Highest reasonable ranking for Shaq?

[ardee]

I had a come to Jesus moment about him a couple of years ago and realized just what a ridiculous career he had. Insane longevity, basically 13 straight years of 20/10, stupendous and extended peak too.

I have him at 6 right now, behind LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell and Wilt. I think I could argue him as high as 4 on that list.

Shaq/Kareem could be a serious discussion and go either way depending on how much importance you place on peak. So yeah maaaaybe 3 but I'd still take Kareem overall.

[falcolombardi]

4th i think if you are low-ish on russel and duncan

i dont see his case vs kareem, lebron or jordan

[eminence]

I can see an argument for Shaq as GOAT. 5 finals, 4 wins in a 7 year period as a star (#2 in the last ring). Probably the most dominant post scorer in history. Defense worked fairly well in his own era.

Some points of emphasis that would help Shaq - high on playoff performance, high on post scoring, don't bother much with off-court analysis, relatively low on pre-3pt stuff, don't bother with era portability.

[TheGOATRises007]

3rd for me.

I think it's gone off the radar just how well Shaq played vs that historic Pistons defense in 2004. He had 62% TS against a Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace frontcourt. This is a Shaq in his later prime years too.

His ORTG is 111 for the series. I've gone back and re-watched that series. Shaq was easily scoring in the paint at will. They should have played through him more. Kobe was absolutely brutal in that series.

[falcolombardi]

I can see an argument for Shaq as GOAT. 5 finals, 4 wins in a 7 year period as a star (#2 in the last ring). Probably the most dominant post scorer in history. Defense worked fairly well in his own era.

Some points of emphasis that would help Shaq - high on playoff performance, high on post scoring, don't bother much with off-court analysis, relatively low on pre-3pt stuff, don't bother with era portability.

the most effective post scorer was by far kareem

shaq has weaker health than most top 10 players and his longevity is not outstanding for the top 10

unless we value his peak/prime as the best ever i am unsure lf his #1 case

kareem for example was a better scorer, more efficient and probably a better defender while shaq was a bigger off ball threat, better rebounder and foul drawer

even before longevity i am unsure if shaq was as impactfull as kareem for example

[FuShengTHEGreat]

As high as the 2nd greatest Center ever.

[eminence]

I can see an argument for Shaq as GOAT. 5 finals, 4 wins in a 7 year period as a star (#2 in the last ring). Probably the most dominant post scorer in history. Defense worked fairly well in his own era.

Some points of emphasis that would help Shaq - high on playoff performance, high on post scoring, don't bother much with off-court analysis, relatively low on pre-3pt stuff, don't bother with era portability.

the most effective post scorer was by far kareem

shaq has weaker health than most top 10 players and his longevity is not outstanding for the top 10

unless we value his peak/prime as the best ever i am unsure lf his #1 case

kareem for example was a better scorer, more efficient and probably a better defender while shaq was a bigger off ball threat, better rebounder and foul drawer

even before longevity i am unsure if shaq was as impactfull as kareem for example

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

Shaqs longevity is fine enough though not on par with KAJ, 14 great seasons '93-'06. He certainly has a case for #1 peak/prime.

I think people underrate how many players have GOAT cases - personally I can see a case for all of Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, KAJ, Magic, Hakeem, Jordan, Shaq, KG, Duncan, and LeBron. Some would probably include even a few others.

[1993Playoffs]

3rd or 4th if you value his peak. But I guess it depends on how you view Kareem

[70sFan]

I guess 4th or 5th is the highest I can see him. I have him 8th though.

[70sFan]

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

[LAL1947]

IMO, the highest possible ranking for Shaq is 3rd after MJ and Wilt... or 2nd, if you're low on Wilt's records and aren't able to envision him playing in modern circumstances, while being free of old-school thought processes, rules, etc. I don't hold Wilt's losses to the Celtics against him seeing as that whole organization was more professional and intelligent than others at the time.

[Dutchball97]

I'd say 5th behind MJ, LeBron, Kareem and Russell. I guess there are enough people who hyperfocus on offense or just don't rate the 60s as highly that would put Shaq ahead of Russell without a second thought so I guess you could push it to 4th but I'm not sure I'd qualify either point (offense way more important than defense and 60s not being good) as "reasonable".

