2002 & 2003 Wizards with 1998 MJ

rand · Post #1 » by **rand** » Wed Jun 8, 2022 10:19 am

How would the 2002 and 2003 Wizards teams that Jordan joined in his 2nd comeback fared if they had Jordan in the same age and condition as his last season with the Bulls?

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Jun 8, 2022 12:19 pm

I notice you don't have "barely miss playoffs" as a choice. As a longtime Wizards fan, I can tell you that should always be an option. In 2003 they won 35 games and needed to win 43 to be sure of a playoff berth. Maybe, but far from a sure thing. In 2004, they won only 25 and needed 39. Probably miss playoffs even with 98 Jordan.

Jordan didn't deal well with losing and was extremely harsh on his teammates, particularly straight out of HS #1 draft choice Kwame Brown. I don't think 98 Jordan would handle it any better though he would be better individually. It might even be worse because he is coming straight off 2 straight title teams and even with Jordan's best season, that's not a title team.

Redmoon · Post #3 » by **Redmoon** » Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:58 am

I think they would make the playoffs and optimistically a second round exit. The wizards were not a very good team and might have trouble in the first round too. old Jordan got injured a little after halfway through the season so I’d imagine a healthy 98 Jordan would power them through.

He wouldn’t be a sieve on defense and be a much better offensive player since he’d be able to penetrate and get to the hole more often. Wizards Jordan relied solely on his fadeaway in those years, was playing SF and faced stronger, longer defenders than he normally did, and very often shot horribly without his usual FT rate.

The way I interpret this is if 38 yr old MJ magically gets his 34 yr old body back. He joined the wizards team understanding it was a young team and expected a learning curve.

Post #4 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:53 am

Actually, he didn't rely solely on his fadeaway but actually posted up a lot too. He didn't use the speed and air moves driving to the hole or the drive, stop, and pop moves as effectively as he had but he did still shoot near the basket. And not sure why he would understand that it was a young team with a learning curve when he showed little comprehension of that in the actual year. As he got younger even physically, he would expect more and probably get even more frustrated with his teammates and that was one of the points of contention about his Wizards years already.

OdomFan · Post #5 » by **OdomFan** » Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:37 pm

They'd have a better chance if 2003 Charles Oakley is also given his 1998 youth back to give them that extra big body to use up against a potential Finals opponent like the Spurs or Lakers.

Silvie Lysandra · Post #6 » by **Silvie Lysandra** » Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:05 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I notice you don't have "barely miss playoffs" as a choice. As a longtime Wizards fan, I can tell you that should always be an option. In 2003 they won 35 games and needed to win 43 to be sure of a playoff berth. Maybe, but far from a sure thing. In 2004, they won only 25 and needed 39. Probably miss playoffs even with 98 Jordan.

Jordan didn't deal well with losing and was extremely harsh on his teammates, particularly straight out of HS #1 draft choice Kwame Brown. I don't think 98 Jordan would handle it any better though he would be better individually. It might even be worse because he is coming straight off 2 straight title teams and even with Jordan's best season, that's not a title team.

1998 MJ was the best player in basketball by a good margin that year (Malone had better numbers but he also had Stockton and Hornacek; the 98 Bulls were somewhat gutted with Pippen missing half the season and Rodman declining noticeably), and 38/39 year old MJ had the Wizards close to .500 in games he started. This is essentially replacing an All-Star level player with an MVP level player, *and* having that player for 82 games as opposed to 60. Before the injury in 2002, the Wizards were on a 45 win pace with Rip missing a lot of time.

Also can we stop blaming MJ for hurting Kwame's feelings already? Kwame Brown was and is a bitch and a manchild, and he's done nothing but blame other people for his own shortcomings, namely the superstars/HOFers/GOAT level players who held him to higher standards. Kwame Brown never had the mental makeup for the NBA. People blame MJ for being mean to him, when that's just the way he rolls, and always has, and players either responded and improved (like Pippen) or they sank.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #7 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:20 pm

My sense is that he'd whip them into shape with a much higher motor. I sort of doubt they'd make the finals but probably at least get them into the second round. That was a weak east though so who knows what happens.

