RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 - 2012-13 LeBron James

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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#81 » by MyUniBroDavis » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:46 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Some questions to ponder at this stage

Magic vs curry for "one way" offensive peaks: neither 87 magic nor 17 curry (temptative choices for both peaks) are particularly good on defense, both led a all time offense but magic arguably did it with less overall talent

For people bringing curry in their top 3 or top 5? What makes him better than magic?

And perhaps more hot take.....is he necesarilly better than peak nash? Nash also led a historical offense (multiple times) with no more offensive talent (arguably less) although his defense may be worse than curry?


I used to be pretty low on Curry's 2017 regular season but it's actually his best season by quite a margin by PI RAPM so combined with a very strong play-off run it's definitely a competitive peak. I think 87 Magic has slight edges in both the regular season and the play-offs but I'll probably have them really close.


One thing I'll note: Curry's '16-17 PI RAPM is going to benefit from having '15-16 as its prior.

I'm still using '16-17 as the year I'm choosing because I think he was simply playing better in the playoffs while otherwise being above reproach, but that '15-16 regular season was something else.


Do we have pi rapm for 2017? I thought it was npi?
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#82 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:10 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
I used to be pretty low on Curry's 2017 regular season but it's actually his best season by quite a margin by PI RAPM so combined with a very strong play-off run it's definitely a competitive peak. I think 87 Magic has slight edges in both the regular season and the play-offs but I'll probably have them really close.


One thing I'll note: Curry's '16-17 PI RAPM is going to benefit from having '15-16 as its prior.

I'm still using '16-17 as the year I'm choosing because I think he was simply playing better in the playoffs while otherwise being above reproach, but that '15-16 regular season was something else.


Do we have pi rapm for 2017? I thought it was npi?


I was just speaking generally, so cannot answer this question.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#83 » by ardee » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:53 pm

70sFan wrote:
ardee wrote:I still can't decide Wilt vs Hakeem vs Duncan for my fourth vote here.

Hakeem and Duncan had all-time carry jobs, while Wilt led an ATG team that rampaged to a title while outplaying his two best positional rivals along the way who were also arguably the two best defenders at that position ever.

All three were statistical monsters, though Wilt obviously had the pace advantage.

70sFan wrote:


You have access to per 75 inflated stats right? Could you post them for '67 Wilt, '94 Hakeem and '03 Duncan?

Sure:

1967 Wilt in RS: 8.0 BPM, 2.7 OBPM, 1.8 ScoreVal, 1.1 PlayVal, 17.7 pts/75 on +14.4 rTS%, 2.6 BoxCreation, 6.1 PassRat, +5.0 rORtg
1967 Wilt in PS: 8.1 BPM, 2.1 OBPM, 1.2 ScoreVal, 0.8 PlayVal, 15.5 pts/75 on +6.5 rTS%, 2.8 BoxCreation, 7.9 PassRat, +3.3 rORtg

1994 Hakeem in RS: 6.0 BPM, 2.1 OBPM, 1.1 ScoreVal, -0.2 PlayVal, 26.3 pts/75 on +3.7 rTS%, 4.7 BoxCreation, 4.2 PassRat, -0.4 rORtg
1994 Hakeem in PS: 8.0 BPM, 3.7 OBPM, 1.7 ScoreVal, 0.2 PlayVal, 28.7 pts/75 on +4.9 rTS%, 6.2 BoxCreation, 4.9 PassRat, +4.2 rORtg

2003 Duncan in RS: 6.3 BPM, 3.4 OBPM, 1.1 ScoreVal, 0.4 PlayVal, 25.1 pts/75 on +4.5 rTS%, 4.3 BoxCreation, 6.3 PassRat, +2.0 rORtg
2003 Duncan in PS: 8.7 BPM, 4.5 OBPM, 1.5 ScoreVal, 0.6 PlayVal, 24.8 pts/75 on +6.2 rTS%, 4.9 BoxCreation, 7.3 PassRat, +1.8 rORtg


Thank you, good sir.

I really still can't decide, but I think for now I'm gonna go with Hakeem and not overthink too much because 1) I think he's the best defender of the 3 and 2) that jump in all offensive stats going into the Playoffs is very impressive to me, especially given his lack of offensive support and the fact that he played a historic Knicks defense in the Finals.

I used to have Wilt at 1 but I really think he might be down to 6 for me this project. Trying to be as objective as possible.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#84 » by ardee » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:57 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:1. 2012 Lebron (b. 2013 c. 2016)
2. 2000 Shaq (b. 2001 c. 2002)
3. 1977 Kareem (b. 1974 c. 1980)

Lebron is the best on offense of these three based on his all time great perimeter player role, while still being good on defense. Kareem is probably the best on defense of the three. After last thread I will switch to 12 Lebron due to having a great playoffs, and I still like Miami version more than Cleveland, when his physical tools and skills best overlapped.

I have decided that Shaq and Kareem is close enough that playing 23 years later is enough to make the difference. I really value the difference between generational players and everyone else, but Shaq is unique in that he could have possibly been a Lebron/Jordan/Kareem if he was in great shape his whole career. Likewise I consider the game to have developed quite a bit in between 00 and 12 although it's not the only reason I've voting for Lebron ahead of him who is essentially a perfect basketball player. Lebron's leadership is also better than Shaq to me.


I have Kareem at 3 behind LeBron and Jordan on my ATL so in a sense I agree that he is a "generational" player, because he basically was THE guy in the league from 1970 until Bird won his first MVP, but do you not think it's likely to say that his generational status comes moreso from his longevity? Just because he was the dominant player of his time doesn't mean that he was as good at his peak as the other two?
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#85 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:14 am

ardee wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:1. 2012 Lebron (b. 2013 c. 2016)
2. 2000 Shaq (b. 2001 c. 2002)
3. 1977 Kareem (b. 1974 c. 1980)

Lebron is the best on offense of these three based on his all time great perimeter player role, while still being good on defense. Kareem is probably the best on defense of the three. After last thread I will switch to 12 Lebron due to having a great playoffs, and I still like Miami version more than Cleveland, when his physical tools and skills best overlapped.

