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2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2

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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#281 » by gesa2 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:18 am

I wasn’t high on Griffin doc but I don’t remember you loving anyone in the lottery this much. My faith in you is swaying me. Not losing my Johnny fanboy status, but if we go Griffin I won’t be disappointed.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#282 » by FAH1223 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:23 am

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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#283 » by DCZards » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:26 am

doclinkin wrote:
DCZards wrote:Both Wes Jr. and Tommy have said they’re looking for a “competitor” or a “dog” in this draft. That seems to fit the description of Davis.

Doc is right that Davis will have to adjust to the more physical NBA interior players but he has an outstanding midrange game that will help early on. (Derozan, Paul and Butler have all proven that the midrange shot is still a weapon in the NBA.) Of course, you’d want to see Davis become a better 3pt shooter.

Griffin has more upside IF he’s healthy.


Right, I like Davis, but in taking him we would lead the league on guys who "would be really good if he had a three point shot". That seems to be a Tommy special. Good character guys with no jumper. (Hello TBJ, Sato, Bonga, Deni, Rui until the playoffs last year, etc etc etc). WIth Kispert the lone exception.

I'm thinking maybe this time we draft a guy who already has one, and who might have significant additional upside -- if we trust the new medical wing of Monumental. Kispert has begun to figure out his range, so that helps, but doesn't have the same wiggle to create his own shot as the 18 yr old Griffin. Remember this is the 2nd youngest guy in the first round (unless one of the Euro's sneaks in late). He's got veteran moves on the step back, ball fake, side step. Dropping in shots from NBA range, at a 44% clip. And every now and again uncorks a monstrous dunk just to remind you that he can.



That is a veteran game being played by a very young cat. So. What is his upside if he does get healthy? To me it seems like a potential steal. With Davis it feels like we would have incremental improvement. WIth Griffin it feels like there is a chance for a significant leap forward once he gets his comfort back. You'd have to guard a Griffin/Beal/Porzingis duo very differently than the Johnny Davis version of the line-up. Davis and Beal have games that are very similar unless Beal regains his form on his jumper from when he was playing with prime Wall. Griffin looks like he would have that floor warping gravity that opens up space for Beal to make him more effective. Looks to me like he can get his own jumper off against defenders of all sizes. There are some clean pretty sets and plays I can see with Griffin on the floor drawing attention. I can see synergy with Deni as well as the ball moving facilitator who can find AJ open outside.

Doc, I'm gonna take a closer look at Griffin...starting with these videos you posted here.

But I think you underrate Davis and do him a disservice by comparing his offensive game to Sato, Bonga, TBJ, Rui, etc. And what is it with you and this "good character" stuff?
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#284 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:23 am

gesa2 wrote:I wasn’t high on Griffin doc but I don’t remember you loving anyone in the lottery this much. My faith in you is swaying me. Not losing my Johnny fanboy status, but if we go Griffin I won’t be disappointed.



I've been in sync with pretty much everything doc has said on this draft, his player lists and rankings, and his breakdowns etc. Griffin is one I'm just not high on. It's really just the eye test for me, he has a stiffness to him, the way he moves... and it may be a contributing factor to his injuries.

Like I remember thinking Oubre had a stiffness to him too, same kind of thing. I generally favor smooth, fluid, coordinated players with soft hands, good footwork, balance & agility. The Wizards are lacking these types of players in general. Sometimes you get these stiff guys, but they overcome it with quick twitch athleticism, super burst, hops, speed, quickness, physicality, strength, hustle, etc. But Griffin doesn't really pop in that way either. Plus bad knees are a big red flag for me. Knees are generally something that's not going to get better with age, travel, 82 game schedule, back to backs, and just battling against bigger stronger grown men every night as opposed to high school/college.

But there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, and if he's our pick I'm fine with it. I'd rather take Griffin than Sochan, or Sharpe, among others.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#285 » by payitforward » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:24 am

I wish I saw any reason to think that Johnny Davis will become an outstanding NBA player, but I don't. I also haven't heard anyone else give a good reason to think it either. For example, "plays really hard on defense" is not a reason to think it, though obviously it's a good thing.

I like AJ Griffin much better than Davis as a player -- yet, at the same time, there has to be some shade thrown by a significant injury, even if, it's true, he's one of the youngest kids in the draft.

I am pretty sure that Tari Eason has far more potential than either Davis or Griffin. If I felt certain he'd be there at 17, I'd try hard to trade our 10 to Houston for their 17 & 26.

