2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

[Texas Chuck]

Now to follow up with some positives on Warriors, because they are the champs and they absolutely deserve a lot of flowers this year.

I'm leaning towards Myers for EOY
I'm leaning towards Kerr for COY

In fact I'd be surprised if they weren't my ultimate winners though I will admit I could give COY to Spo like every year--I think he's that good.

Curry isn't going to surpass Jokic for me, but I've been reading some compelling arguments and it's possible I move him above Giannis.

Draymond definitely won't win DPOY--I think I've been clear about my feelings here lol, but I do think this guy is the best playoff defensive player maybe since Russell himself. And once again that was on display. I don't think this was quite as good as he's been in the past, but not being as good as the best Draymond doesn't mean you aren't really really good.

And while I don't think there is an award that suits Wiggins, I think he was such a vital piece to this championship run and maybe their 2nd best overall player even over Draymond. I just want to shout him on because I've been a big skeptic of him even back to his draft when I was screaming to take Embiid 1st(that looked really bad for a couple years) and Parker 2nd(and uh yeah) and I scoffed at the notion that Warriors culture would get him to play team basketball.

Andrew Wiggins was great this playoff run. And I want to shout it out.

[The-Power]

But I'm confused here. Gary Payton II not only didn't swing the Dallas series, he didn't even play in it.

Oops, you're right of course. I got that somehow confused.

He played 17 mpg in both the RS and the playoffs and only played in 12 playoff games. I just don't know that he would be anyone's candidate at all if not for being a Warrior.

So, GPII is an interesting case. My initial point was just to say that if a Warrior were to make the ballot, I would have him over OPJ. I stand by that even though OPJ has been a great addition, too.

Now, is he a serious candidate if we look at the entire league? Tough to say. I completely understand your resistance. He's certainly not an obvious candidate by normal criteria. But: on a per-minute basis, he may have affected his team off the bench more than anyone else in the league.

It is truly insane how inserting him into the line-up almost always pays immediate dividends. He's been a plus-minus king for us. +5.9 on/off net rating for the RS ranks 2nd on the entire team behind only Steph Curry (+10.0), and the gap to the 3rd highest number is quite large (OPJ at +1.6 if we include players with at least 900 minutes played). His on-court net rating is actually almost as high as Steph's (+9.8 to +10.1), and 3 points higher than the next.

In the playoffs, GPII's +11.9 on/off net rating ranks 2nd on the team behind Wiggins (+13.2). His on-court net rating is indeed 1st – by far – at a ridiculous +15.0. Essentially, whenever GPII was inserted, the line-ups took off. In both the RS and PS, he also had very impressive boxscore numbers that hint at his efficiency – elite scoring efficiency, many steals, few turnovers, fairly high OREB%.

Consequently, GPII ranks very high in a lot of all-in-one metrics with an on/off component as well. 7th in RAPTOR (+6.0), 49th in LEBRON (+1.9), 26th in RAPM (+2.05).

So with him, the question becomes: how do we rate him as an overall player when he had elite (!) impact off the bench all throughout the season, but did so in a perfect role, in line-ups he works well in conceptually, and in relatively few MPG compared to your normal candidates? It's difficult and I won't pretend to know the answer here. But I do know that the 6MOY field looks pretty pedestrian, so I at least see him as worthy to think about – regardless of where you ultimately land on him.

[Texas Chuck]

Now, is he a serious candidate if we look at the entire league? Tough to say. I completely understand your resistance. He's certainly not an obvious candidate by normal criteria. But: on a per-minute basis, he may have affected his team off the bench more than anyone else in the league.

The best comp I can come up with, and some may find this silly since they are such different players, is 86 Bill Walton who if I'm not mistaken did win 6MOY that year. Another low minute guy (sub 20 mpg) but who had enormous impact in those minutes.

And I love the idea of not just giving it to the classic scoring guard off the bench who always wins the official award. Was disappointed Clarkson got it over Ingles for instance when I thought Ingles was a more impactful player for the Jazz.

But the lack of minutes and the missed playoff games definitely make it a hard swallow for me. Though as you point out, I certainly don't have an obvious bench guy I love.