[eminence]

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

Honest question - how many seasons worth of games have you hand-tracked for each to feel you can strongly make that claim? Is it league adjusted?

I see Gilmore hanging with Kareem in the post through the 70s (albeit as a lesser version), but nobody coming even close to Shaq in his own prime.

[70sFan]

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

Honest question - how many seasons worth of games have you hand-tracked for each to feel you can strongly make that claim? Is it league adjusted?

I see Gilmore hanging with Kareem in the post through the 70s (albeit as a lesser version), but nobody coming even close to Shaq in his own prime.

I tracked 38 1971-79 Kareem games and over 50 2000-01 Shaq games.

[eminence]

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

Honest question - how many seasons worth of games have you hand-tracked for each to feel you can strongly make that claim? Is it league adjusted?

I see Gilmore hanging with Kareem in the post through the 70s (albeit as a lesser version), but nobody coming even close to Shaq in his own prime.

I tracked 38 1971-79 Kareem games and over 50 2000-01 Shaq games.

Could you link to them (if you've posted)?

[70sFan]

Honest question - how many seasons worth of games have you hand-tracked for each to feel you can strongly make that claim? Is it league adjusted?

I see Gilmore hanging with Kareem in the post through the 70s (albeit as a lesser version), but nobody coming even close to Shaq in his own prime.

I tracked 38 1971-79 Kareem games and over 50 2000-01 Shaq games.

Could you link to them (if you've posted)?

I haven't posted it yet, I need to do it at some point. Do you want to know anything specific?

[eminence]

I tracked 38 1971-79 Kareem games and over 50 2000-01 Shaq games.

Could you link to them (if you've posted)?

I haven't posted it yet, I need to do it at some point. Do you want to know anything specific?

Nah, I'll wait to see it with the rest of the unwashed masses

[capfan33]

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

Just to piggyback of this, Shaq's strength as a scorer/offensive player was his off-ball movement and gravity. In pure 1v1 post-ups he was still elite, but Kareem was pretty obviously better both based on the numbers we have and film. If I remember correctly, someone tracked Shaq in the 3-peat playoffs at .98 PPP in the post, which is really good based on the volume he had.

Kareem was at 1.07PPP on 18 posessions per game, at 35 years old, facing Gilmore and Moses a majority of those games. So yea, I feel comfortable saying Kareem was a better pure post player but Shaq had more gravity.

[eminence]

If you're taking into account FT shooting with post scorer, I can buy that. If not weighting FT shooting then Shaq generally has a small statistical edge on Kareem through eachs prime in the post.

If by "post scorer" you mean ability to create points from post up isolations and off-ball positioning, then Kareem is considerably more efficient even without taking FTs into account.

If you include offensive rebounding and finishing,l garbage plays, then Shaq is slightly more efficient. Kareem still crushes him at 3-10 range though.

Just to piggyback of this, Shaq's strength as a scorer/offensive player was his off-ball movement and gravity. In pure 1v1 post-ups he was still elite, but Kareem was pretty obviously better both based on the numbers we have and film. If I remember correctly, someone tracked Shaq in the 3-peat playoffs at .98 PPP in the post, which is really good based on the volume he had.

Kareem was at 1.07PPP on 18 posessions per game, at 35 years old, facing Gilmore and Moses a majority of those games. So yea, I feel comfortable saying Kareem was a better pure post player but Shaq had more gravity.

Do those numbers include FT%? If so, off the top of my head that'd be close to a toss-up on scoring efficiency. Would need to sit down to do the math, but it'd be close.

They would seem to be included, because Kareem only took ~19 FGA a game that playoff run, seems highly unlikely 18 of 19 were on pure 1v1 post-ups.

I don't have Moses a particularly noteworthy post defender fwiw.

[capfan33]

Ok I actually found the numbers, Shaq was 48% on FGs and Kareem 55%. The previous numbers did include FT% but Kareem didn't draw a lot of fouls so it doesn't make that big a difference numbers-wise. Kareem "only" shot 50% against Gilmore and Moses.

Also, I think Moses was a pretty good post defender, especially compared to his overall D. Even though I think Kareem's drop in efficiency may have had more to do with the 76ers athletic help defense than Moses' 1on1 defense.