2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[yoyoboy]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I’m not sure this is true. Is Curry at his best really better than prime LeBron on a night where his jump shot is falling and where he’s giving full effort on defense? That two-way impact is hard to beat.

I’d say if anything Steph might not have the ceiling in terms of impact that some other players in history have, but on a game-to-game basis his value is more consistent because so much of it draws from his gravity and the way teams play him, which is there even on nights when his shot isn’t falling.

[jalengreen]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

[Doctor MJ]

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I’m not sure this is true. Is Curry at his best really better than prime LeBron on a night where his jump shot is falling and where he’s giving full effort on defense? That two-way impact is hard to beat.

I’d say if anything Steph might not have the ceiling in terms of impact that some other players in history have, but on a game-to-game basis his value is more consistent because so much of it draws from his gravity and the way teams play him, which is there even on nights when his shot isn’t falling.

3>2 though. That's the reason I always said that top-Kobe > top-Jordan despite Jordan being on the better player on an average day by a good margin.

I'm not sure if I think it's a given that Curry on his best day is better than all others on their best day, but certainly Curry at his best gives you a certain capacity for rapidly changing where the game seemed to have been that no one else can match.

[Peregrine01]

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I’m not sure this is true. Is Curry at his best really better than prime LeBron on a night where his jump shot is falling and where he’s giving full effort on defense? That two-way impact is hard to beat.

I’d say if anything Steph might not have the ceiling in terms of impact that some other players in history have, but on a game-to-game basis his value is more consistent because so much of it draws from his gravity and the way teams play him, which is there even on nights when his shot isn’t falling.

To me, Curry at his best is such an offensive cheat code whose impact just can't be matched by the best of other historically great players. And by best, I mean we have to have seen that before. Bron can theoretically get hot and hit 10 3s in a game but he never has.

With a hot Curry, we're talking about a guy who can shoot 60% on pull-up 3s from 30+ feet in any manner of ways. Other players are more easily doubled (particularly interior big men) but a hot Curry can't without the defense being completely stretched to the point of rupture.

[Peregrine01]

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

[Outside]

I'm a Curry fan as much as anyone, but the GOAT tier players have a physical advantage that Curry lacks. LeBron, for example, can rise up over defenders or bully ball his way to layups. Steph can't do that.

[falcolombardi]

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

sure, but curry doesnt do that so i dont get the hyperbolic example?

[falcolombardi]

I'm a Curry fan as much as anyone, but the GOAT tier players have a physical advantage that Curry lacks. LeBron, for example, can rise up over defenders or bully ball his way to layups. Steph can't do that.

i think is a valid opinion offensively is possible that with a ultra hot hand the offende of curry is more valuable that even the best of shaq, jordan or lebron cause 3>2

i think is defense where players like jordan and lebron primarily separate themselves from curry

curry is not bad, but guys like bron or jordan could be huge on that end

[jalengreen]

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

and now imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes AND plays elite defense - he'd be the GOAT over your hypothetical player.

[eminence]

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

and now imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes AND plays elite defense - he'd be the GOAT over your hypothetical player.

In pure hypothetical land elite defense wouldn't add anything to the 100% shooter (in a strictly logic/math sense).

[jalengreen]

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

and now imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes AND plays elite defense - he'd be the GOAT over your hypothetical player.

In pure hypothetical land elite defense wouldn't add anything to the 100% shooter (in a strictly logic/math sense).

player B would have the higher net rating

[falcolombardi]

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

and now imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes AND plays elite defense - he'd be the GOAT over your hypothetical player.

In pure hypothetical land elite defense wouldn't add anything to the 100% shooter (in a strictly logic/math sense).

only if the 100% 3pt shooter can play every minute and get a shot off every possesion and do so without getting tired and shooting worse

[Peregrine01]

I don't think I agree. Offensively I would, but I'd take a guy like G5-G7 2016 Finals LeBron over any version of Steph. The difference in defensive impact is huge.