[RCM88x]

GPII only playing 1400 total minutes is a disqualifier for me, where a Tyler Herro played nearly double. Even Kevin Love played 200 minutes more and his team didn't make the playoffs at all.

Sure on a per-minute basis he's probably equal or even better than these guys but in terms of total added value and importance to their team he's a good distance behind I think.

Right now this is where I stand:

POY - Jokic (slight edge over Curry due to just how insane of a carry job this RS was and how truly historic of a season it was, hard to blame him for a quick playoff exit, but he played far better than just about anyone vs GS which is big for me)
OPY - Curry (if he didn't miss time in the RS this would be a pretty easy pick for POY I think, but I'll give it to him here since he's still the best offensive guy in the league in an all around basis)
DOPY - *TBD
ROY - Barnes (had Mobley not gone down at the end of the RS and fell-off so hard when Allen was out I would pick him but Barnes was super solid and a real critical piece to a good Toronto team)
MIP - Garland (going into this season I had no real expectations for him and was concerned he would never really amount to more than a backup PG in the league, but wow, he really became an elite player by the end of the year and could be fighting for All-NBA votes as soon as next year)
6MOY - Herro (normally I hate voting for the high scoring guard here but I think he legitimately deserves it)
COY - Jenkins (I liked Monty slightly more in the RS but consider the playoffs he just gets ahead by a little here, one of the better 2 year turnarounds in recent memory and I think he deserves a lot of credit for his approach)
EOY - Kleiman (Memphis with the sweep here in the non-player awards, again, and incredible 2 year turnaround and really has made some moves/trades that have put them in a great spot going forward with what I think could be the best team in the league the next couple years)

*DPOY is currently really tough for me, there are a ton of guys in the running but all major flaws. Giannis, Gobert, RWilliams, Draymond all are in consideration here. I personally don't think Smart or Bridges are really in this tier despite their success in the media voting, I was just far more impressed with these other guys personally. To me Draymond and Gobert are still at the top in terms of raw defensive load while Giannis and RWilliams both seem to have more impact in their minutes. Gobert was at the top of the list for me at the end of the RS, but his playoffs were short and very rough (perhaps not all due to him though), sort of the same goes for Williams although a weaker RS and a stronger playoffs just due to sample size despite playing injured. Could be off base a bit here but I think I want to go with either Draymond or Giannis just due to the body of work and how impressive their playoffs were to me.

[ShotCreator]

GP2 is a godly outlier in every way. I’m gonna make a statement that I really believe. GS status as the best team will live and die with him, save for Gobert going to PHX or DAL or something.

GP2 for the past two “seasons”, has been a micro-minute MVP. As a opposed to a low stats all-star like 14 Iguodala, 09 Odom etc.

He’s the Nick Collison of the era. But I think he’s even higher level.

OKC’s yearly uptrend of going deeper and deeper in the playoffs yearly from 2010 to 2013 ended with the end of Collison’s prime. He was pretty much unlocking world domination with insane screening and positional defense in the paint and PNR.

Role guys don’t play at 100 forever. Or long at all actually.

Even Iguodala, in retrospect, only gave Gs two years of true elite play for his role. 14 and 15. He had a pretty hard fall off impact wise from 16-19 due to age and injuries.

GS only looked beatable without GP2. If you have a nuclear bomb of two-way impact at-will, an ALL-NBA guard, and DPOY, with elite role players? Hmm. Typing this out has me realizing this could be the second or third best GS team.

[The-Power]

6MOY - Herro (normally I hate voting for the high scoring guard here but I think he legitimately deserves it)

You're not at all concerned about the next incredibly rough postseason drop-off he experienced?

[RCM88x]

6MOY - Herro (normally I hate voting for the high scoring guard here but I think he legitimately deserves it)

You're not at all concerned about the next incredibly rough postseason drop-off he experienced?

I think he was playing hurt, was he not? I don't think any of the other contenders had particularly strong playoffs either. Idk its really hard to find a guy out of this group who had a good playoff run and also a great RS. This award is kind of a joke to me though, is very abstract and basically awards guys who are good but can't be too good at the same time, because if they we're they'd be starting and playing big minutes.