If it could be done, I'd then trade that 26 to the Magic for their 32 & 35. I'd take Walker Kessler at 32 -- he seems almost criminally underrated. If Kennedy Chandler is still on the board at 35, & I think he will be, he'd be my pick. Grab Trevion or Keon at 54 & go home a very happy man, having added 4 really excellent prospects to the team.

But, before heading home, I'd put in a call to Kenneth Lofton Jr's agent! :)
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#286 » by gesa2 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:30 am

payitforward wrote:I wish I saw any reason to think that Johnny Davis will become an outstanding NBA player, but I don't. I also haven't heard anyone else give a good reason to think it either. For example, "plays really hard on defense" is not a reason to think it, though obviously it's a good thing.

I like AJ Griffin much better than Davis as a player -- yet, at the same time, there has to be some shade thrown by a significant injury, even if, it's true, he's one of the youngest kids in the draft.

I am pretty sure that Tari Eason has far more potential than either Davis or Griffin. If I felt certain he'd be there at 17, I'd try hard to trade our 10 to Houston for their 17 & 26.

If it could be done, I'd then trade that 26 to the Magic for their 32 & 35. I'd take Walker Kessler at 32 -- he seems almost criminally underrated. If Kennedy Chandler is still on the board at 35, & I think he will be, he'd be my pick. Grab Trevion or Keon at 54 & go home a very happy man, having added 4 really excellent prospects to the team.

But, before heading home, I'd put in a call to Kenneth Lofton Jr's agent! :)


Couple quick data points in Davis’ favor:
- rebounds really well for a 2 guard, especially one that was the offensive engine for his team
- free throw rate predicts professional 3 point success as well as college 3 point rate, and his was very good.

Edit to give #s: rebound 9.6 per 40 min, really high for a guard. FT .791 last year.
Making extreme statements like "only" sounds like there are "no" Jokics in this draft? Jokic is an engine that was drafted in the 2nd round. Always a chance to see diamond dropped by sloppy burgular after a theft.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#287 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:38 am

gesa2 wrote:I wasn’t high on Griffin doc but I don’t remember you loving anyone in the lottery this much. My faith in you is swaying me. Not losing my Johnny fanboy status, but if we go Griffin I won’t be disappointed.


DCZards wrote:Doc, I'm gonna take a closer look at Griffin...starting with these videos you posted here.

But I think you underrate Davis and do him a disservice by comparing his offensive game to Sato, Bonga, TBJ, Rui, etc. And what is it with you and this "good character" stuff?


Ha!

Look I am happy to be on Griffin island by myself. Don't blame me if we select him and he doesn't pan out. My enthusiasm on him is that a) he is super young but with a pro type game that already projects to find minutes as a role player. b) his value is suppressed due to 2 things: he was injured for a chunk of time in high school, raising fears in front offices, and he tweaked his leg in preseason so my read is he got gunshy and played cautious all year. Fit his role after a rolling start.

Then too he looks like a good fit. That he can play across from Beal and provide space (given the inevitable that Beal signs here). He makes it tougher to double Porzingis and provides better spacing for pick and roll options for him. Porzingis should be freed up from double and triple teams if he has ranged scoring in the corners. This is a guy who has spent a ton of time sitting on the bench in street clothes really shouldn't take the pounding of double and triple teams.

Davis and Griffin may be on the same tier for different reasons. In that respect it is fair of BPA to give a nod to fit. If you don't get minutes and don't know your role, it is tougher to earn minutes and develop. Fit is key in that respect. I see where Griffin slots in. We need an outside shooter who can make his own offense. Especially if we are running with Beal at point for a few minutes a game. If the rules are going to continue to be called like they were this year, and it wasn't just a one-year blip, then you need players who will be able to score within that rule set. To me this reads as a return to tall strong athletic guards from back in the Vinsanity, TMac, MJ era, instead of the small quick combo guards who had been feasting in the pace and space era. You want guys who can elevate and shoot over the defenders, and guys who can make their own space to get a shot off. Davis' best strength is that he is an avalanche on his way to the basket. He seems to enjoy contact. That's fun to watch, but this year those players were struggling. Even HOF foul magnet James Harden had problems adjusting.

I like Davis. If you scroll back 40 pages or so you will see me making a case for him on defense when CCJ called him a one-way offensive player (due to how he played against the Terps). I just see some things stacked against his type of game. YES he is a much more effective scorer than TBJ etc. And his Defense is exciting. But it is fair to say his greatest strength is not outside shooting, which is one of this team's greatest weaknesses. Yes, true, defense is also a weakness, so he would be an upgrade there. In effort alone he would raise the team level.