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

sure, but curry doesnt do that so i dont get the hyperbolic example?

The example is extreme to try to elucidate that balance and two-way play doesn't matter all that much if one guy's offense is so good that his overall impact is superior to other more "well-rounded" players.

[jalengreen]

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

sure, but curry doesnt do that so i dont get the hyperbolic example?

The example is extreme to try to elucidate that balance and two-way play doesn't matter all that much if one guy's offense is so good that his overall impact is superior to other more "well-rounded" players.

a scenario that does not apply to lebron james

[eminence]

and now imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes AND plays elite defense - he'd be the GOAT over your hypothetical player.

In pure hypothetical land elite defense wouldn't add anything to the 100% shooter (in a strictly logic/math sense).

player B would have the higher net rating

Player A would win just as many games

[falcolombardi]

Curry's defense won't matter when he completely buries teams with his offense. Imagine a player who can shoot 100% on any field goal he takes - he'd be the GOAT even if he just sits on defense and lets his team play 4 on 5.

sure, but curry doesnt do that so i dont get the hyperbolic example?

The example is extreme to try to elucidate that balance and two-way play doesn't matter all that much if one guy's offense is so good that his overall impact is superior to other more "well-rounded" players.

sure but going hyperbole vs hyperbole what if there was a playet who could score a 2 point field goal 100% of the time while also stopping the other tean fron scoring every possesion he guards?

is about as realistic as the guy who hits 100% from 3

[Peregrine01]

sure, but curry doesnt do that so i dont get the hyperbolic example?

The example is extreme to try to elucidate that balance and two-way play doesn't matter all that much if one guy's offense is so good that his overall impact is superior to other more "well-rounded" players.

a scenario that does not apply to lebron james

That's fine if that's your opinion. My view is that Curry at his best just breaks the game in a way that Lebron at his best doesn't. But Curry's low is also lower than Lebron's low, IMO, which is why I don't think he's in the same tier with Lebron as a player.

[falcolombardi]

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

Jokic has tremendous gravity in the post, where he’s probably the best paint scorer in the league. But he also has extremely valuable gravity on the perimeter with a Dirk-like ability to pull bigs away from the rim. His gravity was the biggest reason why Murray was able to go off in the bubble.

Obviously Curry’s gravity is unique but Jokic’s is as well in its ability to compromise defenses.

So I think what's being circled around here is that to the extent "gravity" is an appropriate metaphor based on measurable warping of defensive spacing based on where players stand in any particular moment, Curry's latent impact goes beyond gravity.

When a guy is running around, it takes a lot more out of you as a player to remain only X distance away from him, to say nothing of the triggering his arrival in another player's proximity does to his attention.

i wanted to ask you somethingh doc

i know boston is not a 1-1 to bucks, but there is enough sinilarities down to how boston has taken a "dont sell out to stop curry at the 3-point line, paint first" approach

some of the thinghs i predicted would favor bucks in a series vs golden state have happened

-draymond lack of shooting threat being exploited
-warriors lack of size being a issue defensively inside
- most of the warriors players being significatively slowed down in offense

but on the other end, not selling out to stop curry (what bud likely would have gambled on) hss definetely hurt them as curry has gone off with the chance to get in rythim

how has this series, if at all, changed what you would expect from a bucks vs warriors series?

[jalengreen]

In pure hypothetical land elite defense wouldn't add anything to the 100% shooter (in a strictly logic/math sense).

player B would have the higher net rating

Player A would win just as many games

indeed, but in a GOAT discussion i have to imagine when you have two undefeated players, the tiebreaker would be who has *far* better impact metrics, +/-, net rating, etc.

[PaulieWal]

I'm sorry but some of these posts are out there. When LeBron is on his game with his offense and just controlling the pace of the game he's still easily better than Steph, just on offense alone. Some of you are way too enamored with 3 point shooting IMO.

Should add its not as simple as 3>2 when LeBron is just getting to the FT line relentlessly, shooting, generating offense from the post, finding corner shooters etc.