I have decided that Shaq and Kareem is close enough that playing 23 years later is enough to make the difference. I really value the difference between generational players and everyone else, but Shaq is unique in that he could have possibly been a Lebron/Jordan/Kareem if he was in great shape his whole career. Likewise I consider the game to have developed quite a bit in between 00 and 12 although it's not the only reason I've voting for Lebron ahead of him who is essentially a perfect basketball player. Lebron's leadership is also better than Shaq to me.


I have Kareem at 3 behind LeBron and Jordan on my ATL so in a sense I agree that he is a "generational" player, because he basically was THE guy in the league from 1970 until Bird won his first MVP, but do you not think it's likely to say that his generational status comes moreso from his longevity? Just because he was the dominant player of his time doesn't mean that he was as good at his peak as the other two?


I have Kareem as being as dominant for his league as Lebron/MJ if not moreso and I consider them the three players after the shotclock to really be the clear guy like that. However it is less impressive than for either of them due to the competition being worse (both to the 70s being 50 years ago, and due to some other factors like the ABA, injuries/drugs, etc.)

Like Shaq, Kareem is one of the only times the best offensive player in the league has been a center, which when added to his defensive impact is pretty significant.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#86 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:30 am

Vote:

2. LeBron James ('15-16)

Image

If we factor in physical durability and longevity to physical talent, LeBron is probably the GOAT talent. His body and game have aged so well that there's probably more fruitful comparison to be had comparing LeBron vs LeBron than any other star with himself.

I do think LeBron at any age lacks the motor and every-game intensity edge Jordan had, to say nothing of Jordan's hand size advantage which Jordan made great use of, but it seems like in no matter what stage of LeBron's career you look, he's got an unfair set of strengths.

For me, the debate over which LeBron year settles down to the best years from his first 3 stints: '08-09, '12-13 & '15-16. (Shout outs to '11-12 & '16-17 which are both obvious candidates for his 2nd best year.)

I think it's important not to take '08-09 too lightly. Prior to that Magic series, we were all getting ready to say that LeBron was the best basketball player the world had ever seen. They get upset in that series...but anyone watching it with unbiased eyes will see that that really wasn't about LeBron doing anything wrong. They played a great opponent, and they got cold while the other team got hot. In another universe, the Cavs get to the finals that year at the very least.

I don't think LeBron has ever had another year as impactful as '08-09, and I don't think he deserves to be criticized for the upset loss...nevertheless, after '08-09, we saw LeBron get flummoxed a couple times against strong, smart defenses that in later years, he wouldn't, and defensively, he'd hit a new level in Miami.

I think LeBron was probably at the peak of his powers in Miami. He adapted to work within a scheme based on the talent around him, and he worked his ass off on defense, all while being savvier than he'd been before he left Cleveland the first time. It makes a ton of sense to pick this era of LeBron, however:

A thing we tend to brush aside nowadays as we gush about Spo's genius, is that for all the sophistication of the Heatle team approach, the 2nd stint Cavs had a more effective offense. I think the reality is that in '15-16, LeBron was playing as if in the nexus of a web he'd spun to allow him to be able to make anything happen he could think to make happen, and this made him more effective.

I think that you could argue that the Heat played how they needed to play based on how LeBron/Wade/Bosh worked together, but if you're playing less effectively in a given context than you could in another context, well, it's probably not when you were at the former where you hit your peak.

3. Steph Curry ('16-17)

Image

Obviously I've been thinking a lot about Curry lately. Got myself in a situation where I realized there just aren't many guys I'm comfortable siding with Curry against. The reality at this point is that Curry has essentially dictated the course of the NBA since '14-15, at which time he and his team spearheaded what now can clearly be seen as a new era.

While I'm not making this list simply as a "Who would do better in the current era?" thing, in any comparison with Curry I find it impossible not to ask a similar question...and since Curry has a serious case at this for being the closest thing to an ideal player for the current era, that gives him a candidacy for #1.

In the end, he's behind Jordan & LeBron because I still have more confidence in them in any given basketball situation than I do with Curry. It's possible that in 20 years, there will be many guys doing what Curry does now, but short of the human race going through another massive improvement in diet and environment, Jordan & LeBron have bodies that are just extreme outliers for what the human race seems capable of.

As for which year I'm picking Curry, well it's tough. To me there are 5 candidates to consider: '14-15, '15-16, '16-17 & '20-21 & '21-22.

'14-15 is the year where he gets both MVP and the chip.
'15-16 sees him clearly get a lot better than before, but he plays poorly in the playoffs.
'16-17 sees him playing optimal basketball as the MVP of the greatest team in the history of basketball...but his team is less dependent on him.

'20-21 sees him come back from injury and once again becomes the best player in the world...for part of the year, on a team that can't quite make the playoffs.

'21-22 sees him lead a team to the chip again, looking like he knows all the right buttons to push when he needs to...but he spends majors chunks of the year not shooting very well.

The more I thought about this, the more '16-17 made sense. While it makes sense that if you came to certain conclusions about what Curry fundamentally could and could not do in the previous playoffs, '16-17 was basically doomed to be an experiment that didn't have the potential to yield the necessary result to elevate Curry higher, if you're someone like me who felt that Curry playing worse in the '15-16 playoffs was mostly about Curry playing worse over a particular interval, then '16-17 is something kinda close to flawless.

Now, I don't expect a lot of people will be swayed by anything here and that's okay, but I did want to point out that this idea that the Warriors stopped being great without Durant after Durant came is never what the data told us.

In 3 years, Curry played 168 games with KD, and 31 without.

In the 168 with KD, Curry had an on-court +/- of +15.7 and the Warriors had an SRS Pace of 66.3.
In the 31 without KD, Curry had an on-court +/- of +17.2 and the Warriors had an SRS Pace of 70.0.

