I think Myers is one of the best GMs out there, but I can't see putting him on my ballot based on this season alone. Others have made more impactful moves in that time.
Here's why I'm leaning towards him---the "easy" move would have been to do what I was saying he should do--trade Wiseman, trade the lottery picks and go get another veteran ready to win now with Steph and Draymond. But he had a good sense that his core was still championship caliber if he could shore up some of the supporting cast.
His additions were minor, but all worked out well, Payton and Porter obviously more significantly that Bjelica. He trusted that Poole was ready for a vital role.
He didn't make a move just to make a move or because it was expected. And now he has three young players that he can hope can start contributing to help his aging veterans get to the playoffs with more left in the tank.
I don't know that we should only give the award to the guy who made the splashy move. He got his team the pieces to win a title and kept some assets to move forward with. Helped of course a great deal by Lacob's willingness to foot an enormous bill.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
I think Myers is one of the best GMs out there, but I can't see putting him on my ballot based on this season alone. Others have made more impactful moves in that time.
Here's why I'm leaning towards him---the "easy" move would have been to do what I was saying he should do--trade Wiseman, trade the lottery picks and go get another veteran ready to win now with Steph and Draymond. But he had a good sense that his core was still championship caliber if he could shore up some of the supporting cast.
His additions were minor, but all worked out well, Payton and Porter obviously more significantly that Bjelica. He trusted that Poole was ready for a vital role.
He didn't make a move just to make a move or because it was expected. And now he has three young players that he can hope can start contributing to help his aging veterans get to the playoffs with more left in the tank.
I don't know that we should only give the award to the guy who made the splashy move. He got his team the pieces to win a title and kept some assets to move forward with. Helped of course a great deal by Lacob's willingness to foot an enormous bill.
Trust me, I get all that, especially considering how many posters on the Warriors board were clamoring to move Wiseman and other assets for a vet, especially a big, but it's hard for me to justify giving enough credit for that to put Myers in the top three for EOY when so many other GMs made good moves.
I don't even think I'm going to put Zach Kleinman on the ballot since his only big move was trading Valanciunas (17.1 pts, 12.5 reb) for Steven Adams (6.9 pts, 10.0 reb) and Zaire Williams (8.1 pts, 2.1 reb). I like Adams, and he's a better passer and defender, but I don't see him as a huge upgrade at that position. It seems that the primary drivers behind the Grizzlies rise were the improvement of Ja and Bane, JJJ coming back healthy and starting to show his potential, and the overall maturing of the team -- in other words, not making any moves. Kleinman traded away Grayson Allen, a useful player, for a trade exception they have yet to use. What am I missing in the argument for him?
I'll look at the various arguments, but off the top of my head, I'm looking at Riley (Miami), Harrison (Dallas), and Karnisovas (Chicago) as the front-runners with consideration for Altman (Cleveland) and Griffin (New Orleans). Standing pat has value if it's the right move, but it's hard to take that over what these other guys did.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
dontcalltimeout wrote:Man, as much as my head and my heart say that Jokic had -- not just the best season -- but a special season... isn't the lingering taste of the year that Steph Curry had it in him to do it again? Isn't the last thought, after it looked like there was a chance that Boston was absolutely dominant, "oh, yeah, did you forget about this guy called Stephen Curry and how impossible he is to guard?"
While still in the aftermath, it feels like that comeback is the story.
(But trying not to be caught up in the moment: if we end up speaking Jokic '22 into rarefied air, that is a thing worthy in and of itself.)
So, I think that the thing you're putting a finger on is this:
When we look to compare the achievements of players who just demonstrated two different successes to add to their two different pre-existing careers, we find ourselves essentially working with things that call for two different rubrics.
We don't want to hold it against Jokic that his teammates were bad...but we can't ignore what Curry did in the finals and how much it meant to his legacy that he performed that well specifically in that round.
How do we square that circle?
Personally, I don't think any impact on Curry's legacy should be part of the equation for POY. That's for the top 100 project.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
dontcalltimeout wrote:Man, as much as my head and my heart say that Jokic had -- not just the best season -- but a special season... isn't the lingering taste of the year that Steph Curry had it in him to do it again? Isn't the last thought, after it looked like there was a chance that Boston was absolutely dominant, "oh, yeah, did you forget about this guy called Stephen Curry and how impossible he is to guard?"
While still in the aftermath, it feels like that comeback is the story.
(But trying not to be caught up in the moment: if we end up speaking Jokic '22 into rarefied air, that is a thing worthy in and of itself.)
So, I think that the thing you're putting a finger on is this:
When we look to compare the achievements of players who just demonstrated two different successes to add to their two different pre-existing careers, we find ourselves essentially working with things that call for two different rubrics.
We don't want to hold it against Jokic that his teammates were bad...but we can't ignore what Curry did in the finals and how much it meant to his legacy that he performed that well specifically in that round.
How do we square that circle?
Right, and the two rubrics feel incommensurate enough that one needs to actually stake a claim for what is most important when calling someone POY.
I'll also add this, Jokic's season would be easier to dismiss for me if it were merely one of the great floor-raising seasons with a style of play that I didn't think would easily translate to an insane ceiling as well. I'm not very impressed with the Westbrook 2017-type seasons (in part because we have seen its very, very clear playoff limitations).
Jokic upped his own scoring/playmaking load AND had his most efficient year ever AND played the best defense of his career AND he held the ball for less time than any other offensive initiator, including secondary guys like Brandon Ingram, Monte Morris, Anthony Edwards, and Zach Lavine. He was not even in the top 90 players in seconds per touch in the playoffs.
Is it a stretch to call it the most scalable carry job in recent memory?
Really helpful post to use as an outline for my own thoughts.
Doctor MJ wrote: OPOY - I find myself gravitating to Jokic, Curry & Doncic. When looking to consider someone from the East, KD & Butler come to mind.
