Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird?

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

ceiling raiser
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,531
And1: 3,754
Joined: Jan 27, 2013

Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#1 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:26 pm

I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
Matt15
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,546
And1: 555
Joined: Aug 27, 2008

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#2 » by Matt15 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:09 pm

Probably Top 15 if you value longevity and are not high on his playoffs. I have Kobe and Bird almost tied on my list at #10 and #11. What keeps Bird in many peoples top 10s though is his great peak in ’86 ,3 mvps in a row and also his 80’s rivalry with Magic who many have as a top 5-7 player all-time.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,897
And1: 25,242
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:29 pm

I can see him the lowest at 19th spot.
User avatar
Jaivl
Head Coach
Posts: 7,052
And1: 6,714
Joined: Jan 28, 2014
Location: A Coruña, Spain
Contact:
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#4 » by Jaivl » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:30 pm

The Karl Malone ranking: teens.
This place is a cesspool of mindless ineptitude, mental decrepitude, and intellectual lassitude. I refuse to be sucked any deeper into this whirlpool of groupthink sewage. My opinions have been expressed. I'm going to go take a shower.
Homer38
RealGM
Posts: 12,170
And1: 13,700
Joined: Dec 04, 2013

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#5 » by Homer38 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:33 pm

12 for me
Dutchball97
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,406
And1: 5,002
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:43 pm

His lacking longevity and pretty inconsistent play-off form gives room to push him below a couple of guys who stuck around longer but I do think it's important not to go too far and put him below players that were never comparable to prime Bird.

If you put a premium on longevity and don't look too much at play-off success you could get him to the mid to late teens probably.
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 3,912
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#7 » by No-more-rings » Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:32 pm

There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 12,603
And1: 8,233
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#8 » by trex_8063 » Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:54 pm

About 14th or 15th is as far as I can go with him at present (though Steph Curry could be bumping him in the next year for me; I doubt it'll happen this year, regardless how the finals round out this year).

Presently I have Bird sitting 12th on my ATL.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#9 » by ty 4191 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:22 am

70sFan wrote:I can see him the lowest at 19th spot.


Why? Please explain and expound.
ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#10 » by ty 4191 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:24 am

No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.


Agreed. He's probably top 10 for me, in fact. Peak is far more important than counting stats and compiling stats.

Over a 9 year stretch, Larry Bird won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 4th once. Sheer dominance.

Larry Bird: 88(2), 87(3), 86(), 85(), 84(*), 83(2), 82(2), 81(2), 80(4) = 9 (3 MVPs) (4 2nd places)
xinxin
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,794
And1: 1,505
Joined: Jul 01, 2018
 

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#11 » by xinxin » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:35 am

Considering peak, he’s probably in the Top 10.

Good points though on longevity and he wasn’t the same come playoff time

But he was what made the 80s a Magic & Bird rivalry. Brought the league to new heights.

Plus without him in the top 10, that’ll leave Russel as the only Celtic , while the lakers have 6. If you count Lebron as well at least based on ESPN..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dooley
Sophomore
Posts: 162
And1: 131
Joined: Apr 22, 2022

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#12 » by Dooley » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:42 am

No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.


So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,510
And1: 7,112
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#13 » by falcolombardi » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:46 am

Dooley wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.


So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.


wade is a tough argument as his longevity is actually worse than bird, so you would need to consider him significatively better than larry
Cavsfansince84
RealGM
Posts: 14,943
And1: 11,448
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#14 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:53 am

ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.


I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.
Dooley
Sophomore
Posts: 162
And1: 131
Joined: Apr 22, 2022

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#15 » by Dooley » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:56 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Dooley wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:There’s no reasonable case in my mind where he’s not top 15.


So out of Kobe, West, Steph, Garnett, Wade, Oscar and Durant, which 2 do you think have no reasonable case over Bird? To be clear I have Bird over most or all of those players but I do think someone could make a reasonable argument for any of them.


wade is a tough argument as his longevity is actually worse than bird, so you would need to consider him significatively better than larry


I think the argument for having Wade significantly above Bird would be a straightforward one - Wade's a much better playoff scorer while being in the same ballpark for longevity and a strong overall resume in his own right. Obviously there are other advantages that you can point to for Bird. But I could understand someone who wanted to make the case that Wade's playoff scoring outweighs Bird's passing, spacing, etc.
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,510
And1: 7,112
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#16 » by falcolombardi » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:57 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.


I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.


i dont think lakers were sacrificing anythingh, they just happened to have a ton of talented offensive players (and kurt rambis, who is not the archetypical "sacrifice defense for offense" pkayer)
ceiling raiser
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,531
And1: 3,754
Joined: Jan 27, 2013

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#17 » by ceiling raiser » Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:58 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
ceiling raiser wrote:I’ve been thinking about this recently, and he seems to stand out like a sore thumb when compared to other top 15 players.

Three major issues:

• Below average longevity for an ATG
• Consistent dropoff in the playoffs
• Teams were not GOAT offenses

He’s a guy I very often see in top tens, sometimes top fives, but seems to be out of place.

I guess he would likely benefit from playing in the +/- era.


I don't feel like the bolded matters at all. I mean sure that can be a nice cherry on top for guys who have reputations as offensive savants but I think most of those Boston offenses were near tops in the league. I looked it up and they did go from 19th to 2nd in ORtg in his rookie year along with many other years where they were top 3 while going against the Lakers and a couple other offenses that were sacrificing defense greatly to prop up their offense. I agree though that I'm a bit lower on Bird than I used to be. Whereas 5 years ago I saw him being more in the 5-8 range now I'd say 8-11.

So my issue is, Bird’s case as a top 10 player is predicated on GOAT level on offense, right?

We don’t have any real +/- data from the 80s (outside of numbers against the Sixers from Pollack and some of the tracking Squared2020 has done), so team level ORtg (and for defenders) DRtg is probably the best metric we have to evaluate players (I guess WOWY too? I have been out of the loop a bit, but I remember Ben put together a list a while ago).
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
Cavsfansince84
RealGM
Posts: 14,943
And1: 11,448
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#18 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:02 am

falcolombardi wrote:
i dont think lakers were sacrificing anythingh, they just happened to have a ton of talented offensive players (and kurt rambis, who is not the archetypical "sacrifice defense for offense" pkayer)


I wasn't referring to the Lakers though. More the Nuggets, Jazz and maybe someone else. They were giving up like 115-120ppg.
Cavsfansince84
RealGM
Posts: 14,943
And1: 11,448
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#19 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:05 am

ceiling raiser wrote:So my issue is, Bird’s case as a top 10 player is predicated on GOAT level on offense, right?

We don’t have any real +/- data from the 80s (outside of numbers against the Sixers from Pollack and some of the tracking Squared2020 has done), so team level ORtg (and for defenders) DRtg is probably the best metric we have to evaluate players (I guess WOWY too? I have been out of the loop a bit, but I remember Ben put together a list a while ago).


I'm not sure about that either. I feel like offense is part of it but its just his overall package and his overall team success and being top 3 in mvp voting I think every year of his prime plus just being such a key part of reinvigorating the league.
User avatar
Baz
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,835
And1: 2,684
Joined: Mar 18, 2015
       

Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Larry Bird? 

Post#20 » by Baz » Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:37 am

Anything outside of top 10 is baffling to me personally

Return to Player Comparisons