KD's a freaking amazing player and undoubtedly helped the Warriors be better against playoff competition than they already were, but it wasn't a fluke in '18-19 when the Warriors beat the Rockets (and Blazers) without him any more than it was a fluke that the Warriors won 7 playoff series in the two years before KD arrived...any more than it was a fluke that the Warriors just won the title again.

4. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94-95)

Image

So, between '92-93, '93-94 & '94-95, I have to acknowledge I don't see these as different players. To me this was the era where his offense reached virtuoso levels while still having a strong case for the best defensive player in the world. I went with '94-95 because to me that felt like the moment when all the guns were aimed at Hakeem, and one by one, he did his Dream Shake around them.

I've said before that I see the Russell build to be the prototype for the optimal build for a defensive player and that Olajuwon represents the best prospect along those lines since Russell. You add into that that footwork and deft offensive skill that he proved able to just keep getting better and better at it with time...and while he might have seem like a sign of things to come - with him being an international player and all- truly he's just proven to be a unicorn.

Where I have doubts here, it's not so much that I doubt him to be my choice for the classic 5 I'd pick first in today's game, but whether different types of players should be ranked ahead of him.

And to name names:

Bird, Magic, Garnett & Giannis are the ones who would come to mind.

With Bird & Magic, their case is much like Curry's. I don't have a strong feeling about the orders here to be honest - it's not clear cut to me that Curry ranks ahead of Dream, but Bird & Magic do not. But I don't dismiss the jaw-dropping stuff I've seen from Hakeem lightly.

Folks who know me know that I'm super-high on Garnett. Garnett's tricky because his offensive and defensive peak are so clearly separated, and he remains a player I ask "What if?" about a great deal despite the fact that he managed massive impact while being constrained by primitive tactics. Push comes to shove, I can't say that I think the peak effectiveness I saw from Garnett warrants placement above Olajuwon.

Giannis is the obvious elephant in the room, and someone who with time I may grow enough confidence in to move him considerably higher.

I do feel I should add: I'm not sure I'll have these 4 names ahead of Kareem, I only feel sure enough that when looking at the bigs, I like what I see from Olajuwon a bit more than Kareem.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#87 » by Joao Saraiva » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:14 am

Lou Fan wrote:One last plea for people to give Russ some love here. I see the notion that the two way peak guys have to go here and Russ is a full tier below these other peaks. First off, this notion is fundamentally flawed as it doesn't matter what side of the ball your value comes on +7/-1 is the same as +3/+3 and it ignores that Russ is a clear positive on offense. First off, he was a phenomenal offensive rebounder giving him some built in off ball value, but his outlier athleticism also made him an Elite transition attacker which allowed him to be one of the only superstars who was able to successfully raise his volume AND his efficiency in the playoffs. He also was able to function as a high post hub and had a lot of value as a passer.

Of course his big value comes on the defensive side where his impact is an outlier among the outliers. You can see my previous post for more details on that but I just want to note that during Russ's peak (62-65) the Celtics had their worst supporting casts of the whole dynasty. Sharman and Cousy were done and Heinsohn was wearing down. The media narrative was that the celtics dynasty was clearly coming to an end and there would be no champions. This was also before Russ got reinforcements from the next wave of guys, chiefly Hondo who didn't become an all star until 1966. These teams with less help for Russ were the best teams of the entire dynasty. They were lapping the league 15 wins above the second best team on the back of Russ's massive impact. I can see the case for some centers here but he needs to be taken more seriously.


I obviously see you're high on Russell. Without making it seem a bash cause it isn't, but how do you think his defensive impact would replicate in later eras?

I ask this because in a vacuum I don't think Hakeem was a worst defender than Russell, but more elaborate schemes, better outside shooting and a 3 point line make it impossible for him to have the same defensive impact that Russell had. I also think there is a gap on offense that goes his way.

I can't blame Russell for playing when he played and I usually don't, but context tells me that Hakeem's defense should be listed on the same tier because it isn't possible for anyone to even come close to that impact during his era.

Then there comes the obvious discussion... LeBron as a 2 way player in 2009. It takes a massive amount of impact to win 66 games with that roster, and I think LeBron had as great of an impact as he could on defense and probably has the highest offensive peak the game has ever seen. I guess you can say 18 Bron wasn't as good on D or didn't take as much effort in the regular season, or that about him in any version after 2013 (the regular season thing, I think his defense was elite when it mattered during that period, and even after 2018) but in 2009 I'd definitely argue his impact was as big as anyone's.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#88 » by letskissbro » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:41 am

Reposting from the last thread. Been busy lately and don't have the time to do any write ups but I'll put my vote in.

1. 2013 LeBron James
(2009, 2010)
Spoiler:
I still struggle deciding whether LeBron was better in 2013 or 2009/10. From a production and situational impact standpoint, 09 probably has 13 beat. There's something to be said about the raw panic he used to induce simply standing at the perimeter with the ball in his hands in those late Cavs years. Defenders would preemptively load up on his drives like crazy because they knew no matter who they put in front of him they wouldn't be able to keep him from getting to the rim in isolation and this boosted his impact as a playmaker even though he wasn't necessarily a better passer than he was in later years. He still had this effect in Miami but with the extra weight on his frame zapping him of some quickness it wasn't quite to the same degree.

I decided to go with 2013 because from a skillset standpoint, I think he was better than 09/10. With a vastly improved shot, better decision making, and an expanded post game I think I have more faith in him to produce consistently in a variety of coverages against all time level defenses like the 08 Celtics. Many knock this season for his postseason dip, I used to myself, but I've become more forgiving the last few years as I've come to understand it as a situational drop and symptomatic of sharing the floor with Wade, who was a ball dominant guard with basically no off-ball utility.

With Wade off the floor in the 2013 playoffs LeBron averaged

33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
8.6 REB/75
8.6 AST/75
1.8 STL/75
1.2 BLK/75 (0.9 at the rim)

He propelled the Heat to a +17.7 rORtg in these minutes as well (would be the best all time). Even against the Spurs, the series that people remember for LeBron struggling, Miami fielded an insane 131.3 offensive rating with LeBron on the court and Wade off.