Big debate for me is between Jokic & Curry. Jokic clearly has the regular season edge, but Curry felt impossible to solve for against all comers (and no, "solving for" doesn't mean putting enough pressure on him that his teammates get-off).
After the regular season, I had Jokic, Young, Curry, James, Embiid, Doncic, Durant, Paul, KAT, and Giannis, in some order. I do think Trae is getting buried a little bit too much for a single series; he showed in 2021 that he's plenty good at solving defenses.
Still, I come away with the same list in the end - Jokic, Curry, Doncic. Simply put, I value the guys who are really good at using their own gravity and scoring prowess to give their offense the best looks. The top three guys feel like they are among those whose own ability to generate advantages is incredibly resilient, plus have the vision, passing, and ability to manipulate defenses that others lack.
DPOY - I'm on record with this as a particularly brutal year for this award. Guys on my mind are Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, Bam & all the key Celtics.
I'll say that I'd lean Draymond for the top spot at this point. We saw how good he was to start the year and end the year. To me he remains the gold standard for versatile defense, and with his team winning the chip, it's hard for me to really care about the time missed to injury all that much.
The toughest award. I think the two most useful playoff defenders are Draymond and Giannis. At times I felt like Draymond looked more vulnerable than he ever has against size and length, but he brought it enough, I think. Giannis's ability to swallow space and weakside protection is stronger than Draymond, but Draymond is still better at the little things: knowing exactly when to help or double, getting to the spot to stop a play before the offense even realizes it, etc. I'm really leaning against any Celtic right now, it just feels like too much of a democracy over there. Tatum probably had the best chance if he had kept the pace of the first two playoff series.
Should Jrue Holiday be a guy we look at? RAPM loves him, and every time I start to think Holiday is a little overrated, he just looks so impactful in the playoffs; has the best combination of strength/positioning and screen navigation IMO.
Also just to give a little shout-out to Bam. Had the best on-court DRTG of any of the key Miami guys in the playoffs and in the regular season. Miami is full of guys that know what they're doing out there, but none of it works without Bam does, which is be the most switchable guy in the league. It was plain funny to see really scary offensive players just refuse to even look at the basket when Bam got switched onto them.
ROY - Barnes, Mobley & Cunningham are the obvious big 3. Herb Jones would the other guy on my mind.
I'm thinking Mobley, Barnes, and Jones. I get going for upside here, but sometimes the best proof of concept is a guy doing it on the court and these guys were legitimately good NBA players for non-tanking teams.
This is Garland Garland Garland for me. I like Bridges (Mikal) a lot, but when it came down to it, it seemed like there was not as much improvement as we might have thought. Miles is a guy who might win it next year. Maxey become a legitimately fantastic three point shooter is huge. Poole's rise from unplayable to this is worthy of acclaim.
Wiggins is not the type of guy I normally would think for this award, but this might actually be the best place to reward his playoff performance. This guy had the highest plus-minus of any Warrior, okayed nearly 40 MPG in the finals (more than even Curry and Klay), and was a physical force out there.
6MOY - Guys to consider? Well, in the regular season award it went Herro, Love, Johnson, Clarkson, Kennard, Bogdanovic
Another tough one. Herro was bad in the playoffs but it might still be him?
Is Dinwiddie eligible for this (looking only at his Dallas tenure)?
COY - Some names and background:
Bickerstaff (CLE) - team was unexpected quite good before injuries building around unorthodox players Donovan (CHI) - seemed to get the team humming Finch (MIN) - seemed to make progress with the team Green (NOP) - noteworthy turnaround he led this year in what seemed like a lost season Jenkins (MEM) - one of the most remarkable player development jobs I can recall seeing (JJJ, Morant, Bane) Kerr (GSW) - has approached his job completely differently than any other coach, and is back on top again Kidd (DAL) - team seemed to take a step forward this year Malone (DEN) - when we credit Jokic with keeping the team afloat, I do think the coach deserves some credit too Nurse (TOR) - highly respected basketball brain, team felt up and coming again Spoelstra (MIA) - another superb year Williams (PHX) - a dream regular season Udoka (BOS) - the most remarkable turnaround I think I've ever watched unfold
I may simply go Kerr and Udoka for the top two spots. For the third, perhaps Spo. The ten most important Miami guys missed 236 games combined in the regular season and still pulled out the one seed? He made a lot out of not that much spacing, had another great defensive team, and another tough, tough Miami Heat run.
I also really like Jenkins and hope he'll have more chances to win this with a Memphis ascension.
Doctor MJ wrote:I'm still on debate between Barnes & Mobley incidentally. A question that matters to me:
Who would you rather have going forward, Barnes or Mobley? Why?
I wouldn't factor it in because I think they are in the same tier of prospects. If I had to pick one I'd probably still have Mobley slightly ahead because he feels easier to plug and play on any team whereas Barnes needs a more sophisticated team construction to make his impact. I also believe if neither improves much as a shooter, Mobley would struggle less to make an impact due to his superior off-ball and defensive ability. I'd probably still have Barnes ahead of Mobley for ROY.
I'm hitting a bit of a wall on 6MOY. Some of the most impactful guys coming off the bench in the play-offs like Poole, Dinwiddie and Derrick White started over half the games in the regular season. Are they eligible or is that up to us?
RCM88x wrote:EOY - Kleiman (Memphis with the sweep here in the non-player awards, again, and incredible 2 year turnaround and really has made some moves/trades that have put them in a great spot going forward with what I think could be the best team in the league the next couple years)
Okay, I alluded to this in a post yesterday and now seems like the time to discuss it:
Kleiman won the EOY this year, and thus I think by definition we need to consider him a reasonable vote and a strong candidate...
but what did he actually do this year?
