ImageImageImage

Grant Williams Thread

Moderators: bisme37, Parliament10, canman1971, shackles10, snowman, Froob, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts

Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 41,064
And1: 27,932
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#341 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:55 pm

BK_2020 wrote:So Grant Williams has been a poor defender by the free of charge metrics, starting with on/off where he was just a passable defender in his first two seasons and became a 5th percentile guy last season. He's the 31st PF in overall D-RAPTOR, sandwiched around Kristaps and Kevin Love. On/Off RAPTOR has him tied for 58th wit Bojan and just below Kuzma. D-LEBRON has him just above Kevin Love and Randle. Obviously very low in the rankings.
He's a smart player who gives a lot of effort but I think he is just too physically challenged.


Might on/off metrics be affected by the fact that he usually subs for Timelord or Horford?
Banned temporarily for, among other sins, being "Extremely Deviant".
hugepatsfan
General Manager
Posts: 8,884
And1: 9,350
Joined: May 28, 2020
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#342 » by hugepatsfan » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:06 pm

BK_2020 wrote:So Grant Williams has been a poor defender by the free of charge metrics, starting with on/off where he was just a passable defender in his first two seasons and became a 5th percentile guy last season. He's the 31st PF in overall D-RAPTOR, sandwiched around Kristaps and Kevin Love. On/Off RAPTOR has him tied for 58th wit Bojan and just below Kuzma. D-LEBRON has him just above Kevin Love and Randle. Obviously very low in the rankings.
He's a smart player who gives a lot of effort but I think he is just too physically challenged.


Anytime you see data like that it warrants further investigation. You can never discount that. But that seems very off.

Agreed his physical limitations will prevent him from ever being a top 4 guy on a good team. But full MLE is #5-7 type of range and he seems in there for me.
User avatar
Parliament10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 51,835
And1: 61,057
Joined: Jul 24, 2009
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#343 » by Parliament10 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:15 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:So Grant Williams has been a poor defender by the free of charge metrics, starting with on/off where he was just a passable defender in his first two seasons and became a 5th percentile guy last season. He's the 31st PF in overall D-RAPTOR, sandwiched around Kristaps and Kevin Love. On/Off RAPTOR has him tied for 58th wit Bojan and just below Kuzma. D-LEBRON has him just above Kevin Love and Randle. Obviously very low in the rankings.
He's a smart player who gives a lot of effort but I think he is just too physically challenged.


Anytime you see data like that it warrants further investigation. You can never discount that. But that seems very off.

Agreed his physical limitations will prevent him from ever being a top 4 guy on a good team. But full MLE is #5-7 type of range and he seems in there for me.

Grant Williams is a Backup, at present. -- Those Stats just confirm that he's someone we need.
Going forward, he's at least a 6th-Man, and at most our future PF.
"You have to put the work in.
Nothing is given."

~ Jayson Tatum
BK_2020
RealGM
Posts: 17,031
And1: 15,764
Joined: Sep 08, 2020
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#344 » by BK_2020 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:37 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:So Grant Williams has been a poor defender by the free of charge metrics, starting with on/off where he was just a passable defender in his first two seasons and became a 5th percentile guy last season. He's the 31st PF in overall D-RAPTOR, sandwiched around Kristaps and Kevin Love. On/Off RAPTOR has him tied for 58th wit Bojan and just below Kuzma. D-LEBRON has him just above Kevin Love and Randle. Obviously very low in the rankings.
He's a smart player who gives a lot of effort but I think he is just too physically challenged.


Anytime you see data like that it warrants further investigation. You can never discount that. But that seems very off.

Agreed his physical limitations will prevent him from ever being a top 4 guy on a good team. But full MLE is #5-7 type of range and he seems in there for me.

The 56th/57th percentile range doesn't seem too far off. I don't think he's in the bottom 5% of NBA defenders as the 21-22 on/off data says, but he's definitely not good.
chrisab123
RealGM
Posts: 15,212
And1: 10,621
Joined: Jul 07, 2012
         

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#345 » by chrisab123 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:45 pm

Definitely a good trade candidate once allowed. His Value will never be higher. I like him but the Celtics need veterans on the bench that know their roles and someone will overpay for him.
TatumMVP
Rookie
Posts: 1,091
And1: 1,299
Joined: Jun 04, 2021
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#346 » by TatumMVP » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:15 am

We need him to guard Giannis, 4/40 extension will ne ok.
Triple7
RealGM
Posts: 12,625
And1: 9,537
Joined: Aug 23, 2018
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#347 » by Triple7 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:19 am

4/40 seems fair but no to exceed 4/44
briannadin
Ballboy
Posts: 1
And1: 2
Joined: Jun 22, 2022
         

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#348 » by briannadin » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:54 am

Froob wrote:I know he sucked last two rounds, but he’s too valuable vs Milwaukee to trade or let walk after next year.
Do you guys want to keep him and if so what’s the contract? I’d love to do a weight incentive 5 year deal around 12M a year.