Sample size is 282 minutes. If that isn't large enough he averaged 36.5 per 75 on +7.8 rTS% across his entire 3 year peak in Miami from 2012-2014. That's 703 minutes which roughly amounts to 18 games. These numbers are consistent with the regular season too.

Playing off the ball with another ball dominant slasher, while effective enough to win 2 championships, actually was not the most optimal strategy for the Heat and suppressed his raw numbers and impact. If LeBron had the opportunity to play with an off ball motion shooter like Klay or a star guard who could pass and shoot like Kyle Lowry as examples he realistically could've been putting up 2009/2018 playoff numbers every season of his prime.

Some might point this out as a criticism of LeBron's portability but I think Wade's own portability issues get unfairly attributed to LeBron. LeBron himself has shown to mesh well with basically any archetype of player outside of ball dominant, non-shooting guards like Wade or Westbrook. He and Bosh were extremely effective as a duo and worked well off of each other but this was ruined when Wade was on the court. Portability absolutely matters when it comes to secondary stars and role players but it's pretty overrated to me when talking about superstars because teams typically construct their rosters with their best player's strengths and weaknesses in mind.

LeBron gets a bad rap off the ball. He's an elite roll man, an elite secondary passer, the best cutter in the league when he actually gets the opportunity to play with good passers, a great post player, and shot 40% on catch and shoot 3s in Miami. He actually shot a higher percentage on perimeter shots than MVP Kevin Durant as well, 42.5% to 40.8%. If this doesn't constitute elite off-ball play then I don't know what could outside of running around off the ball and shooting 3s like Reggie Miller.

I have LeBron as the 2nd best scorer ever behind Jordan and a top ~5 playmaker ever as well. He and Jordan are the two best offensive players ever in my eyes. I think that they separate themselves from the pack with their volume scoring and postseason resiliency.

As a defender I think LeBron is very underrated, and this is mostly where he separates himself from MJ. This is in part due to his tendency to take it easy at times in the regular season, and his best years coming on relatively weak defensive teams. His defensive prowess is illustrated in '98-'18 PS DRAPM.

Among perimeter players (2000+ MP)

1. Manu Ginobili (3.52)
2. LeBron James (2.20)
3. Kawhi Leonard ( 2.09)
4. Tony Allen (2.09)
5. Josh Howard (2.00)
6. Shawn Marion (1.84)
7. Paul George (1.72)
8. Jason Kidd (1.70)
9. Tayshaun Prince (1.67)
10. Rajon Rondo (1.64)
11. Bruce Bowen (1.53)
12. Danny Green (1.50)
13. Mike Conley (1.40)
14. Dwyane Wade (1.37)
15. Luol Deng (1.25)
16. Metta World Peace (1.23)
17. Kyle Lowry (1.22)

Ignoring Ginobili, who despite being great looks to be a pretty big outlier because of likely collinearity issues with Duncan, LeBron comes out as the most impactful perimeter defender since '98. And that's on a significantly larger sample size than anybody after him. What makes this even more impressive is that LeBron acted as the primary defensive anchor for his teams for basically the entirety of his prime, unlike Tony Allen who had Gasol or Kawhi Leonard who had Tim Duncan.

So in the end I consider LeBron to be at minimum, a top ~3 offensive player ever and, at his best, a defender who rivals the impact of Scottie Pippen and Kawhi Leonard. He's my #1.


2. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
Spoiler:
This is the one year everything really came together for Shaq. After 2022 Jokic I think this is the best offensive season by a center ever. Defensively he was solid and was a borderline elite rim protector. On the perimeter he was exploitable and this would be a much bigger issue in today's league for sure but in 2000 most teams didn't really have a way to consistently take advantage of this. What puts Shaq over the top is the unmatched defensive attention he got at the rim. I'm higher on Kareem's peak than I used to be and could still be persuaded to put him third but I'm just not there yet.


3. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#89 » by Proxy » Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:58 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Folks who know me know that I'm super-high on Garnett. Garnett's tricky because his offensive and defensive peak are so clearly separated, and he remains a player I ask "What if?" about a great deal despite the fact that he managed massive impact while being constrained by primitive tactics. Push comes to shove, I can't say that I think the peak effectiveness I saw from Garnett warrants placement above Olajuwon.


How sure are you that his offensive and defensive peaks are actually so clearly separated? Isn't it just possible he was utilized in a way that was catering to his strengths more in Boston despite not having any significantly different(or even worse in the first place) skillset in Minnesota? Shouldn't this arguably apply to Hakeem even more so when comparing his 1989/90 seasons to his 94/95 years when many people would argue he clearly lost a step?

Interested in how you feel about that and what you are seeing on film because I haven't actually heard that opinion before, maybe you just value highly the perceived improved prowess as a communicator in Boston for KG?
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#90 » by capfan33 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:59 am

Joao Saraiva wrote:
Lou Fan wrote:One last plea for people to give Russ some love here. I see the notion that the two way peak guys have to go here and Russ is a full tier below these other peaks. First off, this notion is fundamentally flawed as it doesn't matter what side of the ball your value comes on +7/-1 is the same as +3/+3 and it ignores that Russ is a clear positive on offense. First off, he was a phenomenal offensive rebounder giving him some built in off ball value, but his outlier athleticism also made him an Elite transition attacker which allowed him to be one of the only superstars who was able to successfully raise his volume AND his efficiency in the playoffs. He also was able to function as a high post hub and had a lot of value as a passer.

Of course his big value comes on the defensive side where his impact is an outlier among the outliers. You can see my previous post for more details on that but I just want to note that during Russ's peak (62-65) the Celtics had their worst supporting casts of the whole dynasty. Sharman and Cousy were done and Heinsohn was wearing down. The media narrative was that the celtics dynasty was clearly coming to an end and there would be no champions. This was also before Russ got reinforcements from the next wave of guys, chiefly Hondo who didn't become an all star until 1966. These teams with less help for Russ were the best teams of the entire dynasty. They were lapping the league 15 wins above the second best team on the back of Russ's massive impact. I can see the case for some centers here but he needs to be taken more seriously.


