Which versions of Michael Jordan were better than 2022 Jokic and Giannis?

[Homer38]

FYI Giannis and Jokic both lost to inferior teams with HCA nor ever 3 peated for the franchise that drafted them.

Not in 2022

[ty 4191]

Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Jokic is third all time in PER and WS/48 in NBA History of all players with 15,000 MP. I'd say 15,000 MP is a statistically significant sample size for a career.

And, Jokic's last two years are on par with anything anyone has ever done, considering how deep and strong the league is, now.

WS/48 is mostly a junk stat, and PER skews heavily towards offense which is where most of if not all of his impact comes from. Jokic isn’t really much of a two-way player even if he was a net positive on defense this year, someone like Lebron, MJ and Kareem among others are significantly better defenders. In Jordan’s case he was a transcendent athlete with goat level mid range game, along with a lot of other skills. Someone like him isn’t going to limited playing in a league with more talent, why would he be?

Which specific metrics do you use to evaluate player value?

I disagree with you contention that Jordan would dominate as much today…

(At least) 5 of the top 10 players the past 3 years are non American and wouldn’t have been vetted, scouted, drafted in the 90’s. 25% of the league are non American versus 2% as late as 97-98…

Also, if you look at the standard deviation of winning
percentage, which I have, you’ll see that the 1989-1998 NBA had the least parity. Several terrible teams added 1988-1996 and many, many G League types to beat up on for Jordan’s Prime.

I think he’d still be totally awesome, but, there are far more superstar players from all around the globe today, and he wouldn’t be by far the best player anymore, nor would he totally dominate as much…

[ty 4191]

Probably his eight best seasons:

88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96, and 97

EDIT: '98 MJ and '22 Jokic roughly equal.

I can respect the guy who said he'd take Jokic and Giannis over any Jordan, though. The league is much better now, he's right about that. I tend to think Jordan would be an extremely different player in today's league, though, and I like to give the benefit of the doubt if a guy dominates his era and wins titles.

Totally agreed, except, it absolutely takes great teammates to win titles!

To that point, I’ve posted this before, elsewhere, but it certainly bears mentioning again, here:

Great regular season player

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or had to resign, every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

[kayess]

FYI Giannis and Jokic both lost to inferior teams with HCA nor ever 3 peated for the franchise that drafted them.

They didn't compete in a league watered down by expansion, with a significantly limited global talent pool, and refs not calling travelling on literally every Jordan dribble. They're also nowhere near as lucky as Jordan was with his supporting cast; Krause, a GM light years ahead of his time, Phil Jackson the GOAT coach, and a GOAT-level list of supporting players: Scottie, Grant (criminally underrated), and a revolving door of great, clutch role players.

You take away even one of those things, and Jordan becomes a complete joke instead, IMO. Just like you.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I don't buy Giannis as much in terms of ATG peaks except for this year. Jokic is hard to evaluate due to defense but offensively and holistically I can definitely buy him having an ATG level peak.

You said except for this year. Do you think there is a big difference between him this year and 2021 or 2020?

[falcolombardi]

this thread is getting heated lol

[TheGOATRises007]

FYI Giannis and Jokic both lost to inferior teams with HCA nor ever 3 peated for the franchise that drafted them.

They didn't compete in a league watered down by expansion, with a significantly limited global talent pool, and refs not calling travelling on literally every Jordan dribble. They're also nowhere near as lucky as Jordan was with his supporting cast; Krause, a GM light years ahead of his time, Phil Jackson the GOAT coach, and a GOAT-level list of supporting players: Scottie, Grant (criminally underrated), and a revolving door of great, clutch role players.

You take away even one of those things, and Jordan becomes a complete joke instead, IMO. Just like you.

This is the kind of stuff you see on the GB.

And calling Krause ahead of his time is hilarious when you choose to ignore his mishaps.

[capfan33]

I don't buy Giannis as much in terms of ATG peaks except for this year. Jokic is hard to evaluate due to defense but offensively and holistically I can definitely buy him having an ATG level peak.

You said except for this year. Do you think there is a big difference between him this year and 2021 or 2020?

