OT: Officer Crowley

[Dirty Water]

Any decent biologist will tell you that there are NO races with regards to humans.

Completely and utterly false.

Actually, much closer to being true.

Racial differences are, overwhelmingly, both literally and figuratively superficial.

There are many phenotypical traits that are physical that separate the human races. Evolutionarily speaking we are very close, but to say there are no races is absolutely false.

[TommyPoints]

Just my observation, but I've lived in South Carolina for 15 years now. The school systems as a whole are pretty poor here compared to many other states. It seems to me that the lower class as a whole do not really encourage and support education. Many of my wifes white family members for instance were not encouraged to make anything of themselves and they haven't.

I know that race plays a part in certain aspects, but honestly I think many of the minorities have greater resources to assist them in going to college. I dont see a distinct difference between different races and what they can achieve. I see just as many lower class white people under achieve and go nowhere based on their class as I do black people. It isn't about capacity to learn or color of skin. I think it is more about motivation and encouragement to change.

All of my wifes family resent her for becoming educated and moving away from her small town. She is the exception and not the rule. I went to a mixed public school, I had friends of different races, and I never heard anything about race bringing them down. Some failed and some became successfull, but their race didn't seem to have much to do with it as far as I can see. Just my observations and humble opinion.

[Fencer reregistered]

There are many phenotypical traits that are physical that separate the human races. Evolutionarily speaking we are very close, but to say there are no races is absolutely false.

How much on a systems level? Sure, one race is better at producing Vitamin D and another has a common mutation (not so beneficial outside the jungle) that fights malaria. One has muscles a bit more suited for running and one has muscles a bit more suited for lifting. Etc.

But is there any difference in, say, any major system that would even be an analogy to the kind of neurological difference people suggest when they mutter hints that blacks are less intelligent, diligent, whatever than whites?

[GuyClinch]

I'm misusing the book? You don't even know what the book's about. I'd love to hear why the book is intellectually shoddy--but instead of explaining your rationale (which would go along way towards strengthening your argument), you fall all over yourself to point out that Gladwell would absolutely agree with YOU. If you had some face time with the man, I'm pretty sure the conversation wouldn't even get off the ground until he corrected your fundamental misunderstanding of his book...

Yes. Badly. Gladwell's book is concerned with the idea that class, culture, luck and timing play large roles in extraordinary success. You try to twist that into the idea that race is what is holding blacks down. I don't think you can misuse a work anymore then that.

We see this in the example the genius who never amounts to much because of his social deficencies inherited from his poor backaround. <g> Correct me if I am wrong but I recollect that genius was white no?

you fall all over yourself to point out that Gladwell would absolutely agree with YOU

So? Its very easy to agree with the overall 'theme" of a book but at the same time dislike how he glosses over the science and fails to prove some more provocative individual theories. I didn't want to get into that because it would mislead poor thinkers into believing I am disregarding the basic premise behind the book. It's foolish to think that family backaround and culture dont' have a great effect on achievement. Or to ignore that luck and timing play a part.

But its actually quite obvious for those from a good rigourous backaround why it's so shoddy. He is a good writer. But good writers can make weak science seem absolute - or suspect philosophy seem inspiring and life changing.

For example, Gladwell singles out ONE factor - the fact that the beatles played alot for their amazing extraordinary success. When in fact tons of many groups played alot as well. That's intellectually shoddy. Good scientists go through the painstaking and boring process of isolating variables and proving their point. Gladwell just glosses over that dirty work. The fact that you didn't pick up on this is a sign of a weakness in your own backaround. He makes moves like this over and over.

Another example he talks about the hockey success with the birthdays and the various hockey levels in Canada but neglects to mention that in the classroom the science isn't so strong.

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1609

He also glosses over variables that don't fit his cause. It IS widely known that OLDER students do NOT dominate schools the way the older hockey players did.

I didn't want to get too much into it because well first it should be obvious for any decent thinker - his work would get ripped apart in the social science community. Its a painful process to defend actual scientific theories but Gladwell doesn't even really try. He just makes broad points from with glib anecdotes.

But secondly its off topic. Why talk about social science criticism when his work is not relevant?

His basic premise is that - get this that talent alone does not ensure success. That you need luck, hard work, timing to be extraordinarly succesfull is something broadly understood by almost all. So there is no real reason to reference this work.

