Baller2014 wrote:It's cool to have a different opinion and discuss it, but I don't think "his career speaks to that" is really a response to some of the concerns I raised. Kobe won 5 titles because he was very fortunate in his circumstances, not just because he was talented. He actually cost the team multiple titles with his issues too. If you look at everything good you cited about Kobe (except titles) you'll notice they all apply at least as much to Karl Malone. I see no reason to prefer Kobe, in spite of Karl Malone's clear advantages across the board, just because Kobe was luckier in his circumstances.
Also, I notice you and Shaqattack aren't actually on the voting panel this round, but if you keep participating I'm sure Pen will add you soon.
If anyone wants a vote update, it's:
K.Malone- 3 (Baller, T-Rex, Realbig3)
Oscar- 2 (Hbreak, Quo)
Kobe- 2 (Jbulls, BBallfan)
West- 1 (Rayban)
I participated in the last 100 and penbeast said I was included in voting from round 10... maybe not?
In any case, I'll elaborate further:
Malone's first 14 seasons:RS - 26 & 11 on 53-27-73 with 58 TS% and 53 eFG% (2x MVP, 12 consecutive All-NBA, 4x All-D team, 11x All-Star)
PS - 27 & 11 on 47-10-74 with 53 TS% and 47 eFG% (2 Finals Appearances, No Rings)
Malone's career:RS - 25.0 PPG (57.7 TS%), 10.1 Rebounds, 37.2 minutes, 23.9 PER
PS - 24.7 PPG (52.6% TS%), 10.7 Rebounds, 41.0 minutes, 21.1 PER
What we see with Malone supports the majority of observations about his failings. He could not sustain his RS performances - in fact, he scored less, less efficiently, in more minutes.
Malone's 'choke' has been brought up a few times, but I'll explore it again. 89 Playoffs versus the Warriors - by face value Malone had his best series yet his team lost to a much lower seeded team - why? I think in part, because he couldn't step his game up. In 1992-93, his drop in production from the RS to the Seattle series is the key factor why they lost.
Chicago Series for Malone -
http://www.virtualsportsnetwork.com/for ... oke-Artist (it's not the most analytical analysis and I don't have the footage readily available to provide that now, but I did look into it and agreed in time for this topic in 2011 -
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1200391). Later in his career I also distinctly remember his 8 point game versus the Blazers which saw the Jazz lose the series. 3/16 from the field is a full on choke in an elimination game.
The evidence against Malone for this spot outweights the evidence for him. I find it very hard to say much more here. In my mind, his perceived best ability (scoring) was not actually that good. He did have some all round qualities, was a good rebounder and defender, but none of his secondary qualities were notable enough to warrant his inclusion here. He was not a good enough post-season scorer especially. When a team heads into the post-season built around a very good player like Malone, expecting he can continue to score at his volume as efficiently, but he fails, a lot of that failure is on him. Or, we revise our outlook and say Malone doesn't warrant being that #1 guy - either way, I don't think he shows value over a guy like Dirk here.
Kobe's career, by contrastRS - 25.5 PPG (55.5% TS%), 5.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists; 36.6 minutes
PS - 25.6 PPG (54.1% TS%), 5.1 rebounds, 4.7 assists; 39.3 minutes*
*missed 04/05 peak, and 13 onwards.
Kobe sees a smaller efficiency drop off, and he's still above average efficiently. More notably, there's not the substantial list of failures, in my opinion, that warrant putting him behind Malone.
We could debate the narrative of each one's careers in more detail, of course, and it will get pretty subjective. I think most have been discussed already though.
There is no consolation prize. Winning is everything.