I give it to Herro because his RS was genuinely very good and he played a big role on getting that team to the 1st seed despite a lot of injuries and missed time. To me that's more impressive than being the 8th-9th guy in the rotation no matter the impact.

But honestly it's not an award I feel good about, just that in the spirit and historical trend of the awards he fits the bill.

[The-Power]

I think he was playing hurt, was he not?

Haven't heard anything about an injury until he missed his first game in the ECF but someone who followed the Heat more closely may inform us. Tough to say when his issues started but I don't think he should be getting a pass for what has been an overall awful postseason (not just ‘not great’).

But yeah, perhaps his RS was enough to still keep him on top of the list as none of the other competitors have had truly amazing season. Still, I'd feel at least somewhat uncomfortable voting for him at #1 after seeing him struggle so much in the playoffs and actively hurting his team.

[Doctor MJ]

DPOY - I'm on record with this as a particularly brutal year for this award. Guys on my mind are Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, Bam & all the key Celtics.

I'll say that I'd lean Draymond for the top spot at this point. We saw how good he was to start the year and end the year. To me he remains the gold standard for versatile defense, and with his team winning the chip, it's hard for me to really care about the time missed to injury all that much.

Good list. I'd add Jackson Jr. to it. Only other player on my shortlist was Mikal but I think he's rather an HM. Similar to Wiggins who was better in the POs but worse in the RS. I am currently torn between Draymond and Gobert for the top spot, and the third spot is wide open. Giannis, Bam, Smart, Williams and Jackson Jr. are my main contenders. The Celtics group is interesting because I think Williams has been their most impactful defender on the court, but I'm unsure how to evaluate Smart's role in leading this defense vocally and in terms of general leadership on and off the court. Williams was hugely impactful but how much of that was allowed by the other Celtics being so good and versatile defensively that they allowed him to play in that one role he is so devastating at, and how would we evaluate that?

JJJ makes sense as a candidate too. The fact that fouls keep him from playing starter-level minutes though hurts him significantly right now. If he can get passed those issues, sky's the limit.

Re: Williams. So, with all said and done this season what I'd say is that I'm totally with everyone who thinks that Williams is the great defensive talent on the Celtics...but he just missed too much important stuff in the season, and the Celtic D was so good in the playoffs in that time without him, and so to me he's definitely not the top Celtic candidate.

And yeah, that ends up with me tending to circle back to Smart who all involved agree is the leader and coach-on-floor of that team defense.

And of course, that leads us into how to compare Smart with non-Celtic candidates who look more like DPOY candidates, which I struggle to find a satisfactory resolution on.

ROY - Barnes, Mobley & Cunningham are the obvious big 3. Herb Jones would the other guy on my mind.

My top 3 as well with Barnes edging out Mobley, and then a bit of a gap for #3 (Cade). I'm open to considering Herb as well, and would also throw in the name Franz Wagner – he had a great Rookie season and made an impact. I can see having him in over Cade, it's certainly up for debate. The fact that Mobley and Barnes were important contributors on winning teams matters enough to me to have them #1 and #2, though.

Glad you brought up Franz!

I'm still on debate between Barnes & Mobley incidentally. A question that matters to me:

Who would you rather have going forward, Barnes or Mobley? Why?

Agreed with the playoffs point. That's key – if you can give your team a boost off the bench in the playoffs, that matters a lot and can swing series. Still not sure who I'd vote for here. Since you mention OPJ: I actually think GPII has a better case. He was a key swing factor in [edit: the last] series (Dallas and Boston). He has that special ability to come in and almost always make an impact. +11.9 on/off net rating in the playoffs was not a fluke, although of course helped by line-up combinations and controlled playing time.

Very interesting.

I do feel that what Payton showed us this year is worthy of continued appreciation so I like that he's being brought up here.

But my argument against him is actually part of the argument I used against Porter:

Not playing enough to be optimal for 6MOY.