From what little I've watched+people's observations, better mid-range game and added experience have made him more resilient in the postseason. I think his series against the obviously really tough Boston defense was impressive, I can forgive the relative lack of efficiency considering the circumstances.

Maybe there isn't as big a gap with last year but I think at a minimum he's clearly improved this year.

[No-more-rings]

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Jokic is third all time in PER and WS/48 in NBA History of all players with 15,000 MP. I'd say 15,000 MP is a statistically significant sample size for a career.

And, Jokic's last two years are on par with anything anyone has ever done, considering how deep and strong the league is, now.

WS/48 is mostly a junk stat, and PER skews heavily towards offense which is where most of if not all of his impact comes from. Jokic isn’t really much of a two-way player even if he was a net positive on defense this year, someone like Lebron, MJ and Kareem among others are significantly better defenders. In Jordan’s case he was a transcendent athlete with goat level mid range game, along with a lot of other skills. Someone like him isn’t going to limited playing in a league with more talent, why would he be?

Which specific metrics do you use to evaluate player value?

I disagree with you contention that Jordan would dominate as much today…

(At least) 5 of the top 10 players the past 3 years are non American and wouldn’t have been vetted, scouted, drafted in the 90’s. 25% of the league are non American versus 2% as late as 97-98…

Also, if you look at the standard deviation of winning
percentage, which I have, you’ll see that the 1989-1998 NBA had the least parity. Several terrible teams added 1988-1996 and many, many G League types to beat up on for Jordan’s Prime.

I think he’d still be totally awesome, but, there are far more superstar players from all around the globe today, and he wouldn’t be by far the best player anymore, nor would he totally dominate as much…

What do I value? Well for one, how they do in impact stuff like RAPM compared to others at the time definitely matters to me, box score stuff matters too but i stand firm you can’t just blindly compare stats like PER or BPM across vastly different eras. Jordan is at least an outlier in those for his time, while Jokic probably not quite as much. Can you say that’s because of more talent? I suppose so, but I don’t know where you get this idea that Jordan was like going against weak defenders or something. Jordan wasn’t usually slowed down by one on one defense anyhow, younger Jordan struggled a little against the Pistons because they were loaded defensively and had guys in the paint ready to wack him when he drives. Jordan at that time didn’t have nearly the kind of space to drive that guards do today. Jokic himself isn’t bulletproof either, we saw him have some odd strugles against Phoenix and he had issues with Dwight playing him one on one against the Lakers. I don’t think he’s now the goat because he just dominated 6’7 Draymond. Certainly I can’t feel comfortable calling someone goat if they haven’t proven they can win 4 straight series and be dominant the whole way through. Jokic could possibly be on his way to being the “offensive goat” but i’m really skeptical. I don’t think he can quite match the top tier level of guards/wings on that end, and he’s nowhere near goat tier defensively. Lebron is goat tier offensively, and dpoy caliber on defense. If you think Jokic is better than peak Lebron, i’d just suggest you go watch some games from like 09 or 2012 or something not 2020 or 2018. I’d be surprised if you come away with the same stance.

[cpower]

maybe 3-4 years but MJ are not leading this Nuggets anywhere anyway

[ty 4191]

Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Do you have your peaks list?

Do you have your peaks list? Please post, if so. Top 10-15.

Thanks, man.

[70sFan]

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Do you have your peaks list?

Do you have your peaks list? Please post, if so. Top 10-15.

Thanks, man.

Wait for peaks project

[ty 4191]

FYI Giannis and Jokic both lost to inferior teams with HCA nor ever 3 peated for the franchise that drafted them.

They didn't compete in a league watered down by expansion, with a significantly limited global talent pool, and refs not calling travelling on literally every Jordan dribble. They're also nowhere near as lucky as Jordan was with his supporting cast; Krause, a GM light years ahead of his time, Phil Jackson the GOAT coach, and a GOAT-level list of supporting players: Scottie, Grant (criminally underrated), and a revolving door of great, clutch role players.

You take away even one of those things, and Jordan becomes a complete joke instead, IMO. Just like you.

This is the kind of stuff you see on the GB.

