How is Rick Barry ranked lower than Julius Erving

[migya]

I don't think either is really top 20, but some here have recently listed DrJ in their top 20. I don't see how Rick Barry isn't better or at least as good as Erving:


Nba and aba together:

Barry -
1020gms, 37.4mins, 6.7reb, 4.9ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 3.0tos, 24.8pts

Erving -
1243gms, 36.4mins, 8.5reb, 4.2ast, 2.0stl 1.7blk, 3.4tos, 24.2pts


Nba only:

Barry -
794gms, 36.3mkns, 6.5reb, 5.1ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 2.5tos, 23.2pts

Erving -
836gms, 34.3mins, 6.7reb, 3.9ast, 1.8stl, 1.5blk, 3.1tos, 22.0pts


Advanced stats, Offense Rating was only listed for Barry his last three seasons, don't know why. Bpm and vorp began being listed from 1974, half way through Barry's career and starting Erving's third season:

Barry -
105OR, 99DR,
NBA and ABA, 1020gms, 38153mins, 21.0PER, .525ts%, 89.2OWS, 39.7DWS, 128.9WS, .162WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP

NBA, 794gms, 28825mins, 20.2PER, .510ts%, 59.1OWS, 34.3DWS, 93.4WS, .156WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP


Erving -
112OR, 100DR, last three seasons (like Barry) 109OR, 107DR
NBA and ABA, 1243gms, 45227mins, 23.6PER, .558ts%, 107.3OWS, 73.8DWS, 181.1WS, .192WS/48, 6.2BPM, 80.1VORP

NBA, 836gms, 28677mins, 22.0PER, .558ts%, 61.9OWS, 44.3DWS, 106.2WS, .178WS/48, 5.2BPM, 51.8VORP

[Dutchball97]

I'm referring to it a lot lately but the POY voting paints a good picture of why there is such a difference in how they are regarded. Dr J is 10th in all-time in POY shares with 5.046, while Barry is 38th with 1.187 shares. 0.89 of those shares came in 1975 with some stray votes in a couple years making up the rest. His second best result in POY voting was a very distant 5th place finish in 1967. Outside of 1975 he was simply never in the conversation of best players in pro basketball. His career choices also don't help him as he went to the ABA when it was still getting established and left right when it was getting good to have his best year during arguably the weakest point in the NBA since the shotclock. Barry simply didn't have the best competition and didn't really dominate over them.

Dr J did better in the ABA than Barry against stronger competition and then went to the NBA when it was getting stronger again after the merger and had many more years of elite level play than Barry.

[homecourtloss]

I don't think either is really top 20, but some here have recently listed DrJ in their top 20. I don't see how Rick Barry isn't better or at least as good as Erving:


Nba and aba together:

Barry -
1020gms, 37.4mins, 6.7reb, 4.9ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 3.0tos, 24.8pts

Erving -
1243gms, 36.4mins, 8.5reb, 4.2ast, 2.0stl 1.7blk, 3.4tos, 24.2pts


Nba only:

Barry -
794gms, 36.3mkns, 6.5reb, 5.1ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 2.5tos, 23.2pts

Erving -
836gms, 34.3mins, 6.7reb, 3.9ast, 1.8stl, 1.5blk, 3.1tos, 22.0pts


Advanced stats, Offense Rating was only listed for Barry his last three seasons, don't know why. Bpm and vorp began being listed from 1974, half way through Barry's career and starting Erving's third season:

Barry -
105OR, 99DR,
NBA and ABA, 1020gms, 38153mins, 21.0PER, .525ts%, 89.2OWS, 39.7DWS, 128.9WS, .162WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP

NBA, 794gms, 28825mins, 20.2PER, .510ts%, 59.1OWS, 34.3DWS, 93.4WS, .156WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP


Erving -
112OR, 100DR, last three seasons (like Barry) 109OR, 107DR
NBA and ABA, 1243gms, 45227mins, 23.6PER, .558ts%, 107.3OWS, 73.8DWS, 181.1WS, .192WS/48, 6.2BPM, 80.1VORP

NBA, 836gms, 28677mins, 22.0PER, .558ts%, 61.9OWS, 44.3DWS, 106.2WS, .178WS/48, 5.2BPM, 51.8VORP

Not that they’re the be-all, end-all, but look at the massive gap in the advanced stats you just posted.