With Porter merely getting 7th Man minutes, tough to compete with guys who are actually Top 5 in minutes for their team, and with Payton being used by GS as the 8th Man, same applies to him.

Something that is worth considering though, as I ponder Payton:

One of the arguments made against the hype for someone like Payton when considering All-D accolades, is that because he plays in more limited minutes, he can play with a greater intensity that makes him more valuable per minute.

Whether the limited minutes is what Payton needs or not, if he's valuable enough in those minutes, he's going to be more valuable than a lot of guys playing X% more minutes.

If one concludes that Payton, despite playing only 17 MPG, was more valuable than all other players who are eligible for 6MOY, a vote for him makes sense. I hadn't seriously been considering this, but I would be interested to here arguments.

So, I'm not sure if I'm biased here but I would have Kerr in a tier by himself. Having watched him closely, he was been absolutely magnificent at making adjustments in the playoffs, both during and between games – from line-up changes, to defensive strategies, to offensive tweaks to his favorite approach. He also found perfect roles for GPII, Wiggins and some others. This is on top of his usual impact on team chemistry (keeping everyone engaged), and him handling player relationships well (integrating Klay, keeping Poole engaged despite being in and out of line-ups, finding minutes even for the end-of-bench players and Rookies). He also deserves huge props for hiring elite assistants that challenge him – especially regarding Atkinson, it was Kerr who mentioned many times that he wanted to have someone in the room who challenges him and thinks differently, and by all accounts our assistants were important to our season (as evidenced by all the interest they sparked in HC searches). Can't praise him enough for his willingness to hire the best people, be challenged, and happily share all the credit with his staff.

Well, you won't get any argument from me.

[Doctor MJ]

6MOY - Herro (normally I hate voting for the high scoring guard here but I think he legitimately deserves it)

You're not at all concerned about the next incredibly rough postseason drop-off he experienced?

I think he was playing hurt, was he not? I don't think any of the other contenders had particularly strong playoffs either. Idk its really hard to find a guy out of this group who had a good playoff run and also a great RS. This award is kind of a joke to me though, is very abstract and basically awards guys who are good but can't be too good at the same time, because if they we're they'd be starting and playing big minutes.

I give it to Herro because his RS was genuinely very good and he played a big role on getting that team to the 1st seed despite a lot of injuries and missed time. To me that's more impressive than being the 8th-9th guy in the rotation no matter the impact.

But honestly it's not an award I feel good about, just that in the spirit and historical trend of the awards he fits the bill.

So first thing: It is particularly tough to think through the award this year.

Second: I'm glad you talked about the meaning of the award.

To me the spirit of the award is largely about star staggering - and about rewarding stars who embrace not having their name called out as starters. So if you see a guy "leads the second unit" and who is one of the 5 main big minutes guys (and thus ahead starters), that's what the award is intended to recognize

It's understandable then that this tends to go to scorers, though to me it's important that I remove this as a bias. I tend to look for big minutes guys with signs of impact in a reasonable basketball context. (That last part applies when you're in a situation where a team is bad because their main lineup is flat out bad. I don't think teams who struggle in part because they are choosing to play through players who aren't their best players should be earning 6th Man accolades.)

In terms of great playoff run and great RS:

I'd agree no one can really claim that this year, and that's what makes this conversation more interesting.

I will say though that of the guys who got strong consideration for 6MOY this year in the regular season, others looked better than Herro in the playoffs, if only in the first round.

I'm thinking of Clarkson here first, but then also Bogdan.

Before I exit, I do want to give a shout out to Grant Williams here. Not a traditional "6th Man", just the 6th best player on an extremely strong team, and on a team succeeding with defense, Williams played a big, and widely-praised, role early in the playoffs helping the Celtics advance.

[Doctor MJ]

Winning bias is one hell of a drug.

I think Curry is top 5 but I feel like he's clearly below Jokic Giannis, and Embiid. Those guys had much better regular seasons than Curry did. I think he right there with Tatum and Donicic if we just used the regular season but postseason wise I'll take him over both

Curry while great in the first month in the regular season, where he was the favorite to win MVP had a shooting slump right there after, fell off the MVP conversation completely had one of the worst shooting seasons of his prime. I just don't think he done enough to put him number 1 or even top 3 if we're considering the season as a whole

What about his superior on-off numbers in the RS compared to Giannis/Embiid?