I guess it will again depend on how much ownership is willing to spend and if FO is on the hunt for a 3rd max/near-max player.
Speed Test xender snaptube
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 16,735
And1: 9,521
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#349 » by sam_I_am » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:25 pm

Grant is decent for a late round pick. I love the guy but I wouldn’t offer him extension yet.. If a team steals him in free agency he is too easy to replace to worry. That said, I hope he is here for a long time. Once this team is set, I have no problem paying him market rate when we have no wiggle room in free agency.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
hugepatsfan
General Manager
Posts: 8,884
And1: 9,350
Joined: May 28, 2020
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#350 » by hugepatsfan » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:58 pm

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2023/

Important to look at our 2023-24 season cap sheet if you're talking a Grant extension.

Right now, we are at $130.7M in salaries. I also wouldn't be surprised if we decline Nesmith's 4th year option which lowers that by $5.6M. Thei as an expiring $9.1M is pretty movable too since he'll be expiring (year after is team option). The projected tax line is $156.45M. The tax apron will be about $5-6M higher than that. The tax apron is what you become hard capped at if you execute a S&T or want to use the full MLE. So even before any subtractions, we have about $30M to spend up to the hard cap and only Horford is a FA amongst our top 10 current players (and he'll be 37 so you figure his market is somewhat limited and thus cheaper).

We are a real threat to do a S&T next year for a significant free agent. If you re-signed Grant to the type of deal that people in here are suggesting ($12-14M/year), then Grant/Theis/Pritchard give you about outgoing $25M. If Nesmith is still here that's $30M you can send out and all of it beside Grant would be expiring.

People keep talking about Bradley Beal... if he were a FA next year instead of this year then all of this S&T math would be a LAYUP, so long as Grant is extended to use in the deal.

If you don't sign Grant now, then you won't be able to practically trade him next offseason. His restricted free agency, base-year compensation rules, etc. make it extremely difficult to do and requires sign-in from him on where he goes.

I'm not saying negotiate against yourself, but push comes to shove, we're better off just caving and signing him for an extra $1-2M/year vs. playing hardball and letting him go to free agency. We lose incredible amounts of upside and flexibility if we hold hard at $10M/year vs. caving at $13M/year like some people in here say.
User avatar
jmr07019
General Manager
Posts: 8,610
And1: 8,589
Joined: Oct 29, 2009
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#351 » by jmr07019 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:13 pm

I’m not too concerned with plus minus stats it’s pretty clear Grant was one of our best defenders against both Giannis and Durant. That’s super valuable considering Giannis is our biggest problem for the foreseeable future. Grant also one of the few guys on this squad not afraid to mix it up and give hard fouls. Marcus is the only other one we got.

Signing Grant to MLE type deal is a no brainer move if he accepts it. If he can improve his offense a little more he could be a high end role player. This playoffs showed he’s too boom or bust at the moment.
Show Love Spread Love
hugepatsfan
General Manager
Posts: 8,884
And1: 9,350
Joined: May 28, 2020
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#352 » by hugepatsfan » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:52 pm

I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.
darrendaye
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 17,134
And1: 10,187
Joined: May 06, 2001
Location: Pollard Powered, in Yonkers, NY
     

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#353 » by darrendaye » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:18 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.


Samesies. I'm hoping they ultimately construct a roster and improve the offensive system so to allow guys like Grant and Rob Williams a platform to expand their playmaking opportunities.
Baylor is Brat.
User avatar
moonie_mcgee
Starter
Posts: 2,046
And1: 1,794
Joined: Mar 12, 2021
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#354 » by moonie_mcgee » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:20 pm

Absolutely extend Grant Williams.
He's a piece to a championship.
Either by trade or on the court.
He's good, healthy, smart and a worker.
That's the Way of the World
User avatar
moonie_mcgee
Starter
Posts: 2,046
And1: 1,794
Joined: Mar 12, 2021
       

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#355 » by moonie_mcgee » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:23 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.


