What is the argument for Bird over Kobe?

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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#81 » by Stalwart » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:06 pm

Lebron James at age 19 put up 21/5/6 on 42% shooting and 40mpg. Im pretty a 19 yr old Kobe on his own team and playimg 40mpg crushes those numbers.

KG at age 19: 10/6/4 in 29mpg
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#82 » by Masigond » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:14 am

G35 wrote:That is probably a 2nd round team and Kobe is averaging at least 20/5/5 since he is likely the 1st option or co-option with Webber. Kobe lost two seasons coming off the bench because Phil didn't like rookies, especially high school rookies. Without having to fight Shaq for touches, Kobe could destroy the record books with coaches that would let him do whatever he wanted like some of these other players......

It's only logical that Phil Jackson let Kobe rot on the Lakers' bench in 96-97 and 97-98 as he was concerned winning the second and third title in a row in his second three-peat with the Bulls...

So, Kobe would have been somewhat like an Iverson clone in his early years. Choose: Either a guy padding his stats or a guy often claimed to be an integral part of championship teams despite his young age. I don't think those two scenarios mix. Does Kobe still have a claim for the top 10 of all time or even top 5 where some see him without his first three championships? The point is that Kobe's instinct clashed with Phil's strategy of the TPO that was meant to prevent ball dominance by one player. I think the results show that Phil was right: Even with guys so incredibly able to carry a lot of scoring load like both MJ and Kobe the teams were better when one guy wasn't trying to do everything by himself. With Kobe trying to do his thing it could get ugly. Like the 2004 Finals for example when Kobe wanted to be MJ but actually went full Iverson (I won't ignore that the team had injury problems, especially Malone, and players not fitting in like Payton, but it was clear that Kobe wanted to be "the man", and it backfired horribly).


BTW: Kobe and Webber on the same team would have been a lot of fun. Both so talented and both not clever enough to really choose the right plays and shots that would be best for their teams.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#83 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:14 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better peak and 5 years prime. Outside of that, he doesn't have the greatest case.

I think he was better player than Kobe, to the point that I still rank him higher than Bryant, but only by one spot (11th vs 12th).


You have Bird outside of your top-10? Didn't expect that.

LeBron
MJ
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem

I assume that's your top-9? Do you have Oscar in there too? Or D-Rob? West?

Different order, but yes. Garnett is my 10th player and then I have Bird, Oscar and Kobe fighting for 11th spot.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#84 » by Jaivl » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:52 am

Stalwart wrote:I disagree. I think the 19yr old All Star and almost 6MOY could absolutely hold a candle to those guys. Again, 18/3/2 in only 26mpg at age 19. Im not sure what kind of numbers you expect from a 19yr old Lebron James in 26 minutes. Give 19/20 yr old Kobe 35-40mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 25/5/5 statline. Do you disagree?

I think Magic was the best 20yr old btw. But Kobe could hold a candle.

Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#85 » by Stalwart » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:05 am

Jaivl wrote:
Stalwart wrote:I disagree. I think the 19yr old All Star and almost 6MOY could absolutely hold a candle to those guys. Again, 18/3/2 in only 26mpg at age 19. Im not sure what kind of numbers you expect from a 19yr old Lebron James in 26 minutes. Give 19/20 yr old Kobe 35-40mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 25/5/5 statline. Do you disagree?

I think Magic was the best 20yr old btw. But Kobe could hold a candle.

Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.


I see no counter argument
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#86 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:06 am

Stalwart wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Stalwart wrote:I disagree. I think the 19yr old All Star and almost 6MOY could absolutely hold a candle to those guys. Again, 18/3/2 in only 26mpg at age 19. Im not sure what kind of numbers you expect from a 19yr old Lebron James in 26 minutes. Give 19/20 yr old Kobe 35-40mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 25/5/5 statline. Do you disagree?

I think Magic was the best 20yr old btw. But Kobe could hold a candle.

Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.


I see no counter argument

Then try looking closer maybe...
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#87 » by ceoofkobefans » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:09 am

I personally don’t see much of an argument for bird > Kobe all time but bird peaked higher than Kobe and depending on how big you think the gap is peak for peak (I don’t think it’s very big) and how much you value peak vs longevity an argument is there.

I feel like Kobe gets underrated a lot on here because his RS metrics (especially his box metrics) aren’t very high but he’s one of the biggest PO risers ever offensively and defensively I think he has a fringe top 10 peak ever (11 imo) but I know it’s popular to have his peak closer to 20 than 10 here
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#88 » by Stalwart » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:09 am

70sFan wrote:
Stalwart wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.


I see no counter argument

Then try looking closer maybe...


Still not seeing it. I do see the attempt though.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#89 » by Jaivl » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:13 am

Stalwart wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Stalwart wrote:I disagree. I think the 19yr old All Star and almost 6MOY could absolutely hold a candle to those guys. Again, 18/3/2 in only 26mpg at age 19. Im not sure what kind of numbers you expect from a 19yr old Lebron James in 26 minutes. Give 19/20 yr old Kobe 35-40mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 25/5/5 statline. Do you disagree?