Silvie Lysandra · Post #8 » by **Silvie Lysandra** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:07 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:My sense is that he'd whip them into shape with a much higher motor. I sort of doubt they'd make the finals but probably at least get them into the second round. That was a weak east though so who knows what happens.

The big problem is that Wizards team sucks **** ass. They have Rip Hamilton but he's not quite Wizards Rip, Brendan Haywood is a rookie (though he showed flashes unlike Kwame), and their role players are mediocre at best. As bad a move as trading Rip was irl, it's probably a good idea in this scenario. But for who?

picko · Post #9 » by **picko** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 am

I'd guess first round. Maybe second round.

The Wizards teams just weren't that good. That's true with 1998 Jordan or 2002 / 2003 Jordan. It's comparable to the very early Bulls teams that Jordan had very little success with.

The only argument that he might have made the second round is that the East wasn't terribly strong during that period with no standout teams. In an Eastern conference playoff series, 1998 Jordan is going to be the best player and that gives you at least a puncher's chance.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #10 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:39 am

Chaos Revenant wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:My sense is that he'd whip them into shape with a much higher motor. I sort of doubt they'd make the finals but probably at least get them into the second round. That was a weak east though so who knows what happens.

The big problem is that Wizards team sucks **** ass. They have Rip Hamilton but he's not quite Wizards Rip, Brendan Haywood is a rookie (though he showed flashes unlike Kwame), and their role players are mediocre at best. As bad a move as trading Rip was irl, it's probably a good idea in this scenario. But for who?

Pretty sure they were still over .500 with old man MJ before he went down. Give them an MJ who was mvp and who plays 82 games in a very weak west and they should still be top 5-6 easily. All it took was 45 wins to be the 3 seed in the east that year.

Silvie Lysandra · Post #11 » by **Silvie Lysandra** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:07 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
Chaos Revenant wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:My sense is that he'd whip them into shape with a much higher motor. I sort of doubt they'd make the finals but probably at least get them into the second round. That was a weak east though so who knows what happens.

The big problem is that Wizards team sucks **** ass. They have Rip Hamilton but he's not quite Wizards Rip, Brendan Haywood is a rookie (though he showed flashes unlike Kwame), and their role players are mediocre at best. As bad a move as trading Rip was irl, it's probably a good idea in this scenario. But for who?

Pretty sure they were still over .500 with old man MJ before he went down. Give them an MJ who was mvp and who plays 82 games in a very weak west and they should still be top 5-6 easily. All it took was 45 wins to be the 3 seed in the east that year.

I agree 98 MJ alone makes them a 2nd round exit team but I think that's the ceiling. That team was very, very bad without MJ.

Peak MJ could maybe carry them to the finals though, maybe. Maybe even 96 or 97 MJ.

Ambrose · Post #12 » by **Ambrose** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:06 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I notice you don't have "barely miss playoffs" as a choice. As a longtime Wizards fan, I can tell you that should always be an option. In 2003 they won 35 games and needed to win 43 to be sure of a playoff berth. Maybe, but far from a sure thing. In 2004, they won only 25 and needed 39. Probably miss playoffs even with 98 Jordan.

Jordan didn't deal well with losing and was extremely harsh on his teammates, particularly straight out of HS #1 draft choice Kwame Brown. I don't think 98 Jordan would handle it any better though he would be better individually. It might even be worse because he is coming straight off 2 straight title teams and even with Jordan's best season, that's not a title team.

Well there is a large talent/durability gap.

82 games of 34 year old Jordan-VORP 7.1 (tied for #1)
60 games of 38 year old Jordan, many of which were injured-VORP 2.7 (#42)
82 games of 39 year old Jordan-VORP 2.8 (#40)

Those are probably a minimum of 15 game swings.