He was seen as one of the best and he has a lot of arguments for being the best for various reasons.

He should have been dumped out of the playoffs by the Suns in 2006-07, and only won that title because the Spurs robbed the Suns by taking out Steve Nash and then having Amar'e + Boris Diaw unjustly suspended for a pivotal Game 5.

Suns still lost game 6, so it's pointless.

Anyway, this stolen title is the only reason Duncan is being considered as a Top 3 player for that year, when he most definitely was not then.

I told you like 5 times that this is not true and I provided a lot of evidences of Duncan's impact in that season, but you keep ignoring them. Why are you there if you don't want to discuss?

Also, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were crazy good.

Yeah, but poor Gasol sucked... We've heard this story before.

People really need to stop giving all the credit that those two guys deserve to Tim Duncan... and need to share it rightfully among the three of them.

Nobody does it, so stop it.

Even in 2002-03, I would have given my left nut to have a PG like Tony Parker playing next to Kobe, taking some of the burden to create/score off him.

It would be amazing for Kobe in 2002/03 to have 15 ppg on 47 TS% from Parker, instead of having prime Shaq on his side. Duncan was so lucky!

[TheGOATRises007]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007. I am pretty sure his impact numbers were down across the board from the prior season and I don't think he was that great in the playoffs compared to the perception it's now garnered.

Dirk was arguably better in the RS, but his poor series vs the Warriors can't be overlooked, so he's out of the running.

I don't see an argument for Kobe over Duncan in 2007. Kobe's impact numbers were also down across from the prior season. I think Duncan was slightly better than Kobe vs the Suns in the playoffs.

As for the question: I'd go Kobe, because I think 2008 Kobe was clearly better in the playoffs for me even with his poor finals showing relatively.

[LAL1947]

These darn Timmy-lovin' myths about being him best in 2006-07 need to stop, as they are simply revisionist history.

It's really not, you can watch 2007 finals games and hear broadcasters talking about Duncan being the best player in the league for years. He was seen as one of the best and he has a lot of arguments for being the best for various reasons.

He should have been dumped out of the playoffs by the Suns in 2006-07, and only won that title because the Spurs robbed the Suns by taking out Steve Nash and then having Amar'e + Boris Diaw unjustly suspended for a pivotal Game 5.

Suns still lost game 6, so it's pointless.

Anyway, this stolen title is the only reason Duncan is being considered as a Top 3 player for that year, when he most definitely was not then.

I told you like 5 times that this is not true and I provided a lot of evidences of Duncan's impact in that season, but you keep ignoring them. Why are you there if you don't want to discuss?

Also, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili were crazy good.

Yeah, but poor Gasol sucked... We've heard this story before.

People really need to stop giving all the credit that those two guys deserve to Tim Duncan... and need to share it rightfully among the three of them.

Nobody does it, so stop it.

Even in 2002-03, I would have given my left nut to have a PG like Tony Parker playing next to Kobe, taking some of the burden to create/score off him.

It would be amazing for Kobe in 2002/03 to have 15 ppg on 47 TS% from Parker, instead of having prime Shaq on his side. Duncan was so lucky!

Duncan was not a Top 3 player in 2006-07 and definitely was not a better player than Kobe that year. You are unable to make unbiased posts when it comes to Tim Duncan. And it is quite clear that it is you who don't want to discuss... because we've had this same discussion in what feels like 50 threads now. Yet not once have you admitted that the Spurs robbed the Suns of that title and that Duncan should have been dumped out in the 2nd round of the 2006-07 playoffs. It seems to me that your only intention here is to do "damage control" of how you want people to view Duncan retrospectively through cherry-picked stats, rather than to paint an accurate picture of NBA history.

Since we cannot seem to find an agreement and you keep accusing me of bad intentions, then stop quoting me and move along after posting your opinion on what is asked in the OP.

[LAL1947]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007.

Watch on YouTube

[ardee]

The opposite of 70s: I agree it's close, but Kobe for me and I am also confident with that.

Duncan led the Spurs to an 8.35 SRS in 2007 with a well established team that had played together for a long time his no. 2 (Manu) and 3 (Parker) playing 75 and 77 games. This was also close to peak Manu.