I just think this team needs to find every hack they can to squeeze extra value out of their selections. IF Griffin had not been injured he would be in the conversation for top 3 in this draft. So, if you get him on a discount because other teams are jumpy about the risk, maybe the gamble pays off and you got a top 3 talent with the 10th pick. I don't think Johnny Davis has ever been in the conversation of the top 3-5 most talented guys in this draft class.

As for "good character". Well it doesn't relate to either Davis or Griffin who both seem like fine guys. But still. Here it is: Dat2U was talking about how he should get a job as a scout. So I got curious if there was a job available. I found that Monumental was actually hiring. But at every click deeper into their HR site they had more happy-talk blather about Ted's double bottom line. That they want to do well by being good. That's fine and all, I like good people, but for some reason it galled me that rather than focus on how good you were at your job, they were focusing on things that might be irrelevant. I suppose it seems to me the double bottom line tends to provide a safety net below actually winning, that so long as you are fine fine people it is okay if you lose so long as you try hard and act friendly. Good enough is good enough.

As a human being I am an empathic fellow, I appreciate altruism and good character. As a sports fan, well, I wouldn't say I am a sociopath, but I recognize that the highest levels of winning are often achieved by emotionally unbalanced individuals. :D. It is not a requirement to be crazy, just that a level of singleminded focus and lack of personal social skills should not rule you out as a player for this team. If you are the sort of player who really wants to crush the opposition, you might not be the most charming guy in the room. Giannis can afford to be the most charming person in the room because, well, he's a physical Freak as well as being highly driven. Tommy hires nice guys. Ted is about to spend an unreasonable amount of money to retain Brad Beal, in part because he seems to be a genuinely nice guy. Ted wants us to try to win late in the season because it shows good character, instead of gaming the %'s to get a truly franchise changing talent. To me the bottom line is winning. The consolation prize of liking the team is awesome, sure, and who wants to sell their soul to win? Still, it seems to me occasionally the priorities get reversed and the team focuses on the personalities first more than, I dunno, killer instinct. Will to win. The intangible thing you know when you see it. More than stats, but that sense of the moment, of timing, of rising to the occasion and overachieving. The thing that Jerry West was so good at IDing when selecting players. That Kobe and MJ and even lesser talents like Jimmy Butler have. I dunno. Sometimes you want to see a team that has that competitive arrogance where they know they are going to win, and if a play fails they won't spend a whole possession pleading their case to the refs and sulking, but instead run back to the other end and take their frustrations out on the other team, by beating them anyway. As if the refs were for the other team but that's okay, it just makes it that much more satisfying to crush them, playing 8 on 5 and they still can't beat you.

That is one way that I think Johnny Davis is a solid pick. That cat wants to win more than anyone else on the floor. So. Sure. And he also seems like a nice guy :clown:
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#288 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:05 am

So as for ESPN's show on the Mock Draft, they have us taking Davis (Mathurin 5th), but Woj basically said the Wiz are dangling the pick and something else to get a veteran point guard since it's assumed that they will re-sign BB to the supermax. Not saying it's definitely Brogdon, but could be somebody else.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#289 » by Jay81 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:28 am

80sballboy wrote:So as for ESPN's show on the Mock Draft, they have us taking Davis (Mathurin 5th), but Woj basically said the Wiz are dangling the pick and something else to get a veteran point guard since it's assumed that they will re-sign BB to the supermax. Not saying it's definitely Brogdon, but could be somebody else.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#290 » by DCZards » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:31 am

As a college player, Johnny Davis had some of his best games against the top teams. One of his best games last season was a road game against third-ranked Purdue and Jaden Ivy where he scored 37 points, 27 of them in the second half, with 14 rebounds, three assists, two steals and two blocked shots.

It wasn't the first time he showed up big in a big game. Here's a fun story about Davis going up against Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren in high school.

'We couldn’t stop him': The night Johnny Davis showed NBA potential against Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren
by Michael Hogan

Roughly 3,000 people paid the price of admission that night and jammed into the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse's Mitchell Hall for the Wisconsin-Minnesota Border Battle. Some fans stood in corners around the court, while others sat or knelt in front of the bleachers to take in a contest predominantly headlined by elite Minnehaha talents Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren.

Their resumes alone made any game they played in a marquee event. Suggs, then a five-star prospect and the No. 2 combo guard in the country, committed to Gonzaga about a month earlier. The 7-foot center Holmgren, then a junior, committed to Gonzaga in April 2021 as the top-rated player in the country.

Suggs and Holmgren helped the Redhawks prevail that night, of course. Suggs scored 28 points with six rebounds and three assists, while Holmgren added 18 points in the 74-63 victory.