Its just something you read (poorly in my view) and your attempting to shoehorn into the conversation. Like i said today skin color is not the significant factor in the lessor achievement of the slave descendant community. Culture, family and class are playing a much larger role. That doesn't mean we should socially ignore those problems. Likewise its very clear you don't need any particular skin color to be incredibly succesfull.

[GuyClinch]

What are commonly referred to as racial groups are rather like an extended inbred family

No. Not at all. As I pointed out before SKIN COLOR - what we use to designate the black race is not significantly tied to any set of genes. its actually more genetically diverse then so called "white" skin color.

Now if you want to make a case that the slave descendants are all the same "race" in that they share a common heritage from a rather small part of africa - I would agree. But "black" doesn't designate a certain familial heritage anymore then height does.

Again while Obama and Shaq might both be "black" they come from a very different genetic backaround. Its only the human mind which like to catergorize based on color that confuses the issue.

[Bill Lumbergh]

There are many phenotypical traits that are physical that separate the human races. Evolutionarily speaking we are very close, but to say there are no races is absolutely false.

How much on a systems level? Sure, one race is better at producing Vitamin D and another has a common mutation (not so beneficial outside the jungle) that fights malaria. One has muscles a bit more suited for running and one has muscles a bit more suited for lifting. Etc.

But is there any difference in, say, any major system that would even be an analogy to the kind of neurological difference people suggest when they mutter hints that blacks are less intelligent, diligent, whatever than whites?

Seems like you're saying that either you accept the white guilt, white privilege viewpoint or you're necessarily a racist. A pretty harsh dichotomy there. I'm guessing most people, whatever their race, don't harbor racists views. Probably feel that they don't personally feel racist, don't associate with racists, and don't see all these purported signs of white racism everywhere, and yet they're supposed to feel a collective guilt over other peoples success or failure. Seems an ugly, paternalistic sort of view that needs to be either proven correct or dispensed with. Seems like the only way to get to the bottom of it would be massive cognitive testing.

This is pie in the sky stuff, but I wish they'd just get this whole tiresome business over with and administer worldwide IQ tests and get out of the realm of the theoretical. Truly know if there are group level differences in the area you're questioning. Then, if there are no group level differences, you can at least move forward knowing that any inequities are environmentally caused (whether that be racism or something else). If there are group level differences, then you can at least dispense with the white guilt/privilege theory. In either outcome, you at least move forward based on more than just theory, and you do your best for all your citizens regardless. I realize cognitive testing on a massive scale is unlikely to ever happen, but it would be nice to just know, because this dichotomy of 'either A) you believe that racism/white privilege is the root cause, or B) you are a racist' is a fundamentally dishonest way to characterize things.

[GuyClinch]

This is pie in the sky stuff, but I wish they'd just get this whole tiresome business over with and administer worldwide IQ tests and get out of the realm of the theoretical. Truly know if there are group level differences in the area you're questioning

This wouldn't solve anything as IQ is related to enviroment and upbringing. It's related to a mother's nutrition. So if say black people in Liberia scored low all that would tell us is that these people might have been raised in a lessor enviroment or had an inferior upbringing or have had poor nutrition.

We know objectively that american blacks have lower IQ levels (though the gap has been descreasing through the decades). But again this doesn't tell us much about innate intelligence. If anything it makes such differences seem mostly enviromental. And this of course sidesteps the whole "does IQ tests really measure intelligence" issues.

So no your plan would be an epic fail..There are already worldwide IQ tests available as well as books written on such subjects and so on. It hasn't solved anything.

Pete

[Fencer reregistered]

This is pie in the sky stuff, but I wish they'd just get this whole tiresome business over with and administer worldwide IQ tests and get out of the realm of the theoretical. Truly know if there are group level differences in the area you're questioning

This wouldn't solve anything as IQ is related to enviroment and upbringing. It's related to a mother's nutrition. So if say black people in Liberia scored low all that would tell us is that these people might have been raised in a lessor enviroment or had an inferior upbringing or have had poor nutrition.

We know objectively that american blacks have lower IQ levels (though the gap has been descreasing through the decades). But again this doesn't tell us much about innate intelligence. If anything it makes such differences seem mostly enviromental. And this of course sidesteps the whole "does IQ tests really measure intelligence" issues.

So no your plan would be an epic fail..There are already worldwide IQ tests available as well as books written on such subjects and so on. It hasn't solved anything.