Which points to the more pointed question:
Are official NBA Executive of the Year Award voters just completely dismissing the "Year" aspect of the award they are voting for?
Along with:
Whatever we conclude they do, what do we think we should do?
I felt like the moves he made over the summer with Allen, Bledsoe and Val, and then getting back Adams. Not amazing sexy moves but really cleaned up the roster/books and opened the door for younger and better players. I feel like a lot of the time with these young up and coming teams it seems like there's always a need to add older guys when often times subtracting then opened the door and improves the core of the team. But it's always hard to guage guys on a 1 year cycle as often times these moves take a few years to truly manifest their value, so I can totally see the argument for a guy who made a bigger move this year or has had more a track record.
LookToShoot wrote:Melo is the only player that makes the Rockets watchable for the basketball purists. Otherwise it would just be three point shots and pick n roll.
The-Power wrote:Awesome write-up, Doc, and I'll take the opportunity to put out my initial thoughts around your overview.
Doctor MJ wrote:So, some short-list type thoughts:
Thank you both for doing this work. I'm going to use your posts as a starting point for working my way through the choices since, at a glance, they line up well with who I had in mind for most categories.
Feel like people likely have their head around this for themselves so I think I'll refrain from making cases for guys here.
Agreed. To me, the order currently is something like this:
Jokic Curry ------ Giannis ------ Tatum Luka Embiid Butler
This is also where I'm at, including the tiers. For the top spot, I'm leaning toward Jokic. I value the PS very highly, and that's what propelled Giannis over Jokic for me last year, but Curry's RS is significantly further behind Jokic this year compared to where Giannis was last year. Curry's PS was outstanding, and his finals was elite, and while Jokic had a good first round against the Warriors, he was uniquely positioned to do well against their lack of size (even more than Embiid, IMO), they didn't commit to shutting him down but instead focused on not letting others get undue opportunities. They also exposed Jokic in space repeatedly, which was smart because he's not a good defender there and it also wore him down.
But in the end, I'm leaning toward Jokic because his RS was so outstanding and Curry had too much of a deficit there to make up, even as good as he was in the PS.
To me, Giannis was clearly better than the next group when looking at his combination of RS, offense and defense, and PS.
I have Embiid in the fourth spot. He’s really productive, but I see slippage in his defensive impact. He’s impactful, but not as consistently. He had injuries to deal with in the PS, but how many years does this have to happen before it just becomes who he is?
It’s really close, but I have Tatum for the fifth spot. He was solid all RS, and also in the PS until the finals. He’s being asked to do everything – initiate, score, rebound, defend, and he did it all at a high level until it became too much to ask against the Warriors. If he were allowed to score, rebound, defend, and be a secondary initiator, I think he’d excel at every level. Not everyone can be LeBron. Most primary score-initiate combo players are poor defenders – Luka, Trae, Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Harden and Westbrook in prior years. How many players are really good at all the areas Tatum was asked to be good in? The reality is that Tatum was good enough until the finals.
Luka would be next, but he gets downgraded for being heavy and out of shape and taking months to come around (I can even make the argument that he never fully did). He’s a great talent, but he’s awful defensively.
Butler’s PS was exceptional, but the RS was merely good. He only played 57 games. If he had qualified, he would’ve been 19th in scoring average. His three-point percentage was putrid (23.3%). He showed up in the PS, but that’s a significant RS deficit to overcome.
One other note is the lack of someone from the Suns here, but I can’t drum up a case for Booker or Paul because of the team’s performance when the numbers aren’t there.
OPOY
Spoiler:
OPOY - I find myself gravitating to Jokic, Curry & Doncic. When looking to consider someone from the East, KD & Butler come to mind.
Big debate for me is between Jokic & Curry. Jokic clearly has the regular season edge, but Curry felt impossible to solve for against all comers (and no, "solving for" doesn't mean putting enough pressure on him that his teammates get-off).
Agreed. I would have Jokic #1, Curry #2 and probably Doncic #3. How do we feel about Ja Morant? Lots of talk that his team has performed better without him but that's mostly because his defense has been putrid and drags the team down. Trae had an argument after the RS but he's one of the few that are actively hurt by the POs because it did look like he just couldn't figure out that defense at all and his impact took a nosedive, so that raises a lot of concerns and I can't possibly have him on the OPOY ballot this year.
This is where I’m winding up – Jokic, Curry, then Luka – but I want to give consideration to Embiid and Giannis here, especially Embiid. The top players in O-LEBRON:
Jokic Trae Giannis Embiid Curry Ja Tatum Durant Luka
Trae was going to be on my list until that horrendous showing in the PS. I just can’t include him here when he was absolutely shut down by Miami. That wasn’t just a glitch.
It bothers me somewhat that Luka is down the O-LEBRON list, but that is for RS only, and his PS, despite missing games, was outstanding offensively. The players below Trae are kind of bunched up, so I can justify elevating Luka.
My other thought is that I feel like we’re at a point that we take Giannis for granted. Should he be higher?
DPOY
Spoiler:
DPOY - I'm on record with this as a particularly brutal year for this award. Guys on my mind are Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, Bam & all the key Celtics.
I'll say that I'd lean Draymond for the top spot at this point. We saw how good he was to start the year and end the year. To me he remains the gold standard for versatile defense, and with his team winning the chip, it's hard for me to really care about the time missed to injury all that much.
Good list. I'd add Jackson Jr. to it. Only other player on my shortlist was Mikal but I think he's rather an HM. Similar to Wiggins who was better in the POs but worse in the RS. I am currently torn between Draymond and Gobert for the top spot, and the third spot is wide open. Giannis, Bam, Smart, Williams and Jackson Jr. are my main contenders. The Celtics group is interesting because I think Williams has been their most impactful defender on the court, but I'm unsure how to evaluate Smart's role in leading this defense vocally and in terms of general leadership on and off the court. Williams was hugely impactful but how much of that was allowed by the other Celtics being so good and versatile defensively that they allowed him to play in that one role he is so devastating at, and how would we evaluate that?