And didn't you find Embiid's playoffs disappointing?

why just on-off
Giannis and Embiid has Curry beat in EPM, BPM, LEBRON and RAPTOR

Eh, you skipped a big step here.

If you want a stat that focuses on +/- data while adjusting and normalizing for the flaws that show up in raw analysis, you look for RAPM.

By nbashotcharts, Curry has the edge in RAPM over Giannis & Embiid. Maybe someone has another RAPM that says something otherwise, and they should post if they do, but just based on the stats Eddy brought up, the stats you brought up, and the stats I brought up, there is a clear dividing line:

If purely based on +/- data: Curry
If include box score: Giannis & Embiid

[Doctor MJ]

I feel like a bad person because I feel like I'm constantly pushing back against Warrior hype in this thread. But I also feel like I have to because of the overwhelming praise for all things Warriors.

I'm sorry you feel like this Chuck. That stinks.

[Texas Chuck]

I feel like a bad person because I feel like I'm constantly pushing back against Warrior hype in this thread. But I also feel like I have to because of the overwhelming praise for all things Warriors.

I'm sorry you feel like this Chuck. That stinks.

LOL. Don't feel bad for me Doc. It's self-inflicted. Nobody here is making me feel that way. I feel like my perspective is being respected even as others have a different take.

I just feel guilty that most of my Warriors-related comments feel negative when I really feel quite high on the Warriors myself--just not as high, and I don't feel like the Warriors have saved, solved, perfected basketball like some others keep intimating.

[jalengreen]

A Since you mention OPJ: I actually think GPII has a better case. He was a key swing factor in multiple series (Dallas and Boston). He has that special ability to come in and almost always make an impact. +11.9 on/off net rating in the playoffs was not a fluke, although of course helped by line-up combinations and controlled playing time.
.

Right now I think we are going to see multiple ballots that have a Warrior at the top of basically every award save MIP, and some may even try and squeeze Wiggins or Payton on there and ROY where there is no candidate at all.

Which makes sense in that they are the champions. Typically that means you team was well-constructed(EOY), well-coached(COY), you have one of the best players(POY) who are good at one end or the other (OPOY and DPOY), get help off the bench(6MOY) and rarely lean on rookies. I'm certainly going to have a number of Warriors high on my ballots.

But I'm confused here. Gary Payton II not only didn't swing the Dallas series, he didn't even play in it.

He played 17 mpg in both the RS and the playoffs and only played in 12 playoff games. I just don't know that he would be anyone's candidate at all if not for being a Warrior.

I feel like a bad person because I feel like I'm constantly pushing back against Warrior hype in this thread. But I also feel like I have to because of the overwhelming praise for all things Warriors.

It's funny because there's a ton of ballots where you could put a Warriors guy up at #1, but there's also a damn good case to not have any of them there IMO. That might be what my ballot ends up looking like - a lot of GSW but not in the #1 spot. DPOY/COY are the biggest possibilities for Dray/Kerr for me at this point probably

[Doctor MJ]

I'm leaning towards Myers for EOY

So, this is fun because I think I'm more skeptical than you on this one.

While I think in retrospect, his Wiggins acquisition warrants EOY consideration, I'm not sure that he did anything this year that I see as that significant in what it says about him as a GM.

The two big acquisitions this year, I believe, were Porter & Payton.

In the case of Porter, while getting him was a great move, it's hard to imagine that it was Myers that made Porter want to come play for the Warriors. This was the classic case of a more prominent player who already made a ton of money, taking very little money to come play for a great team.

In the case of Payton, he was just one of the journeymen trying to make the team - and make any team for that matter. To me then much of the credit for his emergence has to come once again from those closer to the court.

I do think with Myer some credit needs to be given for the panic moves he didn't make, and I could see that going a long way perhaps, but he feels like a case where he's having an "EOY-type moment of recognition", but the biggest decisions he made to get here didn't come in the last 12 months.