3.0 BPM vs 6.2 BPM
24.8 VORP vs. 80.1 VORP

Why would you ask “why isn’t Barry considered as good” and then post these?

[migya]

I don't think either is really top 20, but some here have recently listed DrJ in their top 20. I don't see how Rick Barry isn't better or at least as good as Erving:


Nba and aba together:

Barry -
1020gms, 37.4mins, 6.7reb, 4.9ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 3.0tos, 24.8pts

Erving -
1243gms, 36.4mins, 8.5reb, 4.2ast, 2.0stl 1.7blk, 3.4tos, 24.2pts


Nba only:

Barry -
794gms, 36.3mkns, 6.5reb, 5.1ast, 2.0stl, 0.5blk, 2.5tos, 23.2pts

Erving -
836gms, 34.3mins, 6.7reb, 3.9ast, 1.8stl, 1.5blk, 3.1tos, 22.0pts


Advanced stats, Offense Rating was only listed for Barry his last three seasons, don't know why. Bpm and vorp began being listed from 1974, half way through Barry's career and starting Erving's third season:

Barry -
105OR, 99DR,
NBA and ABA, 1020gms, 38153mins, 21.0PER, .525ts%, 89.2OWS, 39.7DWS, 128.9WS, .162WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP

NBA, 794gms, 28825mins, 20.2PER, .510ts%, 59.1OWS, 34.3DWS, 93.4WS, .156WS/48, 3.0BPM, 24.8VORP


Erving -
112OR, 100DR, last three seasons (like Barry) 109OR, 107DR
NBA and ABA, 1243gms, 45227mins, 23.6PER, .558ts%, 107.3OWS, 73.8DWS, 181.1WS, .192WS/48, 6.2BPM, 80.1VORP

NBA, 836gms, 28677mins, 22.0PER, .558ts%, 61.9OWS, 44.3DWS, 106.2WS, .178WS/48, 5.2BPM, 51.8VORP

Not that they’re the be-all, end-all, but look at the massive gap in the advanced stats you just posted.

3.0 BPM vs 6.2 BPM
24.8 VORP vs. 80.1 VORP

Why would you ask “why isn’t Barry considered as good” and then post these?

Read what I wrote; the bpm and vorp are only for the second half of Barry's career, not counting his best seasons.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think either is really top 20, but some here have recently listed DrJ in their top 20. I don't see how Rick Barry isn't better or at least as good as Erving:

So let me emphasize a particular thing here:

I don't think I've ever heard anyone who was watching the ABA at that time, who had any doubt that prime Erving was better than Barry (who was in-prime in his ABA years).

Presuming you don't disagree with that statement, do you think they were wrong?
(If you disagree with the statement, then by all means, speak to that.)

[Doctor MJ]

Read what I wrote; the bpm and vorp are only for the second half of Barry's career, not counting his best seasons.

But as you listed, Erving's WS are WAY ahead of Barry's too and they don't have the same limitations.

[70sFan]

I like that Barry gets the recognition, I think he iw largely forgotten historically and should be talked more in all-time great offensive players discussions.

With that in mind, Julius was clearly better than him. He peaked higher both in ABA and NBA, he won more, had consistently more success and played more games in both leagues.

The question should be - why do you consider Barry to be on Julius level?

[Doctor MJ]

I like that Barry gets the recognition, I think he iw largely forgotten historically and should be talked more in all-time great offensive players discussions.

With that in mind, Julius was clearly better than him. He peaked higher both in ABA and NBA, he won more, had consistently more success and played more games in both leagues.

The question should be - why do you consider Barry to be on Julius level?

I'll second the positivity toward Barry. I think Barry has a lower profile to modern basketball fans than he deserves.

[70sFan]

I like that Barry gets the recognition, I think he iw largely forgotten historically and should be talked more in all-time great offensive players discussions.

With that in mind, Julius was clearly better than him. He peaked higher both in ABA and NBA, he won more, had consistently more success and played more games in both leagues.

The question should be - why do you consider Barry to be on Julius level?