I obviously see you're high on Russell. Without making it seem a bash cause it isn't, but how do you think his defensive impact would replicate in later eras?

I ask this because in a vacuum I don't think Hakeem was a worst defender than Russell, but more elaborate schemes, better outside shooting and a 3 point line make it impossible for him to have the same defensive impact that Russell had.
I also think there is a gap on offense that goes his way.

I can't blame Russell for playing when he played and I usually don't, but context tells me that Hakeem's defense should be listed on the same tier because it isn't possible for anyone to even come close to that impact during his era.

Then there comes the obvious discussion... LeBron as a 2 way player in 2009. It takes a massive amount of impact to win 66 games with that roster, and I think LeBron had as great of an impact as he could on defense and probably has the highest offensive peak the game has ever seen. I guess you can say 18 Bron wasn't as good on D or didn't take as much effort in the regular season, or that about him in any version after 2013 (the regular season thing, I think his defense was elite when it mattered during that period, and even after 2018) but in 2009 I'd definitely argue his impact was as big as anyone's.
\

Something interesting to add here regarding Russell. Theres a video series by a youtube channel called "hoopsvenue" that has a lot of Ben Taylor-esque analysis with his own CORP valuations, rankings, etc. He has a video of the top-10 defenders ever by impact which obviously has Russell at the top.

I asked him in a vacuum how much better he thought Russell was compared to any other defender ever, and he said about 12% more value than any other defender, which sounds quite reasonable to me. So that's how I've been evaluating Russell with some room for error.

Also, I can re-post the updated DRTGs for the Celtics dynasty once the Russell discussion picks up in future rounds.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#91 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:17 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote:

2. LeBron James ('15-16)



3. Steph Curry ('16-17)
it's not clear cut to me that Curry ranks ahead of Dream, but Bird & Magic do not. But I don't dismiss the jaw-dropping stuff I've seen from Hakeem lightly.
.


So i gotta ask here why can you not see a case for magic and bird?

Both led elite offenses comparable to 17 warriors(magic specially) and is unlikely they were worse defenders (specially bird) and did so with arguably less offensive talent that the 17 warriors
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#92 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:41 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote:

2. LeBron James ('15-16)

Image

If we factor in physical durability and longevity to physical talent, LeBron is probably the GOAT talent. His body and game have aged so well that there's probably more fruitful comparison to be had comparing LeBron vs LeBron than any other star with himself.

I do think LeBron at any age lacks the motor and every-game intensity edge Jordan had, to say nothing of Jordan's hand size advantage which Jordan made great use of, but it seems like in no matter what stage of LeBron's career you look, he's got an unfair set of strengths.

For me, the debate over which LeBron year settles down to the best years from his first 3 stints: '08-09, '12-13 & '15-16. (Shout outs to '11-12 & '16-17 which are both obvious candidates for his 2nd best year.)

I think it's important not to take '08-09 too lightly. Prior to that Magic series, we were all getting ready to say that LeBron was the best basketball player the world had ever seen. They get upset in that series...but anyone watching it with unbiased eyes will see that that really wasn't about LeBron doing anything wrong. They played a great opponent, and they got cold while the other team got hot. In another universe, the Cavs get to the finals that year at the very least.

I don't think LeBron has ever had another year as impactful as '08-09, and I don't think he deserves to be criticized for the upset loss...nevertheless, after '08-09, we saw LeBron get flummoxed a couple times against strong, smart defenses that in later years, he wouldn't, and defensively, he'd hit a new level in Miami.

I think LeBron was probably at the peak of his powers in Miami. He adapted to work within a scheme based on the talent around him, and he worked his ass off on defense, all while being savvier than he'd been before he left Cleveland the first time. It makes a ton of sense to pick this era of LeBron, however:

A thing we tend to brush aside nowadays as we gush about Spo's genius, is that for all the sophistication of the Heatle team approach, the 2nd stint Cavs had a more effective offense. I think the reality is that in '15-16, LeBron was playing as if in the nexus of a web he'd spun to allow him to be able to make anything happen he could think to make happen, and this made him more effective.

I think that you could argue that the Heat played how they needed to play based on how LeBron/Wade/Bosh worked together, but if you're playing less effectively in a given context than you could in another context, well, it's probably not when you were at the former where you hit your peak.

3. Steph Curry ('16-17)

Image

Obviously I've been thinking a lot about Curry lately. Got myself in a situation where I realized there just aren't many guys I'm comfortable siding with Curry against. The reality at this point is that Curry has essentially dictated the course of the NBA since '14-15, at which time he and his team spearheaded what now can clearly be seen as a new era.

While I'm not making this list simply as a "Who would do better in the current era?" thing, in any comparison with Curry I find it impossible not to ask a similar question...and since Curry has a serious case at this for being the closest thing to an ideal player for the current era, that gives him a candidacy for #1.

In the end, he's behind Jordan & LeBron because I still have more confidence in them in any given basketball situation than I do with Curry. It's possible that in 20 years, there will be many guys doing what Curry does now, but short of the human race going through another massive improvement in diet and environment, Jordan & LeBron have bodies that are just extreme outliers for what the human race seems capable of.

As for which year I'm picking Curry, well it's tough. To me there are 5 candidates to consider: '14-15, '15-16, '16-17 & '20-21 & '21-22.

'14-15 is the year where he gets both MVP and the chip.
'15-16 sees him clearly get a lot better than before, but he plays poorly in the playoffs.
'16-17 sees him playing optimal basketball as the MVP of the greatest team in the history of basketball...but his team is less dependent on him.

'20-21 sees him come back from injury and once again becomes the best player in the world...for part of the year, on a team that can't quite make the playoffs.