I tentatively have my order this way:
Gobert Draymond Giannis
Gobert is a known quantity. Draymond would’ve been in the top slot for me except for missed time in the RS. His PS was really good, even the finals when he was getting labeled as washed. Something was in his head, but he played really well defensively in most of the games.
I can’t bring myself to include Marcus Smart. I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate flopping, and it is a predominant part of his defensive game. Like Harden and drawing fouls, you may get away with much of it in the RS, but in the PS, it’s a different story, and it hurt his team in the finals. Man up, stay up, and play D instead of launching yourself to the ground every time you hit a screen or an offensive player makes contact with you.
Robert Williams was very impressive. He might be fourth for me.
I may change my mind if I saw more Miami games, but Bam seemed inconsistent defensively. Some games, it’s like he wasn’t there.
JJJ was impactful, but he takes himself out of games with fouls.
Part of my problem is that I have trouble trusting any defensive metrics that I’ve seen. Some of them just seem whack.
ROY
Spoiler:
ROY - Barnes, Mobley & Cunningham are the obvious big 3. Herb Jones would the other guy on my mind.
My top 3 as well with Barnes edging out Mobley, and then a bit of a gap for #3 (Cade). I'm open to considering Herb as well, and would also throw in the name Franz Wagner – he had a great Rookie season and made an impact. I can see having him in over Cade, it's certainly up for debate. The fact that Mobley and Barnes were important contributors on winning teams matters enough to me to have them #1 and #2, though.
I’m not very invested in this one, TBH. Looking at the numbers, Barnes and Mobley seem like a toss-up. I saw more of Mobley and am leaning his way. Herb Jones was really good in the series against Phoenix, but his RS isn’t very notable. Cade Cunningham had good production but his efficiency was poor. Franz Wagner’s stats look pretty good, but he gets minus points for being a flopper.
Toughest award for me. I lean towards Garland for his improvement to All-Star territory and a wide open field behind him. I'll have to think about this one a lot more. I'm generally hesitant to reward 2nd year players unless that improvement was really unexpected – but I also don't rule them out either. It's also an open question to me how we evaluate skill improvements versus mental improvements (i.e. ability to play your role better without necessarily acquiring new skills) – the latter may be more impactful, but also more difficult to evaluate as there is a lot of context involved.
My top choices are Garland, Bane, Maxey, and Brunson, probably in that order. I can appreciate Ja’s improvement, but as far as I’m concerned, he was already that guy by the end of last season, which means less improvement from last season to this one.
6MOY
Spoiler:
6MOY - Guys to consider? Well, in the regular season award it went Herro, Love, Johnson, Clarkson, Kennard, Bogdanovic
I also tend to look at the 6th man candidates for the big playoff teams, and that adds Otto Porter & Grant Williams into the mix.
Agreed with the playoffs point. That's key – if you can give your team a boost off the bench in the playoffs, that matters a lot and can swing series. Still not sure who I'd vote for here. Since you mention OPJ: I actually think GPII has a better case. He was a key swing factor in [edit: the last] series (Dallas and Boston). He has that special ability to come in and almost always make an impact. +11.9 on/off net rating in the playoffs was not a fluke, although of course helped by line-up combinations and controlled playing time.
I really don't think there are any awesome candidates this year. I can already feel that no matter who I end up having on my ballot, I'm going to question my choices.
Again, not hugely invested. I’m going with Herro, Love, and Grant Williams.
COY
Spoiler:
COY - Some names and background:
Bickerstaff (CLE) - team was unexpected quite good before injuries building around unorthodox players Donovan (CHI) - seemed to get the team humming Finch (MIN) - seemed to make progress with the team Green (NOP) - noteworthy turnaround he led this year in what seemed like a lost season Jenkins (MEM) - one of the most remarkable player development jobs I can recall seeing (JJJ, Morant, Bane) Kerr (GSW) - has approached his job completely differently than any other coach, and is back on top again Kidd (DAL) - team seemed to take a step forward this year Malone (DEN) - when we credit Jokic with keeping the team afloat, I do think the coach deserves some credit too Nurse (TOR) - highly respected basketball brain, team felt up and coming again Spoelstra (MIA) - another superb year Williams (PHX) - a dream regular season Udoka (BOS) - the most remarkable turnaround I think I've ever watched unfold
So, I'm not sure if I'm biased here but I would have Kerr in a tier by himself. Having watched him closely, he was been absolutely magnificent at making adjustments in the playoffs, both during and between games – from line-up changes, to defensive strategies, to offensive tweaks to his favorite approach. He also found perfect roles for GPII, Wiggins and some others. This is on top of his usual impact on team chemistry (keeping everyone engaged), and him handling player relationships well (integrating Klay, keeping Poole engaged despite being in and out of line-ups, finding minutes even for the end-of-bench players and Rookies). He also deserves huge props for hiring elite assistants that challenge him – especially regarding Atkinson, it was Kerr who mentioned many times that he wanted to have someone in the room who challenges him and thinks differently, and by all accounts our assistants were important to our season (as evidenced by all the interest they sparked in HC searches). Can't praise him enough for his willingness to hire the best people, be challenged, and happily share all the credit with his staff.
I think I'd have Spo #2 tentatively. Just incredible what he did with this roster, he just finds ways to have players contribute beyond their talent level and play superb defense, along with his adjustments in the playoffs. Third spot is open. Udoka, Bickerstaff and Nurse are on my shortlist. Kidd and Jenkins are also good options. Williams is the most difficult case – brilliant team in the RS and that matters, but that playoff exit really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
That’s a solid list, but that’s 12 coaches out of 30. I’ll take a reverse approach and cut it down to a manageable size.