Impressive result, but not as impressive as Kobe leading the Lakers to a 7.35 SRS in a stronger conference with only 27 games of Pau and 35 games of Bynum. That was really a makeshift patchwork team for large stretches of the season. With Pau playing, we are a 10+ SRS team, still with a worse team on paper than the 2007 Spurs. This was simply because of the ridiculous level Kobe was playing at: he wasn't any worse than 2006 or second half 2007: just didn't shoot as much.

Kobe's Playoffs were also more impressive. He played at a peak Jordan level through the WC Playoffs, eviscerating Duncan's own team from the very next year we're discussing here. Yeah, he wasn't great against the historic Celtics defense, but Duncan's own efficiency cratered in the Finals against a rudimentary Cavs team.

Duncan brings defense obviously but Kobe's offense from 06-08 was elite enough for me to place his total impact over any Duncan year outside of 2002 and 2003.

ardee, allow me but I think the bolded is entirely speculative. Bringing a team from 7 SRS to 10 SRS is something only superstars could do, certainly not Pau and Bynum.
Also, the distorted perception people have about 2007 TD is that he looks slower, without offensive primacy anymore (last true prime season?)... but he might have been as good as ever impact wise.

I mean, it's not speculative. They were a 10 SRS team in the 27 games that Pau played. 22-5 record. Now it's likely that doesn't hold up over a whole 82 game season, but even then it's still indicative of the kinds of results peak Kobe can get you when you put decent talent around him.

[TheGOATRises007]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007.

Watch on YouTube

Tatum dunked on LeBron in 2018.

He must be better too then.

Get serious.

[ardee]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007. I am pretty sure his impact numbers were down across the board from the prior season and I don't think he was that great in the playoffs compared to the perception it's now garnered.

Dirk was arguably better in the RS, but his poor series vs the Warriors can't be overlooked, so he's out of the running.

You're right, in 2007 LeBron took a step back for some reason vs 2006.

For 2007 I see a clear top 3 of Kobe, Duncan and Nash, with LeBron and Dirk at 4/5.

[LAL1947]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007.

Watch on YouTube

Tatum dunked on LeBron in 2018.

He must be better too then.

Get serious.

Why would you think I'm posting that video just for the dunk?

Did you watch the whole clip? I posted it so you can see the scoreline when Lebron lead the Cavs to an away win against Duncan's Spurs in 2006-07, even though Duncan was backed up Parker + Ginobili + Bowen + Finley. Also, don't forget that it was Tony Parker who was FMVP against the Cavs in 2006-07 Finals.

The dunk was just an added bonus.

[Gooner]

Kobe outplayed Duncan in 2008 in a direct matchup, so there you go.

[HeartBreakKid]

Kobe outplayed Duncan in 2008 in a direct matchup, so there you go.

I mean Tim Duncan wasn't as good that year....so there you go

[Homer38]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007.

Watch on YouTube

This is just a awful argument

[Gooner]

Kobe outplayed Duncan in 2008 in a direct matchup, so there you go.

I mean Tim Duncan wasn't as good that year....so there you go

So you are basically saying that Duncan declined significantly in one year. I'm not buying that.

[LAL1947]

LeBron was not better than Duncan in 2007.

Watch on YouTube

This is just a awful argument

This PC board is trying to put Duncan over Kobe and Lebron, who were better players than him in 2007... by using cherry-picked impact stats from when Duncan was in a perfect situation having Tony Parker as his PG to create offense + score and Manu Ginobili as his SG to score + create offense, and while both weren't defensive liabilities... instead of looking at actual ability to play basketball and lead a team to wins... and I'm the one making awful arguments?

Anyway, as already pointed out above... I posted that video so you can see the scoreline when Lebron lead the Cavs to an away win against Duncan's Spurs in 2006-07, even though Duncan was backed up Parker + Ginobili + Bowen + Finley. Also, don't forget that it was Tony Parker who was FMVP against the Cavs in 2006-07 Finals.

[Homer38]

Watch on YouTube

This is just a awful argument

Wait, wot? This PC board is trying to put Duncan over Kobe and Lebron, who were better players than him in 2007... by using cherry-picked stats from when Duncan was in a perfect situation having Tony Parker as his PG to create offense + score and Manu Ginobili as his SG to score + create offense, and while both weren't defensive liabilities... instead of looking at actual ability to play basketball and lead a team to wins... and I'm the one making awful arguments?

I voted for 2008 Kobe but you can have much better argument that this

Btw,LeBron did not make the first all-nba team in 2007 over Duncan