'21-22 sees him lead a team to the chip again, looking like he knows all the right buttons to push when he needs to...but he spends majors chunks of the year not shooting very well.

The more I thought about this, the more '16-17 made sense. While it makes sense that if you came to certain conclusions about what Curry fundamentally could and could not do in the previous playoffs, '16-17 was basically doomed to be an experiment that didn't have the potential to yield the necessary result to elevate Curry higher, if you're someone like me who felt that Curry playing worse in the '15-16 playoffs was mostly about Curry playing worse over a particular interval, then '16-17 is something kinda close to flawless.

Now, I don't expect a lot of people will be swayed by anything here and that's okay, but I did want to point out that this idea that the Warriors stopped being great without Durant after Durant came is never what the data told us.

In 3 years, Curry played 168 games with KD, and 31 without.

In the 168 with KD, Curry had an on-court +/- of +15.7 and the Warriors had an SRS Pace of 66.3.
In the 31 without KD, Curry had an on-court +/- of +17.2 and the Warriors had an SRS Pace of 70.0.

KD's a freaking amazing player and undoubtedly helped the Warriors be better against playoff competition than they already were, but it wasn't a fluke in '18-19 when the Warriors beat the Rockets (and Blazers) without him any more than it was a fluke that the Warriors won 7 playoff series in the two years before KD arrived...any more than it was a fluke that the Warriors just won the title again.

4. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94-95)

Image

So, between '92-93, '93-94 & '94-95, I have to acknowledge I don't see these as different players. To me this was the era where his offense reached virtuoso levels while still having a strong case for the best defensive player in the world. I went with '94-95 because to me that felt like the moment when all the guns were aimed at Hakeem, and one by one, he did his Dream Shake around them.

I've said before that I see the Russell build to be the prototype for the optimal build for a defensive player and that Olajuwon represents the best prospect along those lines since Russell. You add into that that footwork and deft offensive skill that he proved able to just keep getting better and better at it with time...and while he might have seem like a sign of things to come - with him being an international player and all- truly he's just proven to be a unicorn.

Where I have doubts here, it's not so much that I doubt him to be my choice for the classic 5 I'd pick first in today's game, but whether different types of players should be ranked ahead of him.

And to name names:

Bird, Magic, Garnett & Giannis are the ones who would come to mind.

With Bird & Magic, their case is much like Curry's. I don't have a strong feeling about the orders here to be honest - it's not clear cut to me that Curry ranks ahead of Dream, but Bird & Magic do not. But I don't dismiss the jaw-dropping stuff I've seen from Hakeem lightly.

Folks who know me know that I'm super-high on Garnett. Garnett's tricky because his offensive and defensive peak are so clearly separated, and he remains a player I ask "What if?" about a great deal despite the fact that he managed massive impact while being constrained by primitive tactics. Push comes to shove, I can't say that I think the peak effectiveness I saw from Garnett warrants placement above Olajuwon.

Giannis is the obvious elephant in the room, and someone who with time I may grow enough confidence in to move him considerably higher.

I do feel I should add: I'm not sure I'll have these 4 names ahead of Kareem, I only feel sure enough that when looking at the bigs, I like what I see from Olajuwon a bit more than Kareem.


I know you mentioned there could be a Curry 20 years from now, while MJ and Lebron are physical outliers...but do you not expect there to be some talent in the next 20 years who has maybe MJ and Lebron physical talent (even if perhaps they are not as good). For instance, many would argue Wilt/Shaq too maybe be in the MJ/Lebron tier of physical talent, even if they do not consider them to be GOAT candidates because of inconsistencies throughout their career.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#93 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:43 am

capfan33 wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:
Lou Fan wrote:One last plea for people to give Russ some love here. I see the notion that the two way peak guys have to go here and Russ is a full tier below these other peaks. First off, this notion is fundamentally flawed as it doesn't matter what side of the ball your value comes on +7/-1 is the same as +3/+3 and it ignores that Russ is a clear positive on offense. First off, he was a phenomenal offensive rebounder giving him some built in off ball value, but his outlier athleticism also made him an Elite transition attacker which allowed him to be one of the only superstars who was able to successfully raise his volume AND his efficiency in the playoffs. He also was able to function as a high post hub and had a lot of value as a passer.

Of course his big value comes on the defensive side where his impact is an outlier among the outliers. You can see my previous post for more details on that but I just want to note that during Russ's peak (62-65) the Celtics had their worst supporting casts of the whole dynasty. Sharman and Cousy were done and Heinsohn was wearing down. The media narrative was that the celtics dynasty was clearly coming to an end and there would be no champions. This was also before Russ got reinforcements from the next wave of guys, chiefly Hondo who didn't become an all star until 1966. These teams with less help for Russ were the best teams of the entire dynasty. They were lapping the league 15 wins above the second best team on the back of Russ's massive impact. I can see the case for some centers here but he needs to be taken more seriously.


I obviously see you're high on Russell. Without making it seem a bash cause it isn't, but how do you think his defensive impact would replicate in later eras?

I ask this because in a vacuum I don't think Hakeem was a worst defender than Russell, but more elaborate schemes, better outside shooting and a 3 point line make it impossible for him to have the same defensive impact that Russell had.
I also think there is a gap on offense that goes his way.

I can't blame Russell for playing when he played and I usually don't, but context tells me that Hakeem's defense should be listed on the same tier because it isn't possible for anyone to even come close to that impact during his era.

Then there comes the obvious discussion... LeBron as a 2 way player in 2009. It takes a massive amount of impact to win 66 games with that roster, and I think LeBron had as great of an impact as he could on defense and probably has the highest offensive peak the game has ever seen. I guess you can say 18 Bron wasn't as good on D or didn't take as much effort in the regular season, or that about him in any version after 2013 (the regular season thing, I think his defense was elite when it mattered during that period, and even after 2018) but in 2009 I'd definitely argue his impact was as big as anyone's.
\

Something interesting to add here regarding Russell. Theres a video series by a youtube channel called "hoopsvenue" that has a lot of Ben Taylor-esque analysis with his own CORP valuations, rankings, etc. He has a video of the top-10 defenders ever by impact which obviously has Russell at the top.