But a player with a lower profile raised his game to a level on par with his two more celebrated opponents. Central's Johnny Davis, a three-star prospect already committed to the University of Wisconsin, seized the spotlight and showed just how special he could be, blazing Minnehaha with 42 points on 14 of 30 shooting.

"He was (the best player) that night," Minnehaha head coach Lance Johnson said of Davis. "I am partial to my guys, but that night he was the best player on the court. I have to give him his kudos."


It wasn't the first time Johnson saw Davis outscore his stars. The Redhawks and Red Raiders met in January 2019 as part of the Midwest Players Classic, and Davis scored 21 points with 19 rebounds in a 59-55 loss. Suggs finished with 18 points on 7 of 21 shooting, and Holmgren had 17.

But that game hardly compares to the 2020 version in which Davis masterfully dominated the Redhawks no matter the adjustments Johnson tried to make. Davis burned Minnehaha with mid-range jump shots and contested layups and electrified the venue with a put-back dunk in the first half. The only real blemish on his stat line by the end was his performance at the foul line, from which he missed six shots out of 20 attempts.

"We couldn't stop him," Johnson said of Davis, who also had ten rebounds and four assists in that game.

"In a way, he reminds me of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, where they’re going to be pissed off and have a reason to outduel who they’re playing against," Davis’s father Mark said. "Kobe and Michael were the best players on the court, but they felt they had to prove themselves game after game, day after day.

"That’s how Johnny is. He wants to prove he’s the best every time he steps on the court.”

https://247sports.com/college/wisconsin/Article/Johnny-Davis-2022-NBA-Draft-prospect-showed-elite-potential-against-Jalen-Suggs-Chet-Holmgren-Wisconsin-Badgers-basketball-La-Crosse-Central-Minnehaha-Academy-189004692/Amp/
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#291 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:40 am

So at least we'll have the 54th pick and have to stay up to 11:45pmET on Thursday because they will probably trade the pick because Beal.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#292 » by FAH1223 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:54 am

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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#293 » by jangles86 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:32 am

I’m praying we do not trade for Malcolm Brogdon.


My top 5 preferences for wizards picks outside of Banchero, Holmgren and Smith:
1.Jayden Ivey
2.Benedict Mathurian
3.Dyson Daniels
4.Shaedon Sharp
5.Johnny Davis.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#294 » by Jimmy Recard » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:51 am

Wow if we trade the 10th pick for Brogdon I think I’m out on Tommy.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#295 » by gambitx777 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:25 am

Jimmy Recard wrote:Wow if we trade the 10th pick for Brogdon I think I’m out on Tommy.
Im not sold that he's gonna trade the 10 for brogdon. Brogdon can't stay healthy. We have assets to trade for him and on top of that his salary is large it, along with health issues makes his value decay.

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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#296 » by machu46 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:26 am

FAH1223 wrote:
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I'm sure it was posted in here already, but FWIW, Givony was saying earlier yesterday that the Wizards flat out are not including the #10 pick in a Brogdon trade.

The fact that Woj added that Washington would potentially include additional assets on top of the #10 pick tells me they're aiming higher than Brogdon and probably points me more towards Mayo's speculation re: Shai, Murray, etc.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#297 » by Frichuela » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:45 am

machu46 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
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I'm sure it was posted in here already, but FWIW, Givony was saying earlier yesterday that the Wizards flat out are not including the #10 pick in a Brogdon trade.

The fact that Woj added that Washington would potentially include additional assets on top of the #10 pick tells me they're aiming higher than Brogdon and probably points me more towards Mayo's speculation re: Shai, Murray, etc.


Makes sense. Fingers crossed Tommy gets it right and extracts as much value as possible.
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#298 » by closg00 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:03 pm

What do you guys think about PG Jamaree Bouyea for our 2nd pick?
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#299 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:32 pm

machu46 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
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I'm sure it was posted in here already, but FWIW, Givony was saying earlier yesterday that the Wizards flat out are not including the #10 pick in a Brogdon trade.

The fact that Woj added that Washington would potentially include additional assets on top of the #10 pick tells me they're aiming higher than Brogdon and probably points me more towards Mayo's speculation re: Shai, Murray, etc.


Now I might really like that trade with my reservations being largely based on Brogdon's age, injury history
and high salary. If he's healthy and playing though....
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Re: 2022 NBA Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#300 » by dobrojim » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:47 pm

closg00 wrote:What do you guys think about PG Jamaree Bouyea for our 2nd pick?

I now see why there has been so much chatter about Trevion Williams. Love to snag either
him or Nembhard with our rnd 2 pick. Obviously, they both might be gone.
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