Pete

And suppose you DID (once again) prove that 52% or whatever of whites scored better on some specific measure of intelligence than 50% of blacks. So what??? What possible legitimate effect would that have on:

A. The way individuals are treated?
B. The way groups of individuals are treated?

[Gold Chain]

I dont know how many people here have been following the news story of Professor Gates and the Cambridge PD but there is a pretty amazing surreal tie to the Celtics. To summarize: Professor Gates returns from vacation to China and cannot get in house so asks cab driver to help him push in door. Passerby calls police as possible break in. Officer arrives and Gates states he lives there so officer asks for ID. Gates, rather than showing gratitude for concern for his house accuses officer of racism and racial profiling and gets arrested. (There are 2 sides to this story... this is the version - given what I know about the officer in question that I believe)

Well it turns out that Officer Crowley was the first responder to Reggie Lewis cardiac arrest and provided mouth to mouth resuscitation to him. Too bad Obama didn't know that before he recklessly called the officer "stupid" yesterday.

As a democrat who voted for Obama and usually is very sympathetic to the racial profiling and "DWB's (driving while black) nonsense that goes on in the back bay.... I am appalled. Gates in my opinion is acting like a spoiled brat who cannot even appreciate the proper concern the police show for a possible break in which he actually was breaking in to his own house.

To lecture a man about racism who has put his mouth on the mouth of a dying black man to try to save his life is just disgusting. Right now I hate Obama for his irresponsible use of his office and I hate the fact that a Harvard professor cannot cooperate with a police officer just doing his duty because of arrogance and his own personal agenda. Yeah, it was his house but it was a reasonable call to the police and he should have been grateful rather than insulted. Harvard professors rarely get shot..... police officers get shot at all the time.

Fair enough and valid points.

But...if I came home from a week on the road, lost my key, tried to get in house and the cops showed up I would be a tad perturbed. The old proffessor seemingly escalated the situation in the face of a bone-headed cop who wanted to prove a point. No wonder the prof got pissed off, he was on HIS porch and the cops were harrassing him. This really has nothing to do with race and more to do with an older man who was red hot because the cops were trying to mess with him on his own property for doing nothing more than 1)questioning why they were there 2)getting into his own paid for property.

[TommyPoints]

No wonder the prof got pissed off, he was on HIS porch and the cops were harrassing him.

I think it was more like they were investigating and asking questions. I dont see any reason justifying his reaction to that. Be thankful that people are looking out for your property and play along. I'm sure the cops would have cleared it all up in a matter of minutes if he had just cooperated.

Yeah, this time he didn't actually need their help, but what about the next time when he does? Maybe they just shouldn't bother showing up at all.

[Bill Lumbergh]

And suppose you DID (once again) prove that 52% or whatever of whites scored better on some specific measure of intelligence than 50% of blacks. So what??? What possible legitimate effect would that have on:

A. The way individuals are treated?
B. The way groups of individuals are treated?

You're absolutely right. Those results should have no impact on how people are treated at all, as an individual or group, other than to end the blaming white racism/privilege narrative.

My "pie in the sky" idea was more to do with the possibility of more thorough cog testing worldwide, and that we could have something approaching an answer. Clearly, that won't happen.

Still, the many tests already performed are not entirely unilluminating. Results are consistent through space and time, meaning through longitudinal studies and wherever administered worldwide, and at least here in the U.S., have some predictive power. Ashkenazim Jews and Asians consistently score higher than everyone else, and do better academically and financially than everyone else.

And clearly nurture (environment) affects ones abilities to reach their potential. Not even in question. No one thinks that any differentials are entirely nature.

No, my idea for testing was to have something more concrete than just theory in disagreeing with the white racism/privilege theory for group level success. Absent anything concrete, all there is is theory, and witnessed outcomes. So, I'd at least have the intellectual curiosity to examine what attempts at cognitive science there are, and to look at other multicultural countries to see how things are shaking out there, and see if there is something unique in our own society that produces the outcomes that it does, or if outcomes are similar elsewhere. I personally find the white racism/privilege narrative unconvincing, so am open to alternatives. Bottom line is, regardless of any testing, that we help all our citizens develop to their fullest. I don't particularly care about results of cog tests other than to get rid of the pernicious white racism/prejudice narrative which does nothing but sow racial dissent. I'm just against scapegoating one group for another's success or failure. It's paternalistic, and it's time to move on from that. Fencer is right, every individual and each group should be treated with respect.