I'll second the positivity toward Barry. I think Barry has a lower profile to modern basketball fans than he deserves.

I have to make a video about him at some point

[sp6r=underrated]

I like that Barry gets the recognition, I think he iw largely forgotten historically and should be talked more in all-time great offensive players discussions.

With that in mind, Julius was clearly better than him. He peaked higher both in ABA and NBA, he won more, had consistently more success and played more games in both leagues.

The question should be - why do you consider Barry to be on Julius level?

I said this in the Paul thread but players tolerance for dick teammates drops pretty quickly.

Jordan was tolerated because people said if I want to play with a GOAT level guy I'll just suck it up. Even then I think it was harmful. You didn't see top players or ring chasers flock to Chicago nearly as much as we've seen before or after. If he had been only as good as someone like Dirk I think he could have run into immense problems.

I do think we need to recognize that Barry by all accounts is just a dreadful guy in the lockerroom. So he does deserve a higher profile but I'd almost always pick a similar caliber player than Rick if team building despite the fact his game would translate very well to today

[RCM88x]

I'd argue that Erving's more decorated postseason resume is the biggest factor here, in addition to Barry largely being considered an outsider in traditional NBA circles both due to his style but also who he was as a person. It's worth noting that Erving has nearly double the NBA playoff win shares and over double the ABA playoff win shares (also nearly double the number of games played). That is significant I reckon.

But I do think that Erving being the primary and most decorated star of the ABA while Barry best play came right before the merger in an NBA that was transitioning significantly plays a factor here too. It's quite easy to discuss the historical cannon of the NBA without mentioning Barry while ignoring Erving would be quite difficult.

It's true that Barry is probably high up on the list of greats that get forgotten these days, but I don't think him being ranked lower than Erving is some sort of slight on him as a player.

[ronnymac2]

I'm higher on Rick Barry than pretty much anybody on this board and agree he gets underrated.

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

When Barry returned from the ABA - and Barry has talked about this himself - there were clear improvements in skill and decision-making relative to 1967. Barry's NBA peak in 1975 and 1976 is absolutely tremendous and I would say certainly comparable to Erving at his best in the NBA. But Barry's prime form didn't last very long, and I do believe Erving's superior NBA longevity gives him the edge in that league as well.

Now, why do other people - players, coaches, league officials, the media, etc. - take Erving over Barry? Erving's game was iconic and exciting. He was a draw, brother brother. Seriously, a pro league absorbed another pro league in 1976 just to get Julius Erving. People owe their jobs to Dr. J.

And he was a classy, well-spoken man. Moses Malone has said he wanted to win forJulius Erving in 1983. Rick Barry was a mean individual off the court. I don't think anybody has ever had anything nice to say about the man besides he could ball. That matters. Being likable isn't necessary for success and getting your flowers - but it doesn't hurt.

[Proxy]

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

Could you please elaborate on why you believe those last two sentences? This seems quite a bit extreme.

(Apologies if I used the quoting tool wrong)

[Cavsfansince84]

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

Could you please elaborate on why you believe those last two sentences? This seems quite a bit extreme.

(Apologies if I used the quoting tool wrong)

I feel like that's a large degree of hyperbole. I went back and watched two games from the 76 aba finals about a year ago and wasn't as impressed I'd hoped I'd be. Which granted is a limited sample but in the close out game the Nets were down like 15 or 20 pts at half and it was the Nets pg who really took over and scored 20+ points in the second half to lead them to the win. Dr. J was just sort of there tbh.

[ronnymac2]

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

Could you please elaborate on why you believe those last two sentences? This seems quite a bit extreme.

(Apologies if I used the quoting tool wrong)

Denver was the best team in the league by a solid margin (5.45 SRS; next highest was SAS at 3.82, then Erving's Nets at 2.56). They had four All-Stars in Simpson, Issel, Thompson, and defensive standout Bobby Jones, who would be the primary defender on Erving in the Finals.

Denver is an above-average defensive team in the REG SEA, though only slightly. All four All-Stars also made All-ABA teams that season, and Jones made All-Defensive First Team.