Donovan (CHI) - not his fault that injuries decimated the team, but that’s the way it goes. You’re not going to get sympathy from Mike Malone. Finch (MIN) - got them into the play-in and playoffs, but dear lord what a crappy offense. Right out of the 1990s isolation days. They were good enough at it to be productive, but dayum. Nurse (TOR) - just another really good job. Not good enough to make the cut. Williams (PHX) - the meltdown in the PS left a stain on an outstanding RS. Bickerstaff (CLE) - started really strong, but the reality is that they finished eighth in the East.
Which leaves:
Green (NOP) - they had no business sniffing the PS, especially after an 8-21 start and no Zion, but he integrated McCollum well and got them all to buy into what he was selling. They played really well in the first-round lost to the Suns. Jenkins (MEM) - that is one solid team on both sides of the ball. He put guys in position to excel. Kerr (GSW) - had a tough task dealing with injuries to Draymond and Steph and integrating Klay into an already full rotation. They didn’t really have their group together until the PS. He made so many good moves throughout the playoffs. Kidd (DAL) - I was surprised how well he worked out and the growth he showed as a coach. It’s not easy managing a star like Luka, and he managed to make them into one of the best teams after the Porzingas-Dinwiddie trade. They won 52 games, only one behind the Warriors. Malone (DEN) - no Murray, no MPJ, still 48-34. Spoelstra (MIA) - first in the East, one of the great coaches in the league. Udoka (BOS) - amazing job staying the course and turning losses into wins. Ran into the rookie wall in the finals.
It’s very tough for me to whittle that down to three, but that’s what we have to do, so I’ll go with:
Kerr Kidd Green
EOY
Spoiler:
EOY - some names and background:
Myers (GSW) - Acquired Porter, Payton & Bjelica, drafted Kuminga & Moody Stevens (BOS) - Replaced self with Udoka as coach, acquired Horford, White & Theis Riley (MIA) - Traded for Lowry, signed Tucker, Oladipo, Strus, Vincent Harrison (DAL) - Hired Kidd, traded away Porzingis, received Dinwiddie, signed Bullock Kleiman (MEM) - Won NBA's EOY...Acquired Steven Adams. Apparent disconnect there, worth discussion. Morey (PHI) - Signed Danny Green, traded away Simmons & Curry, received Harden Ujiri (TOR) - Drafted Barnes in surprise move, signed Trent Karnisovas (CHI) - Acquired DeRozan, Ball & Caruso Altman (CLE) - Signed Allen, drafted Mobley (as expected), acquired Markkanen & Levert Griffin (NOP) - Fired Van Gundy, hired Green, let go Lonzo, drafted/discovered Jones & Alvarado, acquired McCollum & Nance Pritchard (IND) - Fired Bjorkgren, hired Carlisle, got Haliburton & assets for Sabonis & Levert Presti (OKC) - Drafted Giddey, got draft assets
I love Stevens here. The willingness to replace himself and hit the nail on the coaching selection deserves huge props. He also had a clear hand in the Celtics playoffs run with White and Horford being key contributors.
Myers deserves praise for his refusal to go all-in for a star and mortgage the future that way, which was the right decision but unpopular with fans around the league – and even many GSW fans wanted an all-in trade. But we won with depth and chemistry, on the back of Curry (offense) and Green (defense) around great fits. But I'm not sure if Myers or Lacob deserve more credit here. Also, choosing Payton II over Bradley was a home run and reportedly went against the preferences of the star players at the time. He also filled out the roster nicely with OPJ and Bjelica, although I'm not sure how much credit should go to him for that.
Ujiri is, as usual, another candidate. Drafting Barnes was not very popular but looks to be the correct choice, and Trent helped them as well. He also kept Siakam (I was a skeptic) and build a very competitive team around him this season. But was this impactful enough for the EOY award?
Griffin had a great draft, he brought in pieces to help the team win, and I also think we may only really appreciate his moves once Zion in back because I think he did a really admirable job to build around him. I'll have to think about his candidacy a bit more but I think he at least deserves consideration.
I also love the shout-out to Pritchard! I love what Indiana has done. It's difficult to compare executives on teams with completely different directions, but to trade Sabonis for Haliburton I think was a marvelous move that will help the team tremendously going forward, and convincing Carlisle was another key achievement.
Tentatively, I think I'd have Stevens #1 with Pritchard and Myers filling out my ballot. But I'm open to considering others as well – it's one of the toughest awards to hand out, imo.
As I mentioned in another post, these are my top choices:
Riley (Miami) - got Lowry, the guy everybody wanted, signed PJ Tucker. Harrison (Dallas) - brought in Kidd as coach, pulled off the Porzingas-Dinwiddie trade that turned them around. Karnisovas (Chicago) - traded for DeRozan, traded for Lonzo, signed Caruso, traded away Markkanen (a win for both Chicago and Cleveland). Altman (Cleveland) - drafted Evan Mobley, traded for Markkenan, traded for Rondo after Rubio got hurt, traded the injured Rubio for Caris Lavert. Griffin (New Orleans) - brought in Green as coach, traded for McCollum without having to give up one of their major pieces.
This is a tough group for me to whittle down to three, let alone choose who should get the top spot.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
dontcalltimeout wrote:Man, as much as my head and my heart say that Jokic had -- not just the best season -- but a special season... isn't the lingering taste of the year that Steph Curry had it in him to do it again? Isn't the last thought, after it looked like there was a chance that Boston was absolutely dominant, "oh, yeah, did you forget about this guy called Stephen Curry and how impossible he is to guard?"
While still in the aftermath, it feels like that comeback is the story.
(But trying not to be caught up in the moment: if we end up speaking Jokic '22 into rarefied air, that is a thing worthy in and of itself.)