I asked him in a vacuum how much better he thought Russell was compared to any other defender ever, and he said about 12% more value than any other defender, which sounds quite reasonable to me. So that's how I've been evaluating Russell with some room for error.

Also, I can re-post the updated DRTGs for the Celtics dynasty once the Russell discussion picks up in future rounds.


Funny enough, I asked Ben Taylor if he could decide between having peak defense, Hakeem, KG, or Bill Russell in today's NBA, who would he take, and he sided with Garnett.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#94 » by Blazers-1977 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:56 am

1. 1999-00 Shaq: This was Shaq at the peak of his powers offensively and defensively imo and unlike in 2001 and 2002, Kobe has not developed into a Super Star yet which made Shaq have to carry more of the load than he did in 01 and 02 which is why I would say 2000 was the peak of his career.

2. 1970-71 Kareem: I feel that he peaked offensively with the Bucks and imo getting swept in 1977 puts that season below this season

3. 2002-03 Duncan: Led a team with an Robinson on the verge of retiring and a Young Parker and Manu to the championship and beating out the Shaq/Kobe Lakers attempet at a 4 peat too . He clearly carried the team on offense and defense here and elevated his game in the post season too
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#95 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 am

Proxy wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Folks who know me know that I'm super-high on Garnett. Garnett's tricky because his offensive and defensive peak are so clearly separated, and he remains a player I ask "What if?" about a great deal despite the fact that he managed massive impact while being constrained by primitive tactics. Push comes to shove, I can't say that I think the peak effectiveness I saw from Garnett warrants placement above Olajuwon.


How sure are you that his offensive and defensive peaks are actually so clearly separated? Isn't it just possible he was utilized in a way that was catering to his strengths more in Boston despite not having any significantly different(or even worse in the first place) skillset in Minnesota? Shouldn't this arguably apply to Hakeem even more so when comparing his 1989/90 seasons to his 94/95 years when many people would argue he clearly lost a step?

Interested in how you feel about that and what you are seeing on film because I haven't actually heard that opinion before, maybe you just value highly the perceived improved prowess as a communicator in Boston for KG?


Oh to be clear, I'm referring specifically to the fact that Garnett was vastly better utilized in Boston compared to his physical prime. As I alluded to, the fact that NBA strategy was so primitive toward Garnett for most of his career absolutely held back his peak performance.

Now, I'm not going to be the one that tells others what you can and cannot say was a player's peak was - what he did that contributed toward great things happening in the NBA, or what he would have been capable of the world wasn't so wrong - but in general, I'm careful about giving too much credit for what should have happened.

Example: I generally don't bring up Steve Nash as an all-star candidate until his teams are smart enough to start him. :D

Re: Hakeem. In the era I'm talking about, Hakeem has an excellent case for being both the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA. You can certainly argue that his defense was even better when he was younger, but overall, his play with Rudy T seems to me clearly to be his best performance.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#96 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:20 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote:

2. LeBron James ('15-16)



3. Steph Curry ('16-17)
it's not clear cut to me that Curry ranks ahead of Dream, but Bird & Magic do not. But I don't dismiss the jaw-dropping stuff I've seen from Hakeem lightly.
.


So i gotta ask here why can you not see a case for magic and bird?

Both led elite offenses comparable to 17 warriors(magic specially) and is unlikely they were worse defenders (specially bird) and did so with arguably less offensive talent that the 17 warriors


I didn't mean to imply I couldn't see a case. I was trying to emphasize that there was not a clear cut distinction not that there was. My apologies for the confusing language.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#97 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
I know you mentioned there could be a Curry 20 years from now, while MJ and Lebron are physical outliers...but do you not expect there to be some talent in the next 20 years who has maybe MJ and Lebron physical talent (even if perhaps they are not as good). For instance, many would argue Wilt/Shaq too maybe be in the MJ/Lebron tier of physical talent, even if they do not consider them to be GOAT candidates because of inconsistencies throughout their career.


Anything can happen. I wasn't trying to diminish what Curry was doing, rather I was trying to emphasize how new what he was doing was, and how much we don't yet know about how we'll see him decades from now.

By contrast, all the other players in question are kind of boring outliers. They all look like supermen, and as long as the general distribution of human males doesn't result in there being tons more supermen, their degree of outlier-ness will probably be pretty consistent.

Incidentally on that last point: Such a distribution shift absolutely happened in the 20th century and we really don't appear to see any supermen - by our standards of today - born before 1930. While it's possible they just didn't come to our attention, health and nutrition are a big deal.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#98 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:16 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Re: Hakeem. In the era I'm talking about, Hakeem has an excellent case for being both the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA. You can certainly argue that his defense was even better when he was younger, but overall, his play with Rudy T seems to me clearly to be his best performance.


I don't intend to get into this Hakeem argument for a few threads, but not sure I'd agree with this.

To put it in perspective Hakeem in 1995 puts up a career high 27.8ppg in the regular season, and then 33ppg in the playoffs. His efficiency is fine (.563 TS%) and his assists and turnovers aren't bad. Despite that, he is actually only 26th in OBPM, and 29th in OWS this season (If you adjust for only playing 72 games, he'd be more like 21st-22nd in OWS). If he's the best offensive player in the league, those stats would both have to be quite a way off. To put it in perspective, Embiid has been top 4 in OBPM the last two seasons, and at a top 5 OWS rate. Duncan once led the league in OWS and has been top 5 in OBPM a few times. Hakeem's 93 and 94 are a little better, but not spectacular (93 - 7th OWS, 10th OBPM, 94 - 10th OWS, 12th OBPM). It's not that Hakeem's numbers are bad, they're still better than a player like Elvin Hayes and moderately better in 93/94 at least than peak Ewing, but many players in the league are either more efficient or better playmakers than him, and post centers are supposed to be less valuable than elite level perimeter players on offense, I don't think it'd be that weird to say prime Price is better on offense than Hakeem for example, he is just an insane amount less valuable on defense. Even Hakeem's 95 playoff WS/48 is actually a modest .143 WS/48, the Rockets as a team have their DWS deflated in the playoffs due to it being mostly an offensive driven run, but he still finishes behind Drexler (.167) despite his mega 33/10/4/3.