Dr. J averaged 37/14/5 on 59% shooting and had some of the most spectacular stat lines in a Finals ever. What makes this all the more impressive is that if there was any doubt that the ABA was in line with the NBA by 1976, it was squashed since Denver with the same core in the 1977 NBA was a 50-win team, finishing second in SRS and first in defensive rating.

Of course there was a bit of hyperbole behind what I said - if LBJ's Cavs had won in 2017, they would have done the impossible. But for THAT era, in THAT league, Erving taking one very good All-Star in Brian Taylor and beating four All-Stars on the best team in the league with the best individual performance in that league's history while being shadowed by a legendary defender in Jones is flat-out special.

[70sFan]

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

Could you please elaborate on why you believe those last two sentences? This seems quite a bit extreme.

(Apologies if I used the quoting tool wrong)

I feel like that's a large degree of hyperbole. I went back and watched two games from the 76 aba finals about a year ago and wasn't as impressed I'd hoped I'd be. Which granted is a limited sample but in the close out game the Nets were down like 15 or 20 pts at half and it was the Nets pg who really took over and scored 20+ points in the second half to lead them to the win. Dr. J was just sort of there tbh.

Weren't you impressed by how Julius took over in game 1, including game winning shot?

As far as I know, no other games are available - other than games 1 and 6.

[DQuinn1575]

That said, I would also take Dr. J. He had a far superior ABA career. Barry was playing great in the weakest, earliest versions of the ABA - Erving dominated the league at its apex. Dr. J's performance in 1976 is perhaps the greatest achievement in North American pro basketball history. It'd be like if LBJ had upped his game even more and taken out the Warriors in 2017 or 2018.

Could you please elaborate on why you believe those last two sentences? This seems quite a bit extreme.

(Apologies if I used the quoting tool wrong)

Denver was the best team in the league by a solid margin (5.45 SRS; next highest was SAS at 3.82, then Erving's Nets at 2.56). They had four All-Stars in Simpson, Issel, Thompson, and defensive standout Bobby Jones, who would be the primary defender on Erving in the Finals.

Denver is an above-average defensive team in the REG SEA, though only slightly. All four All-Stars also made All-ABA teams that season, and Jones made All-Defensive First Team.

Dr. J averaged 37/14/5 on 59% shooting and had some of the most spectacular stat lines in a Finals ever. What makes this all the more impressive is that if there was any doubt that the ABA was in line with the NBA by 1976, it was squashed since Denver with the same core in the 1977 NBA was a 50-win team, finishing second in SRS and first in defensive rating.

Of course there was a bit of hyperbole behind what I said - if LBJ's Cavs had won in 2017, they would have done the impossible. But for THAT era, in THAT league, Erving taking one very good All-Star in Brian Taylor and beating four All-Stars on the best team in the league with the best individual performance in that league's history while being shadowed by a legendary defender in Jones is flat-out special.

Rick Barry winning the NBA title with the roster sweeping the Finals was was a bigger feat than Doctor J winning the ABA title in 1976.
Barry also played very well in the regular season in 1976, and should have gotten more support for any POY voting that year.
His biggest problem was his career goes downhill real fast after 1978.
Doc has about 3 more years in games than Barry, and only 1 past prime year vs 2 for Barry, giving him about 4 seasons worth of value over Barry.
Between 1968-1971 Barry only plays 146 games, losing 2 years off his prime.
And then you get a player everyone liked vs a player hardly anybody liked.

So Barry has some good positives, and I dont think he gets enough credit for 1975, but body of work Doc has a lot longer prime, even if you argue peaks are similar-ish.

[Cavsfansince84]

Weren't you impressed by how Julius took over in game 1, including game winning shot?

As far as I know, no other games are available - other than games 1 and 6.

I'm not sure it was game 1 I watched but it might have been. I don't remember the other game as well as I do game 6.

[70sFan]

Weren't you impressed by how Julius took over in game 1, including game winning shot?

As far as I know, no other games are available - other than games 1 and 6.

I'm not sure it was game 1 I watched but it might have been. I don't remember the other game as well as I do game 6.

It's available on YT, though only the second half exists:

Watch on YouTube

For those who don't have the time to watch full games:

Watch on YouTube

[penbeast0]

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