I think Magic was the best 20yr old btw. But Kobe could hold a candle.

Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.


I see no counter argument

I don't really have anything to argue about, I have Kobe over Bird. Just pointing out that using the same numbers that say Harden > Kobe is not a good argument.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#90 » by Stalwart » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:18 am

Jaivl wrote:
Stalwart wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Give Michael Adams 35-40 mpg on his own team and you'll easily see a 27/4/11 statline.

You're doing Kobe a disservice with such weak arguments. Slashlines. In 2022.


I see no counter argument

I don't really have anything to argue about, I have Kobe over Bird. Just pointing out that using the same numbers that say Harden > Kobe is not a good argument.


Its a better argument than whatever you're trying to do here. 'Slashlines' were used against Kobe being an All Star and you didn't bat an eye. But when I counter with a slashline all the sudden its a bad argument. Ok, whatever.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#91 » by PistolPeteJR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:Better peak and 5 years prime. Outside of that, he doesn't have the greatest case.

I think he was better player than Kobe, to the point that I still rank him higher than Bryant, but only by one spot (11th vs 12th).


You have Bird outside of your top-10? Didn't expect that.

LeBron
MJ
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem

I assume that's your top-9? Do you have Oscar in there too? Or D-Rob? West?

Different order, but yes. Garnett is my 10th player and then I have Bird, Oscar and Kobe fighting for 11th spot.


Where’s Magic on your list?
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#92 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:22 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
You have Bird outside of your top-10? Didn't expect that.

LeBron
MJ
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem

I assume that's your top-9? Do you have Oscar in there too? Or D-Rob? West?

Different order, but yes. Garnett is my 10th player and then I have Bird, Oscar and Kobe fighting for 11th spot.


Where’s Magic on your list?

At the 9th spot.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#93 » by PistolPeteJR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:55 pm

70sFan wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:Different order, but yes. Garnett is my 10th player and then I have Bird, Oscar and Kobe fighting for 11th spot.


Where’s Magic on your list?

At the 9th spot.


Wow, didn't expect for you to have Magic at 9. Knowing that, I guess I can understand Bird at 11.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#94 » by 70sFan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:37 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Where’s Magic on your list?

At the 9th spot.


Wow, didn't expect for you to have Magic at 9. Knowing that, I guess I can understand Bird at 11.

Did you think I have him higher or lower?
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#95 » by PistolPeteJR » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:21 pm

70sFan wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
70sFan wrote:At the 9th spot.


Wow, didn't expect for you to have Magic at 9. Knowing that, I guess I can understand Bird at 11.

Did you think I have him higher or lower?


I thought you would have had both in your top-10 quite firmly.
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Re: What is the argument for Bird over Kobe? 

Post#96 » by VanWest82 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:37 am

toodles23 wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:With risk of derailment (my specialty)...

When was the last time someone averaged 20+ shots per game and also credibly guarded POA for the majority of the season? Has it ever happened? That's what Kobe did in 2013 RS which I consider one of the more underrated seasons in NBA history.

The closest I can think of is MJ in 88, though Mike was more of a help defender who'd guard the best guy in certain match ups. But his two way load I'd say was the same.

No to Bird. No to Magic. No to Lebron (who was always more of a back line help defender even in his best defensive seasons). Dream arguably accomplished this feat in the mid 90s (in terms of two way load) but he wasn't picking guys up full court and didn't have the play making responsibilities Kobe had. Stockton never had to carry the offense like that. Nash did this for a couple of playoff series in 2005 but his POA defense certainly wasn't credible. Chris Paul never got there, nor Isiah. Any other candidates I'm missing?

Anyways, 2013 Kobe was unreal, even if only from the standpoint of being willing to take on that challenge, and as a 34 yr old no less.

Uh what? Kobe was utterly abysmal on defense in 2013, something that everybody watching at the time pointed out. He did not guard the point of attack even remotely credibly. No idea what you're talking about here. It was so bad Zach Lowe even wrote an article about it:

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/an-open-letter-to-kobe-bryant-about-his-defense/

How many of those games did you actually watch? Forget Zach Lowe, who we know watches them but also covers all teams and doesn't watch all the games. Nash was my favorite player and I probably caught 60-70 Lakers games that year.

With all due respect to Lowe whom I like, he has/had an anto-Kobe bias that article didn't accurately reflect his contributions. Go talk to Lakers fans who actually watched that season. Kobe was Herculean. Yes, he was still prone to over-aggressive mistakes and transition lapses as he was throughout his career, but he did an enviable job chasing Steve's man around screens while having to carry most of the play making responsibility (and scoring) in MDA's offense because Steve couldn't couldn't get it done after the leg break. It was very impressive.

Anyone trying to claim otherwise didn't watch the games and is guilty of not doing their homework. Further, I'd argue Kobe going full out at both ends for the last half of that season is a big part of the reason he snapped his achilles.

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