So, I think that the thing you're putting a finger on is this:
When we look to compare the achievements of players who just demonstrated two different successes to add to their two different pre-existing careers, we find ourselves essentially working with things that call for two different rubrics.
We don't want to hold it against Jokic that his teammates were bad...but we can't ignore what Curry did in the finals and how much it meant to his legacy that he performed that well specifically in that round.
How do we square that circle?
Personally, I don't think any impact on Curry's legacy should be part of the equation for POY. That's for the top 100 project.
Ooh, I'm glad to hear you drawing a distinction.
I should clarify: While I do understand "legacy" as something that's distinct from yearly achievement, there is still the matter that looking utterly unstoppable against the toughest of playoff defensive competition all through the playoffs achieves something within the context of the year that someone who exits in the first round cannot.
I completely getting siding with Jokic under the belief that you've seen enough from Jokic that you believe he can do his thing against all comers, but that question is a very real question that gets asked about each of these players.
Doctor MJ wrote:I'm still on debate between Barnes & Mobley incidentally. A question that matters to me:
Who would you rather have going forward, Barnes or Mobley? Why?
I wouldn't factor it in because I think they are in the same tier of prospects. If I had to pick one I'd probably still have Mobley slightly ahead because he feels easier to plug and play on any team whereas Barnes needs a more sophisticated team construction to make his impact. I also believe if neither improves much as a shooter, Mobley would struggle less to make an impact due to his superior off-ball and defensive ability. I'd probably still have Barnes ahead of Mobley for ROY.
Reasoning makes sense but raises another question:
Despite the fact that Barnes got picked only a spot after Mobley, my impression was that he was very much seen as a lower tier of prospect. Did you agree with that assessment then? Did Barnes do stuff this year that led you to lift him up to the same tier as Mobley...or were you always beemed up by Scottie?
Dutchball97 wrote:I'm hitting a bit of a wall on 6MOY. Some of the most impactful guys coming off the bench in the play-offs like Poole, Dinwiddie and Derrick White started over half the games in the regular season. Are they eligible or is that up to us?
RCM88x wrote:EOY - Kleiman (Memphis with the sweep here in the non-player awards, again, and incredible 2 year turnaround and really has made some moves/trades that have put them in a great spot going forward with what I think could be the best team in the league the next couple years)
Okay, I alluded to this in a post yesterday and now seems like the time to discuss it:
Kleiman won the EOY this year, and thus I think by definition we need to consider him a reasonable vote and a strong candidate...
but what did he actually do this year?
Which points to the more pointed question:
Are official NBA Executive of the Year Award voters just completely dismissing the "Year" aspect of the award they are voting for?
Along with:
Whatever we conclude they do, what do we think we should do?
I felt like the moves he made over the summer with Allen, Bledsoe and Val, and then getting back Adams. Not amazing sexy moves but really cleaned up the roster/books and opened the door for younger and better players. I feel like a lot of the time with these young up and coming teams it seems like there's always a need to add older guys when often times subtracting then opened the door and improves the core of the team. But it's always hard to guage guys on a 1 year cycle as often times these moves take a few years to truly manifest their value, so I can totally see the argument for a guy who made a bigger move this year or has had more a track record.
Appreciate your thoughts explained. Yeah, still doesn't seem like he did that much to me, but given that he won EOY award, you're certainly not alone.
Feel like people likely have their head around this for themselves so I think I'll refrain from making cases for guys here.
Agreed. To me, the order currently is something like this:
Jokic Curry ------ Giannis ------ Tatum Luka Embiid Butler
The serious debate for the top spot to me involves Jokic and Curry. Jokic had the best RS and Giannis, to me, has not made up this gap in the playoffs, so I find it hard to come up with an argument for Giannis. The only way to do so for me would be to punish Jokic for inherent flaws in his game that came out in the playoffs (defense), but I wouldn't go that far myself and Giannis' second round may also be used to speak about a flaw in his game (teams with size that can shrink the floor) and knock his resilience.
Since the only argument for someone else has to be about the playoffs, to me that leaves Curry. He has to make up quite some ground from the RS but I have Curry's RS ranked around 4-5th, so it clearly is not insurmountable. Curry had a great run and especially his last two series showed that can now figure out even great defenses quite consistently. Was this enough to top Jokic? Personally, I still lean towards Jokic but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.
Then, there is a gap. Embiid and Tatum had the best RS, Luka and Butler arguably the best playoff runs (certainly better than Embiid, Tatum is more of a discussion because his Finals just weigh heavily). – I'm pretty firm on having Butler last of his group. His RS was really mediocre, although I am willing to cut him at least some slack as Miami continued to be successful and he didn't need to go all out. His playoffs were obviously really good. But I will say that even with his really strong run, I just didn't see that teams were willing to try everything to stop him. It seems like often teams are content to let him operate in regular coverages. He had a great impact at the team-level still, so this makes it tougher to evaluate (this clearly is not a ‘he got his but his team didn't perform well’ situation) but something to keep in mind. Either way, it was difficult for him to make up for his subpar RS and the fact that he managed to enter the top 7 is already quite the accomplishment. – Tatum I feel most comfortable having in my top 5. He clearly had an excellent RS. Perhaps Embiid was still better but it's at least debatable. He was clearly the driver of this good Boston team, especially on offense but he was also very important on defense and he played 76 games. The games played are important because had he played the same amount as Embiid, Boston perhaps doesn't even have HCA in the first round of the playoffs. I also think his playoffs made up the possible RS gap. If we compare the first two rounds in the POs, Tatum makes up quite a bit of ground and he continues to do so with his ECF. His Finals don't add much if any value but that's still enough for me. – So the debate is Embiid vs. Doncic. Clearly better RS versus clearly better POs. Considering that Doncic turned it up in the RS when it was needed and Dallas still made the playoffs with HCA, I am inclined to not punish him too harshly for the first weeks of the season but he had to make up quite a bit of ground nonetheless. For now, I think he may have done just enough with the way he figured out the Suns and led the team to an unlikely victory, along with two other good – but not great – playoff rounds. It's tough to assess the impact of him missing three games in the first round, though. Perhaps he could have been ready after two games if needed but it is something to ponder on. I have to think about this more and would like to hear the thoughts of everyone else.
