Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion

[TeamTragic]

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Seriously I would love to see your package

[sunsbum]

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Seriously I would love to see your package

"A GoranTragic, Lilfishi22 and brandon knight walk into a bar together.... "

[Kerrsed]

Overvaluing Cousins and wanting him on the team is two different things. While I've clearly overvalued him, I'd still want him on my team.

What is your best offer for Cousins?

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

[asudevil]

Dec 9th. against Lakers if all stays the same.

Len/Chandler
Chriss/Dudley
Warren/Bender
Booker/Barbosa
Bledsoe/Ulis

[AtheJ415]

Our position should be we can sign him. We have the connections to him with Bledsoe in particular. Honestly Bledsoe may be the type of guy Cousins can interact with well. Accordingly, I would stick to picks and not include Chriss or Bender. Len sure. Our own future picks sure even without protection imo because Cousins is worth that.

[AtheJ415]

What is your best offer for Cousins?

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

I don't see how you can include Warren. His numbers are just crazy. He is currently the best player from that 2014 class, and he is showing consistent improvement every year. Cousins is eligible for a higher salary and will be maxed. Warren is as much of a deal breaker for me as Booker. If they require a SF then I'd rather trade Bender.

[Kerrsed]

Our position should be we can sign him. We have the connections to him with Bledsoe in particular. Honestly Bledsoe may be the type of guy Cousins can interact with well. Accordingly, I would stick to picks and not include Chriss or Bender. Len sure. Our own future picks sure even without protection imo because Cousins is worth that.

Oh yeah, totally, we can sign him as a FA when he becomes a FA in 2 years, because the Kings or whoever they trade him to are going to let him hit FA, that is 100% given!




/greenfont.

[AtheJ415]

Our position should be we can sign him. We have the connections to him with Bledsoe in particular. Honestly Bledsoe may be the type of guy Cousins can interact with well. Accordingly, I would stick to picks and not include Chriss or Bender. Len sure. Our own future picks sure even without protection imo because Cousins is worth that.

Oh yeah, totally, we can sign him as a FA when he becomes a FA in 2 years, because the Kings or whoever they trade him to are going to let him hit FA, that is 100% given!




/greenfont.

The Kings have shown to be entirely inept. I could say, "oh yeah, the Kings will draft another center for 3 years straight despite already having Cousins", but guess what?

Also, **** can happen with players who go to new teams. Dwight was a lock to remain in LA, but bolted for Houston. Lebron left for Miami to play with his friends. Bosh did too.

[thamadkant]

Suns / Warriors
Len for a 2016 first rounder




Suns / Thunder
Knight for a 2016 first rounder and Payne




Suns / Mavs
Tucker for a 2016 2nd Rounder




Suns / Kings
Warriors 2016 pick + Thunder 2016 pick + Heat 2019 pick + Suns 2016 2nd rounder + Mavs 2016 2nd rounder
for
Cousins

[Kerrsed]

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

I don't see how you can include Warren. His numbers are just crazy. He is currently the best player from that 2014 class, and he is showing consistent improvement every year. Cousins is eligible for a higher salary and will be maxed. Warren is as much of a deal breaker for me as Booker. If they require a SF then I'd rather trade Bender.

The only crazy numbers are his points (on 41% shooting). Everything else is ordinary or below. To me, he has Rudy Gay written all over him, and i challenge anyone to convince me otherwise. Cool, he can score 20 points a game, but what else does he contribute to the team. Can he get a solid 20 points per game when the rest of the team isnt dogging it in the dumps like we have been for the past 5 games? Who knows, but i see a poormans Rudy Gay.

And to say that Warren is BETTER than guys like Wiggins/Parker/Randle/Lavine/Nurkić/Harris/Jokić/Grant, that just shows how rosey some fans glasses can be.

[OnceUponADime]

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

I don't see how you can include Warren. His numbers are just crazy. He is currently the best player from that 2014 class, and he is showing consistent improvement every year. Cousins is eligible for a higher salary and will be maxed. Warren is as much of a deal breaker for me as Booker. If they require a SF then I'd rather trade Bender.

The only crazy numbers are his points (on 41% shooting). Everything else is ordinary or below. To me, he has Rudy Gay written all over him, and i challenge anyone to convince me otherwise. Cool, he can score 20 points a game, but what else does he contribute to the team. Can he get a solid 20 points per game when the rest of the team isnt dogging it in the dumps like we have been for the past 5 games? Who knows, but i see a poormans Rudy Gay.

And to say that Warren is BETTER than guys like Wiggins/Parker/Randle/Lavine/Nurkić/Harris/Jokić/Grant, that just shows how rosey some fans glasses can be.

I don't think you're giving him enough credit but yea its absolutely crazy to say that he's the best player from that draft. Everyone you listed except for Lavine and Grant (imo) are better than him despite what the "crazy" numbers about him say if you ask me.