Boxscore advanced stats aren't the end all, but at the least it's worth asking at least as a starting point, why? For example one thing I noticed is that Hakeem is actually one of the least efficient players on his team in the 95 playoff run, his TS% only ranking above 15mpg Chucky Brown. One reason is that for taking 26 shots per game, 7.4 free throw attempts is not all that much. Drexler in comparison averages 6.4 attempts in the playoffs on 14.7 field goals. It might seem crazy to suggest that Drexler is better on offense than Hakeem that year, but that's what OWS and OBPM say. Is it? It'd be impossible for him to not have a PPG deficit when he is shooting under 15 times a game instead of 26. On the other hand his perimeter role gives him a different function that could have been highly valuable, and this is a player that to me had a better offensive prime than Hakeem. And actually despite how because of his down 93 and 94 seasons it's thought that 95 Drexler is a different tier than his Blazers days, his regular season stats and half season for the Blazers in 95, are actually not that different than say 91, and he is only about 7 months older than Hakeem.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#99 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:07 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Somethingh i wanna start asking is how gap do we think the gap between bill russel defense and hakeem or wilt or duncan defense is?

Not only Russell, I think Thurmond is easily clear of them too. Probably the same with fully engaged Wilt.


ftr, while I think Thurmond is probably the GOAT big-man man defender in history, but that's never what's made big men the most valuable defenders in the game, and this is all the more true when you're not actually facing a team that's trying to run its offense through an interior scorer...which is what's been the case for most of the great offenses in history.

None of this is to say that Thurmond isn't also a help defender, but it wasn't his signature the way it was for Russell, who as player-coach would literally assign another man to guard Wilt so that he could focus on help defense.

I hear you and in general I'd agree, but considering the characteristics of the era (in 2022 being a nightmare-inducing post defender is not really that relevant, but of course in the 60s-70s a surprising number of offenses ran through there) and his massive plus-minus signals, I have no doubt his impact lays somewhere between the Duncans and Hakeems and Russell.

Defensive impact, that is. Offense... blergh.
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Re: RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #2 

Post#100 » by ardee » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:38 am

Dr Positivity wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Re: Hakeem. In the era I'm talking about, Hakeem has an excellent case for being both the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA. You can certainly argue that his defense was even better when he was younger, but overall, his play with Rudy T seems to me clearly to be his best performance.


I don't intend to get into this Hakeem argument for a few threads, but not sure I'd agree with this.

To put it in perspective Hakeem in 1995 puts up a career high 27.8ppg in the regular season, and then 33ppg in the playoffs. His efficiency is fine (.563 TS%) and his assists and turnovers aren't bad. Despite that, he is actually only 26th in OBPM, and 29th in OWS this season (If you adjust for only playing 72 games, he'd be more like 21st-22nd in OWS). If he's the best offensive player in the league, those stats would both have to be quite a way off. To put it in perspective, Embiid has been top 4 in OBPM the last two seasons, and at a top 5 OWS rate. Duncan once led the league in OWS and has been top 5 in OBPM a few times. Hakeem's 93 and 94 are a little better, but not spectacular (93 - 7th OWS, 10th OBPM, 94 - 10th OWS, 12th OBPM). It's not that Hakeem's numbers are bad, they're still better than a player like Elvin Hayes and moderately better in 93/94 at least than peak Ewing, but many players in the league are either more efficient or better playmakers than him, and post centers are supposed to be less valuable than elite level perimeter players on offense, I don't think it'd be that weird to say prime Price is better on offense than Hakeem for example, he is just an insane amount less valuable on defense. Even Hakeem's 95 playoff WS/48 is actually a modest .143 WS/48, the Rockets as a team have their DWS deflated in the playoffs due to it being mostly an offensive driven run, but he still finishes behind Drexler (.167) despite his mega 33/10/4/3.

Boxscore advanced stats aren't the end all, but at the least it's worth asking at least as a starting point, why? For example one thing I noticed is that Hakeem is actually one of the least efficient players on his team in the 95 playoff run, his TS% only ranking above 15mpg Chucky Brown. One reason is that for taking 26 shots per game, 7.4 free throw attempts is not all that much. Drexler in comparison averages 6.4 attempts in the playoffs on 14.7 field goals. It might seem crazy to suggest that Drexler is better on offense than Hakeem that year, but that's what OWS and OBPM say. Is it? It'd be impossible for him to not have a PPG deficit when he is shooting under 15 times a game instead of 26. On the other hand his perimeter role gives him a different function that could have been highly valuable, and this is a player that to me had a better offensive prime than Hakeem. And actually despite how because of his down 93 and 94 seasons it's thought that 95 Drexler is a different tier than his Blazers days, his regular season stats and half season for the Blazers in 95, are actually not that different than say 91, and he is only about 7 months older than Hakeem.


I think stars just don't get calls sometimes later in their careers. LeBron certainly has gotten burned by the refs during his 2nd Cleveland run IMO.

Also, using OWS and OBPM to imply that Hakeem was contributing less on offense than someone like Mark Price is kind of denying what we saw in front of us. He scored that much because he needed to: and the teams won as a consequence. Would it be worth his advanced box stats look nicer if he passed up some shots, some of which he ended up missing, but then were taken by role players instead, and then because of his reduced role the team lost?

You know who never led the league in OBPM? Magic Johnson, haha. And I'm pretty confident he was the best player in the league on that end a lot of years.

I guess what I'm asking is, what more would you have wanted Hakeem to do on that end in those years... I agree big man volume scoring isn't a great option most times... except this was one of the times it worked and they won two titles on the back of it.

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