And calling Krause ahead of his time is hilarious when you choose to ignore his mishaps.

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

[TheGOATRises007]

They didn't compete in a league watered down by expansion, with a significantly limited global talent pool, and refs not calling travelling on literally every Jordan dribble. They're also nowhere near as lucky as Jordan was with his supporting cast; Krause, a GM light years ahead of his time, Phil Jackson the GOAT coach, and a GOAT-level list of supporting players: Scottie, Grant (criminally underrated), and a revolving door of great, clutch role players.

You take away even one of those things, and Jordan becomes a complete joke instead, IMO. Just like you.

This is the kind of stuff you see on the GB.

And calling Krause ahead of his time is hilarious when you choose to ignore his mishaps.

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

I have no idea why you went off on such a long tangent.

I never said Jordan won by himself.

I was refuting the point that Krause was so ahead of his time. He had plenty of mishaps like other GMs and he himself wanted to fire the coach responsible for the Bulls dynasty. Why that gets overlooked is beyond me when discussing his abilities.

[ty 4191]

I have no idea why you went off on such a long tangent.

I never said Jordan won by himself.

I was refuting the point that Krause was so ahead of his time. He had plenty of mishaps like other GMs and he himself wanted to fire the coach responsible for the Bulls dynasty. Why that gets overlooked is beyond me when discussing his abilities.

My long tangent is because the "rings" argument is totally specious and facile. Not indicting you specifically with using it, but, most people here, do. It's totally obnoxious and misleading.

What did Kareem win 74'-75' through 78'-79'? He was far and away the best player in the NBA, by light years, and never won anything. Or, even came close.

Missed the playoffs two years in a row, a first round exit another year. One WCF that entire 5 year timeframe.

The point is: it's not about how great you are, it's about how great your teammates, coaching, management, ownership is.

[falcolombardi]

I have no idea why you went off on such a long tangent.

I never said Jordan won by himself.

I was refuting the point that Krause was so ahead of his time. He had plenty of mishaps like other GMs and he himself wanted to fire the coach responsible for the Bulls dynasty. Why that gets overlooked is beyond me when discussing his abilities.

My long tangent is because the "rings" argument is totally specious and facile. Not indicting you specifically with using it, but, most people here, do. It's totally obnoxious and misleading.

What did Kareem win 74'-75' through 78'-79'? He was far and away the best player in the NBA, by light years, and never won anything. Or, even came close.

Missed the playoffs two years in a row, a first round exit another year. One WCF that entire 5 year timeframe.

The point is: it's not about how great you are, it's about how great your teammates, coaching, management, ownership is.

you probably could argue with jordan examples

he was aeguably at his peak from 88-90 and won nil

he was diminished in 96-98 (specially 98) amd wom 3 rings, there is zero case for 98 jordan over 90 jordan but tje former won and the latter didnt

[prolific passer]

Welp. Since nobody is saying 1987. I'm gonna go with 87. Sure his FG% was down a bit but 37.1ppg with great defense is nothing to ignore.

[ShotCreator]

Wait so you think Giannis and Jokic already have goat level peaks?

Yes, you don't? Why not?

Jokic is third all time in PER and WS/48 in NBA History of all players with 15,000 MP. I'd say 15,000 MP is a statistically significant sample size for a career.

And, Jokic's last two years are on par with anything anyone has ever done, considering how deep and strong the league is, now.

WS/48 is mostly a junk stat, and PER skews heavily towards offense which is where most of if not all of his impact comes from. Jokic isn’t really much of a two-way player even if he was a net positive on defense this year, someone like Lebron, MJ and Kareem among others are significantly better defenders. In Jordan’s case he was a transcendent athlete with goat level mid range game, along with a lot of other skills. Someone like him isn’t going to limited playing in a league with more talent, why would he be?

Two things.

You just decide good defense doesn’t make you a good defensive player because, it just doesn’t and you just believe that? That’s your logic?

And why wouldn’t Jordan have an harder time dominating a smarter, more talented league?

I think the superior strategies is as big of a deal as a league with way more talent, scouting, and overall development.