[TeamTragic]

Kerrsed wants to trade Warren for Cousins?

[lilfishi22]

What is your best offer for Cousins?

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

I see both as equally capable of being our future PF. With the way the NBA big men is evolving, I see no reason why Bender, even without the bulk to bang in the post, couldn't play in tomorrow's NBA. He's the definition of a stretch big with his handles, 3PT shot, weakside shot blocking and ability to switch on the PnR. Chriss also seems like a MoBros type of 6'10. Small body with short arms but a long neck. He just seems small out there. At least, if it gets into the post, Bender has the length to cover other big men. Chriss does have that elite athleticism and instincts that could prove to be very useful going forward. I still like to see more of both players but I would only consider one of them close to untouchable if we trade the other.

I'm on the fence with Warren. He's proven he can be a very efficient scorer, something like a 3rd scoring option on a very good playoff team. I also think he's a solid rebounder for his position. He's currently sitting at tied-11th for rebounds for a SF. He still has a boatload of potential so I wouldn't want to move him just yet. But for a deal involving a top 3 C who is still young, I'd have to think on it.

[lilfishi22]

Suns / Warriors
Len for a 2016 first rounder




Suns / Thunder
Knight for a 2016 first rounder and Payne




Suns / Mavs
Tucker for a 2016 2nd Rounder




Suns / Kings
Warriors 2016 pick + Thunder 2016 pick + Heat 2019 pick + Suns 2016 2nd rounder + Mavs 2016 2nd rounder
for
Cousins

Picks from the draft just past?

Can we do Len for 2013 1st rounder instead? Redo the 2013 draft lol

[bwgood77]

What is your best offer for Cousins?

Everyone except Booker, Warren and one of Bender/Chriss, I would give up. Which doesn't leave much since most of the value on our team is concentrated around Booker, Warren and to a much lesser degree, Bledsoe.

Kinda close to mine. Everyone except Booker, Chriss and one of Bender/Warren.

I look at it this was, Chriss is our future PF. Bender, even though he is 7 feet tall, doesnt have the skillset to play PF or C. The kid is a SF, just like Warren. Warren has proven that he can score the ball while playing the SF spot, but lacks the rebounds/assists/steals/blocks/3 point shot to be considered an all-star there. Bender is just young, raw, and unproven so far. As long as we can hold on to one of Warren or Bender to be our future starting SF, im good. Thats why i replace Chriss in your proposal with Warren.

Warren is top 10 in steals per game in the entire league. I don't know why you don't think this guy is a baller. As much as I like Chriss, he's much more expendable than Warren. Bender is SF now, but he is somewhat in the Dirk/Durant category as far as bodies and defense will got and will be able to play the 4, particularly if the league continues to play small ball, and I think they will.
There are many rising centers in the league, but I still think the 4s who stretch and are mobile will be more valuable..very few teams are going to play 2 guys in the paint unless they want to lose.

But having said all that, I don't want a year and a half and a chance at Cousins when 10 teams will court him for a guy or guys we have rights to for 5-8 years.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

How do you who are Suns fans feel about this trade idea:

Tyson Chandler and John Jenkins for Marcin Gortat and Trey Burke?

Sent from my LG-H345 using RealGM mobile app

[Villalobos]

IIRC Gortat doesn't like the Suns front office, so that may not be the best idea. On paper it's fine. Kind of a lateral move for both teams, probably worse for Washington because Chandler's usefulness could sink fast with age.

[AtheJ415]

I don't see how you can include Warren. His numbers are just crazy. He is currently the best player from that 2014 class, and he is showing consistent improvement every year. Cousins is eligible for a higher salary and will be maxed. Warren is as much of a deal breaker for me as Booker. If they require a SF then I'd rather trade Bender.

The only crazy numbers are his points (on 41% shooting). Everything else is ordinary or below. To me, he has Rudy Gay written all over him, and i challenge anyone to convince me otherwise. Cool, he can score 20 points a game, but what else does he contribute to the team. Can he get a solid 20 points per game when the rest of the team isnt dogging it in the dumps like we have been for the past 5 games? Who knows, but i see a poormans Rudy Gay.

And to say that Warren is BETTER than guys like Wiggins/Parker/Randle/Lavine/Nurkić/Harris/Jokić/Grant, that just shows how rosey some fans glasses can be.

I don't think you're giving him enough credit but yea its absolutely crazy to say that he's the best player from that draft. Everyone you listed except for Lavine and Grant (imo) are better than him despite what the "crazy" numbers about him say if you ask me.

41% shooting? Who are you talking about?

Lavine? You realize this isn't a dunk contest right?