Grant has many many years to really get to Tucker's level.
Some think Tucker is overrated but damn he could play for us in the Finals anytime hw wants.
That's the Way of the World
BK_2020
RealGM
Posts: 17,031
And1: 15,764
Joined: Sep 08, 2020
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#356 » by BK_2020 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:16 am

hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.

This? Tatum showed great playmaking in this play. Saw the play develop and hit the spot accurately from the opposite end of the court.
https://webm.red/XliC
playa-hater
RealGM
Posts: 22,459
And1: 24,173
Joined: Aug 29, 2020
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#357 » by playa-hater » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:08 am

moonie_mcgee wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.


Grant has many many years to really get to Tucker's level.
Some think Tucker is overrated but damn he could play for us in the Finals anytime hw wants.


The biggest difference between Tucker and Grant at this time, I feel is, Grant gets the Theis treatment from the Refs while Tucker, at times, gets away with murder. Is that because Tucker is a veteran who has earned that?? Can Grant get to that point?? I don't know.. just my observation.
2 things need to go.. my lack of spell check and Joe.. :nod:
Andrew McCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 23,153
And1: 8,549
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
 

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#358 » by Andrew McCeltic » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:29 am

moonie_mcgee wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.


Grant has many many years to really get to Tucker's level.
Some think Tucker is overrated but damn he could play for us in the Finals anytime hw wants.


PJ Tucker was the comp at the draft. Don’t see him reaching Diaw’s level as a passer, but he can still improve as a scorer. He started attacking close outs, even passing out of his drive.. midrange jump shot next?

Forget all that, though, he has to 1. stay in shape and 2. maintain or improve his three point shooting. He’ll get plenty of savvy on both sides of the ball with more time.
poopship
Junior
Posts: 470
And1: 611
Joined: Jul 08, 2017
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
   

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#359 » by poopship » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:47 am

playa-hater wrote:
moonie_mcgee wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:I've always felt Grant could be a mix of PJ Tucker (defense, 3s) and Boris Diaw (sneaky good inside passer).

BK always has in game videos ready so maybe he can pull this... it was during the 3rd quarter run we made in game 5 vs. GS. Someone swing the ball to Grant in the corner and he let the defense come to him but then leaned to the baseline and threw a bouncepass around the close out into Rob in the paint. He went up for 2 and got fouled. Was one of my favorite plays of the postseason just for the all around ball movement and the passing displayed by a guy who isn't one of our main ball handlers. I love when we play that way.

I see a lot of potential for Grant to expand his offensive game beyond just spot up shooting. I think he's a guy with great feel for the game. I thought he made good on those PJ Tucker comparisons I had for him in the playoffs, want to see some more Boris Diaw this upcoming season. Part of that will be Grant and the rest of the team fully embracing ball/player movement because that's what creates opportunities like that.


Grant has many many years to really get to Tucker's level.
Some think Tucker is overrated but damn he could play for us in the Finals anytime hw wants.


The biggest difference between Tucker and Grant at this time, I feel is, Grant gets the Theis treatment from the Refs while Tucker, at times, gets away with murder. Is that because Tucker is a veteran who has earned that?? Can Grant get to that point?? I don't know.. just my observation.


Absolutely agree about the difference in calls. The veteran/star/youngster whistle gets overlooked a lot with the NBA in the sense that there's not much push to change this oddity. It's very pronounced and has big impact on how we view players because it effects the way they can play, in some cases significantly.
FlatearthZorro
RealGM
Posts: 20,591
And1: 12,335
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
Location: Somewhere in Boston
     

Re: Grant Williams: Extend or not extend prior to next season 

Post#360 » by FlatearthZorro » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:50 am

Froob wrote:I know he sucked last two rounds, but he’s too valuable vs Milwaukee to trade or let walk after next year.

Do you guys want to keep him and if so what’s the contract? I’d love to do a weight incentive 5 year deal around 12M a year.


I think you can still trade him if you keep Horford. Depends on whether he has the right value. He's a decent player, paying him 15 mils a year would be atrocious tho. You just can't have a guy who simply plays defense for 4-5 out of 7 games in the playoffs.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.

Return to Boston Celtics