Doctor MJ wrote:OPOY - I find myself gravitating to Jokic, Curry & Doncic. When looking to consider someone from the East, KD & Butler come to mind.
Big debate for me is between Jokic & Curry. Jokic clearly has the regular season edge, but Curry felt impossible to solve for against all comers (and no, "solving for" doesn't mean putting enough pressure on him that his teammates get-off).
Agreed. I would have Jokic #1, Curry #2 and probably Doncic #3. How do we feel about Ja Morant? Lots of talk that his team has performed better without him but that's mostly because his defense has been putrid and drags the team down. Trae had an argument after the RS but he's one of the few that are actively hurt by the POs because it did look like he just couldn't figure out that defense at all and his impact took a nosedive, so that raises a lot of concerns and I can't possibly have him on the OPOY ballot this year.
Doctor MJ wrote:DPOY - I'm on record with this as a particularly brutal year for this award. Guys on my mind are Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, Bam & all the key Celtics.
I'll say that I'd lean Draymond for the top spot at this point. We saw how good he was to start the year and end the year. To me he remains the gold standard for versatile defense, and with his team winning the chip, it's hard for me to really care about the time missed to injury all that much.
Good list. I'd add Jackson Jr. to it. Only other player on my shortlist was Mikal but I think he's rather an HM. Similar to Wiggins who was better in the POs but worse in the RS. I am currently torn between Draymond and Gobert for the top spot, and the third spot is wide open. Giannis, Bam, Smart, Williams and Jackson Jr. are my main contenders. The Celtics group is interesting because I think Williams has been their most impactful defender on the court, but I'm unsure how to evaluate Smart's role in leading this defense vocally and in terms of general leadership on and off the court. Williams was hugely impactful but how much of that was allowed by the other Celtics being so good and versatile defensively that they allowed him to play in that one role he is so devastating at, and how would we evaluate that?
Doctor MJ wrote:ROY - Barnes, Mobley & Cunningham are the obvious big 3. Herb Jones would the other guy on my mind.
My top 3 as well with Barnes edging out Mobley, and then a bit of a gap for #3 (Cade). I'm open to considering Herb as well, and would also throw in the name Franz Wagner – he had a great Rookie season and made an impact. I can see having him in over Cade, it's certainly up for debate. The fact that Mobley and Barnes were important contributors on winning teams matters enough to me to have them #1 and #2, though.
Toughest award for me. I lean towards Garland for his improvement to All-Star territory and a wide open field behind him. I'll have to think about this one a lot more. I'm generally hesitant to reward 2nd year players unless that improvement was really unexpected – but I also don't rule them out either. It's also an open question to me how we evaluate skill improvements versus mental improvements (i.e. ability to play your role better without necessarily acquiring new skills) – the latter may be more impactful, but also more difficult to evaluate as there is a lot of context involved.
Doctor MJ wrote:6MOY - Guys to consider? Well, in the regular season award it went Herro, Love, Johnson, Clarkson, Kennard, Bogdanovic
I also tend to look at the 6th man candidates for the big playoff teams, and that adds Otto Porter & Grant Williams into the mix.
Agreed with the playoffs point. That's key – if you can give your team a boost off the bench in the playoffs, that matters a lot and can swing series. Still not sure who I'd vote for here. Since you mention OPJ: I actually think GPII has a better case. He was a key swing factor in [edit: the last] series (Dallas and Boston). He has that special ability to come in and almost always make an impact. +11.9 on/off net rating in the playoffs was not a fluke, although of course helped by line-up combinations and controlled playing time.
I really don't think there are any awesome candidates this year. I can already feel that no matter who I end up having on my ballot, I'm going to question my choices.
Doctor MJ wrote:COY - Some names and background:
Bickerstaff (CLE) - team was unexpected quite good before injuries building around unorthodox players Donovan (CHI) - seemed to get the team humming Finch (MIN) - seemed to make progress with the team Green (NOP) - noteworthy turnaround he led this year in what seemed like a lost season Jenkins (MEM) - one of the most remarkable player development jobs I can recall seeing (JJJ, Morant, Bane) Kerr (GSW) - has approached his job completely differently than any other coach, and is back on top again Kidd (DAL) - team seemed to take a step forward this year Malone (DEN) - when we credit Jokic with keeping the team afloat, I do think the coach deserves some credit too Nurse (TOR) - highly respected basketball brain, team felt up and coming again Spoelstra (MIA) - another superb year Williams (PHX) - a dream regular season Udoka (BOS) - the most remarkable turnaround I think I've ever watched unfold
So, I'm not sure if I'm biased here but I would have Kerr in a tier by himself. Having watched him closely, he was been absolutely magnificent at making adjustments in the playoffs, both during and between games – from line-up changes, to defensive strategies, to offensive tweaks to his favorite approach. He also found perfect roles for GPII, Wiggins and some others. This is on top of his usual impact on team chemistry (keeping everyone engaged), and him handling player relationships well (integrating Klay, keeping Poole engaged despite being in and out of line-ups, finding minutes even for the end-of-bench players and Rookies). He also deserves huge props for hiring elite assistants that challenge him – especially regarding Atkinson, it was Kerr who mentioned many times that he wanted to have someone in the room who challenges him and thinks differently, and by all accounts our assistants were important to our season (as evidenced by all the interest they sparked in HC searches). Can't praise him enough for his willingness to hire the best people, be challenged, and happily share all the credit with his staff.