Teams like the Warriors, Spurs, and Raptors would’ve made Jordan’s gambling and lack of defensive discipline much more painful for him in a playoff series. Not saying it didn’t hurt his teams before, but he would’ve had disaster defensive series with his attention span.

[kayess]

This is the kind of stuff you see on the GB.

And calling Krause ahead of his time is hilarious when you choose to ignore his mishaps.

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

I have no idea why you went off on such a long tangent.

I never said Jordan won by himself.

I was refuting the point that Krause was so ahead of his time. He had plenty of mishaps like other GMs and he himself wanted to fire the coach responsible for the Bulls dynasty. Why that gets overlooked is beyond me when discussing his abilities.

FYI, I was clearly being sarcastic and mocking the general timbre of moronic arguments bandied about when Jordan comes into play (both for/against, but mostly for, by moronic stans - and JB of course being the opposite of what the creme de la creme is of that).

It's true Krause had mishaps, but are you really going to say he didn't pioneer a shitton and wasn't overall, an insane net value add for the Bulls? It's absolutely **** crazy, lmao, these Jordan stans.

Also, the extent to which Krause's faults are overlooked are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below the extent to which Jordan's "luck" (factors outside of his control going his way) isn't factored in discussions re: his greatness. So you're fooling yourself.

[TheGOATRises007]

Jordan didn't win anything until they built a Dynasty around him. Neither did Wilt, nor has Jokic.

Michael Jordan through age 27, Playoffs, before they built a Dynasty around him:

-Playoffs (53 games)
-Team Record: 24-29
-Team Series Record: 5-6
-3 first round exits, including 2 first round sweeps
-Two ECF

Jordan's line: 36.2/6.9/6.7 on +4.7% rTS. Led all players those years in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Nikola Jokic through age 26, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (48 games)
-Team Record: 21-27
-Team Series Record: 4-4
-1 first round exit
-1 WCF

Jokic's line: 26.4/11.5/6.4 on +4.1 rTS%. Top 3 player in all advanced and traditional metrics in the playoffs.

Wilt Chamberlain through age 28, Playoffs:

-Playoffs: (47 games)
-Team Record: 21-26
-Team Series Record: 4-5
-Much shorter playoffs structure, so they're incompatible. Still:

Wilt's line: 33.4/26.0/3.2 on +4.7 tTS%. Clearly the MVP in the playoffs in all advanced and traditional metrics.

What did Michael Jordan win before they built a Superteam around him, while also bringing in the greatest coach of all time?

What did Wilt win, while he had coaches (that got fired or resigned every year or so) 1960-1965? What did he win before he got great coaches, teammates, ownership, management around him?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's not how great YOU are, but how great your teammates, coaches, management, ownership are?

I have no idea why you went off on such a long tangent.

I never said Jordan won by himself.

I was refuting the point that Krause was so ahead of his time. He had plenty of mishaps like other GMs and he himself wanted to fire the coach responsible for the Bulls dynasty. Why that gets overlooked is beyond me when discussing his abilities.

FYI, I was clearly being sarcastic and mocking the general timbre of moronic arguments bandied about when Jordan comes into play (both for/against, but mostly for, by moronic stans - and JB of course being the opposite of what the creme de la creme is of that).

It's true Krause had mishaps, but are you really going to say he didn't pioneer a shitton and wasn't overall, an insane net value add for the Bulls? It's absolutely **** crazy, lmao, these Jordan stans.

Also, the extent to which Krause's faults are overlooked are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below the extent to which Jordan's "luck" (factors outside of his control going his way) isn't factored in discussions re: his greatness. So you're fooling yourself.

I don't know why you're labeling me as a Jordan stan when I'm anything but the sort.

I never said Krause didn't add value to the Bulls during the dynasty years.

I just disputed the notion that Krause was way ahead of his time. His absolute failure post Jordan shouldn't be overlooked entirely.

Why are you ignoring the very fact that he wanted to fire Phil Jackson for Tim Floyd? That's someone who's light years ahead of his time? He'd be willing to fire arguably the best coach ever for a complete novice?

He was a great GM. Not buying that he was light years ahead of his time though.