Draymond definitely won't win DPOY--I think I've been clear about my feelings here lol, but I do think this guy is the best playoff defensive player maybe since Russell himself. And once again that was on display. I don't think this was quite as good as he's been in the past, but not being as good as the best Draymond doesn't mean you aren't really really good.

Interesting. See, all of this stuff is why it's so hard for me NOT to vote for Draymond.

I know you fleshed out Gobert's case - and I thought you did a great job of talking Gobert up - but what's your case specifically for Gobert over Draymond?

And while I don't think there is an award that suits Wiggins, I think he was such a vital piece to this championship run and maybe their 2nd best overall player even over Draymond. I just want to shout him on because I've been a big skeptic of him even back to his draft when I was screaming to take Embiid 1st(that looked really bad for a couple years) and Parker 2nd(and uh yeah) and I scoffed at the notion that Warriors culture would get him to play team basketball.

Andrew Wiggins was great this playoff run. And I want to shout it out.

Preach it Chuck! I'm in such a similar boat because I've been so, so down on Wiggins for so long - was among the crew here who voted for Noel over Wiggins for ROY - but damn, Wiggins is really good at what he's doing now.

[eminence]

Hard to give much praise to the FO on Payton given they waived him and any team in the league could've claimed him just prior to the season.

Ton of credit to Payton for working his ass off though.

[Outside]

Regarding EOY, it's an award for this season, but many times it takes longer for the results to come to fruition. Myers and the acquisition of Wiggins is a good example of that. It would have been sketchy to give him EOY credit for that move at the time considering that the Warriors had the worst record in the league that season, but now that it has paid off (and may continue to pay off even more since he got the draft pick that became Kuminga in that deal), the time to give credit for it in EOY voting has passed. Just the nature of this particular beast.

I think Myers is one of the best GMs out there, but I can't see putting him on my ballot based on this season alone. Others have made more impactful moves in that time.

[dontcalltimeout]

Man, as much as my head and my heart say that Jokic had -- not just the best season -- but a special season... isn't the lingering taste of the year that Steph Curry had it in him to do it again? Isn't the last thought, after it looked like there was a chance that Boston was absolutely dominant, "oh, yeah, did you forget about this guy called Stephen Curry and how impossible he is to guard?"

While still in the aftermath, it feels like that comeback is the story.

(But trying not to be caught up in the moment: if we end up speaking Jokic '22 into rarefied air, that is a thing worthy in and of itself.)

[Doctor MJ]

EOY - Kleiman (Memphis with the sweep here in the non-player awards, again, and incredible 2 year turnaround and really has made some moves/trades that have put them in a great spot going forward with what I think could be the best team in the league the next couple years)

Okay, I alluded to this in a post yesterday and now seems like the time to discuss it:

Kleiman won the EOY this year, and thus I think by definition we need to consider him a reasonable vote and a strong candidate...

but what did he actually do this year?

Which points to the more pointed question:

Are official NBA Executive of the Year Award voters just completely dismissing the "Year" aspect of the award they are voting for?

Along with:

Whatever we conclude they do, what do we think we should do?

[Doctor MJ]

Man, as much as my head and my heart say that Jokic had -- not just the best season -- but a special season... isn't the lingering taste of the year that Steph Curry had it in him to do it again? Isn't the last thought, after it looked like there was a chance that Boston was absolutely dominant, "oh, yeah, did you forget about this guy called Stephen Curry and how impossible he is to guard?"

While still in the aftermath, it feels like that comeback is the story.

(But trying not to be caught up in the moment: if we end up speaking Jokic '22 into rarefied air, that is a thing worthy in and of itself.)

So, I think that the thing you're putting a finger on is this:

When we look to compare the achievements of players who just demonstrated two different successes to add to their two different pre-existing careers, we find ourselves essentially working with things that call for two different rubrics.

We don't want to hold it against Jokic that his teammates were bad...but we can't ignore what Curry did in the finals and how much it meant to his legacy that he performed that well specifically in that round.

How do we square that circle?