I think I'd have Spo #2 tentatively. Just incredible what he did with this roster, he just finds ways to have players contribute beyond their talent level and play superb defense, along with his adjustments in the playoffs. Third spot is open. Udoka, Bickerstaff and Nurse are on my shortlist. Kidd and Jenkins are also good options. Williams is the most difficult case – brilliant team in the RS and that matters, but that playoff exit really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Doctor MJ wrote:EOY - some names and background:
Myers (GSW) - Acquired Porter, Payton & Bjelica, drafted Kuminga & Moody Stevens (BOS) - Replaced self with Udoka as coach, acquired Horford, White & Theis Riley (MIA) - Traded for Lowry, signed Tucker, Oladipo, Strus, Vincent Harrison (DAL) - Hired Kidd, traded away Porzingis, received Dinwiddie, signed Bullock Kleiman (MEM) - Won NBA's EOY...Acquired Steven Adams. Apparent disconnect there, worth discussion. Morey (PHI) - Signed Danny Green, traded away Simmons & Curry, received Harden Ujiri (TOR) - Drafted Barnes in surprise move, signed Trent Karnisovas (CHI) - Acquired DeRozan, Ball & Caruso Altman (CLE) - Signed Allen, drafted Mobley (as expected), acquired Markkanen & Levert Griffin (NOP) - Fired Van Gundy, hired Green, let go Lonzo, drafted/discovered Jones & Alvarado, acquired McCollum & Nance Pritchard (IND) - Fired Bjorkgren, hired Carlisle, got Haliburton & assets for Sabonis & Levert Presti (OKC) - Drafted Giddey, got draft assets
I love Stevens here. The willingness to replace himself and hit the nail on the coaching selection deserves huge props. He also had a clear hand in the Celtics playoffs run with White and Horford being key contributors.
Myers deserves praise for his refusal to go all-in for a star and mortgage the future that way, which was the right decision but unpopular with fans around the league – and even many GSW fans wanted an all-in trade. But we won with depth and chemistry, on the back of Curry (offense) and Green (defense) around great fits. But I'm not sure if Myers or Lacob deserve more credit here. Also, choosing Payton II over Bradley was a home run and reportedly went against the preferences of the star players at the time. He also filled out the roster nicely with OPJ and Bjelica, although I'm not sure how much credit should go to him for that.
Ujiri is, as usual, another candidate. Drafting Barnes was not very popular but looks to be the correct choice, and Trent helped them as well. He also kept Siakam (I was a skeptic) and build a very competitive team around him this season. But was this impactful enough for the EOY award?
Griffin had a great draft, he brought in pieces to help the team win, and I also think we may only really appreciate his moves once Zion in back because I think he did a really admirable job to build around him. I'll have to think about his candidacy a bit more but I think he at least deserves consideration.
I also love the shout-out to Pritchard! I love what Indiana has done. It's difficult to compare executives on teams with completely different directions, but to trade Sabonis for Haliburton I think was a marvelous move that will help the team tremendously going forward, and convincing Carlisle was another key achievement.
Tentatively, I think I'd have Stevens #1 with Pritchard and Myers filling out my ballot. But I'm open to considering others as well – it's one of the toughest awards to hand out, imo.
Doctor MJ wrote:Reasoning makes sense but raises another question:
Despite the fact that Barnes got picked only a spot after Mobley, my impression was that he was very much seen as a lower tier of prospect. Did you agree with that assessment then? Did Barnes do stuff this year that led you to lift him up to the same tier as Mobley...or were you always beemed up by Scottie?
Hehe. I had Mobley in a higher tier but Barnes' scoring translated better than I thought it would which just may allow him to continue doing his on-ball stuff and doing so effectively. So the gap has closed to some extent even though I'd still pick Mobley ahead of him.
Does it bother anyone else that Robert Williams only played the 7th most minutes on the Celtics in the post-season? While it certainly looks like he was the most impactful defender on the team per minute, I'd probably go with Horford or Smart instead as the defensive MVP for the Celtics due to their much bigger roles. Both played double the minutes in the post-season Williams played. Not sure yet if I'll have a Celtic on my DPOY ballot tbh due to the top 7 rotation players (starters + Grant and White) all being big positives on that end in their own right.
Green played so few games/minutes in the regular season but when he did play he was the best defender in the league. Combined with his play-off outing, I find it hard to leave him off the DPOY ballot but not sure yet where he'll end up.
Gobert was my DPOY for the regular season between playing a lot more than Draymond, being right up there in all defensive metrics and having to carry a very mediocre supporting cast on that end. In the play-offs Gobert did decently well but kind of similarly to Jokic, their perimeter defense was so bad it wasn't salvagable.
Giannis was great defensively in both the regular season and the play-offs but opposite to Gobert the Bucks regular season defense is what is bothering me. Yes Giannis was clearly the best defender on the team but when they're average at best on defense with honestly a pretty good defensive supporting cast I'm reluctant to praise Giannis too much for his defense in the regular season.
Embiid had by far his best offensive season but didn't seem to try as hard on the defensive end in the regular season. Then the play-offs came around and he crumbled on offense but was great on defense. Probably too small of a sample size to turn the tides though.
Then you've got some balance in the madness with Bam and JJJ not having the most spectacular but certainly very well rounded defensive seasons.
I feel like whoever signs Payton next year needs to give him a serious shot to be a starter - and were I GS, I wouldn't be planning to let him go.
Gary Payton 2 is what we want Westbrook to be next year but won’t get
My god, that hits me right in my Wooden heart.
GP2 is much more what I was thinking of Westbrook as out of college than what Westbrook became. Hard to expect a player to choose GP2's treatment by NBA teams over Westbrook's, but man, right about now, no question who you'd rather have on your contender.