This seems a pretty pointless dialogue as people either buy into the currently fashionable memes and narrative or they find them entirely unconvincing. To each his own.

[cisco]

I was ready to side with Crowley until he falsified the police report. The woman never said the guys were "black", Gates was never heard yelling in the background when Crowley was on the phone, and the report doesn't say that Gates said to Crowley "yo mamma". Also, the 911 caller mentioned that the men had luggage and just might not be able to get into their own house. So with that in mind, it makes no sense that it escalated to the levels that it did. Makes you wonder what else Crowley lied about.

But I do believe that Gates probably acted unprofessionally, but still not grounds for arrest.

I almost forgot, Crowley said that he called off the rest of the police, but on the tape he clearly said keep them coming. Too many lies by Crowley for me.

[GuyClinch]

^^^ Umm cops don't actually hear the 911 call. The just get a message on the police radio. "Possible 459 in progress." <g> LMAO.

[cisco]

^^^ Umm cops don't actually hear the 911 call. The just get a message on the police radio. "Possible 459 in progress." <g> LMAO.

If he didn't even hear the 911 call, then why did he lie in the report and say that he responded to a report that there were two "black" men? Also if Gates was going crazy and yelling, why didn't we hear him yelling in the background when Crowley was on the phone? We could hear some talking, in the background, but it wasn't yelling. Oh, and the lady who called 911 said that Crowley never interviewed her. Crowley said he had.

[crm0922]

Maybe "black males" is in the police report because they are two black males.

Many times the officers are called to investigate two white males, black males, hispanic, whatever, and the race was clearly reported by the 911 caller. This is then relayed to the responding officers.

So Crowley was writing the police report and forgot whether the race was known or not from the get-go.

So what? This is not a lie, it is a very slight error in the timing of when the race and age, height, build, etc. became known.

All I know is plenty of people get arrested for disorderly conduct when they mouth off to cops, particularly after they have been warned to "calm down".

It might be a stupid rule, but that's the breaks.

C

[GuyClinch]

If he didn't even hear the 911 call, then why did he lie in the report and say that he responded to a report that there were two "black" men?

Okay so the radio report was "Possible 459 in progress - be on the lookout for two black men." Why even bother commenting if your so ignorant about police procedure? <g>

[crm0922]

If it was as easy as what Bill Cosby is saying,it would have been done already. African-Americans have no culture and no family history and are still strangers in their own land. There is an absence of family and community.

Black people have created some of the purest forms of art that define their culture, both before and after slavery, and have in turn enriched the lives of all Americans. Much of this artistic value comes from the expression of their struggles, and it has had a very unique and powerful cultural impact.

Blues and Jazz music, folk art, etc.

C

[Fencer reregistered]

All I know is plenty of people get arrested for disorderly conduct when they mouth off to cops, particularly after they have been warned to "calm down".

It might be a stupid rule, but that's the breaks.

It's not just a "stupid rule." It's an ILLEGAL USE OF FORCE by the cops.

[Fencer reregistered]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/region ... 5&srvc=rss

At least one person in Boston is a racist, and at least a couple are not.

A Boston (not Cambridge) cop sent around an email -- widely -- calling Gates a "jungle monkey", and was fired on the spot for doing so.

Actually, there's a bit of a free speech issue there potentially, but the article lacks details to show whether that line was crossed.

[cisco]

If he didn't even hear the 911 call, then why did he lie in the report and say that he responded to a report that there were two "black" men?

Okay so the radio report was "Possible 459 in progress - be on the lookout for two black men." Why even bother commenting if your so ignorant about police procedure? <g>

I don't believe the report said "be on the lookout for two black men." Did you make that up to appear right? LOL

Officer Crowley's Police Report Questioned

Updated here.

In the ongoing Gates-gate drama we now hear from the woman who made the 911 call. She says she never mentioned race in the call, and:

Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.

"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy said. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."



Here's what Crowley wrote in his police report:

I turned and looked in the direction of the voice and observed a white female, later identified as Lucia Whalen... She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of [blacked out] Ware Street. She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry.

http://littlethomsblog.blogspot.com/200 ... eport.html

Like I said, Officer Crowley lied.