Here's a comparison of the more insane people I see on that list:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=T.J.+Warren&player_id1_select=T.J.+Warren&player_id1=warretj01&hint=Zach+LaVine&player_id2_select=Zach+LaVine&player_id2=lavinza01&hint=Jabari+Parker&player_id3_select=Jabari+Parker&player_id3=parkeja01&hint=Julius+Randle&player_id4_select=Julius+Randle&player_id4=randlju01&hint=Gary+Harris&player_id5_select=Gary+Harris&player_id5=harriga01&hint=Jerami+Grant&player_id6_select=Jerami+Grant&player_id6=grantje01
[/url]
The only, and yes ONLY player of those 6 with a positive Ortg-Drtg is TJ Warren. And that's despite the entire Suns team blowing defensively his first 2 years in the league. He also is the most efficient scorer of that group by FAR (look at his shooting percentages on attempts). TJ's weakness was defense but he has fixed that. He's not an amazing defender but he's in the top 10 in the NBA in steals and is improving on that end rapidly.

If you want to sit here and say Zach freaking Lavine and Gary Harris are better when they have negative double digit O-D ratings is just absurd. Hell, only TJ and Harris are guys with a positive VORP of that list. The almighty and incredibly overrated Jabari Parker is a neutral player right now. Until he learns to shoot 3s his value is limited, and at no point was he a better scorer than TJ--not in college and not in the NBA so far. Since Jabari still shows no interest in even trying to play D why would he be considered better according to any objective metric other than hype? These numbers don't suggest that.

Also, I added Wiggins here. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=T.J.+Warren&player_id1_select=T.J.+Warren&player_id1=warretj01&hint=Zach+LaVine&player_id2_select=Zach+LaVine&player_id2=lavinza01&hint=Jabari+Parker&player_id3_select=Jabari+Parker&player_id3=parkeja01&hint=Julius+Randle&player_id4_select=Julius+Randle&player_id4=randlju01&hint=Gary+Harris&player_id5_select=Gary+Harris&player_id5=harriga01&hint=Andrew+Wiggins&player_id6_select=Andrew+Wiggins&player_id6=wiggian01

Again, what this tells me is that TJ is a MUCH more advanced and efficient scorer at this stage on everything except for volume. While you could certainly argue that TJ couldn't be as efficient on Wiggins's volume, it wouldn't account for 7% of FG% and 5% of 3 point shooting. Wiggins has a negative VORP, a highly negative O-D rating (-10), and double the turnover rate. What you would expect him to make up for defensively he simply doesn't. Only Lavine has a worse DBPM than Wiggins, and that's despite Warren being backed up primarily by Tucker, a very good NBA defender.

Also, TJ has the highest WS/48 of the group despite Phoenix being hot garbage while he was here (not the best stat b/c the teams here have very different amounts of wins to share across players, but still).

If you want to argue athletic upside to justify some of these selections like Lavine and Parker go ahead, but the numbers don't back up your claim at all.

[thamadkant]

Suns / Warriors
Len for a 2016 first rounder




Suns / Thunder
Knight for a 2016 first rounder and Payne




Suns / Mavs
Tucker for a 2016 2nd Rounder




Suns / Kings
Warriors 2016 pick + Thunder 2016 pick + Heat 2019 pick + Suns 2016 2nd rounder + Mavs 2016 2nd rounder
for
Cousins

Picks from the draft just past?

Can we do Len for 2013 1st rounder instead? Redo the 2013 draft lol

lol


Change the 2016 to 2017s

[gaspar]

Spoiler:

The only crazy numbers are his points (on 41% shooting). Everything else is ordinary or below. To me, he has Rudy Gay written all over him, and i challenge anyone to convince me otherwise. Cool, he can score 20 points a game, but what else does he contribute to the team. Can he get a solid 20 points per game when the rest of the team isnt dogging it in the dumps like we have been for the past 5 games? Who knows, but i see a poormans Rudy Gay.

And to say that Warren is BETTER than guys like Wiggins/Parker/Randle/Lavine/Nurkić/Harris/Jokić/Grant, that just shows how rosey some fans glasses can be.

I don't think you're giving him enough credit but yea its absolutely crazy to say that he's the best player from that draft. Everyone you listed except for Lavine and Grant (imo) are better than him despite what the "crazy" numbers about him say if you ask me.

41% shooting? Who are you talking about?

Lavine? You realize this isn't a dunk contest right?

Here's a comparison of the more insane people I see on that list:

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=T.J.+Warren&player_id1_select=T.J.+Warren&player_id1=warretj01&hint=Zach+LaVine&player_id2_select=Zach+LaVine&player_id2=lavinza01&hint=Jabari+Parker&player_id3_select=Jabari+Parker&player_id3=parkeja01&hint=Julius+Randle&player_id4_select=Julius+Randle&player_id4=randlju01&hint=Gary+Harris&player_id5_select=Gary+Harris&player_id5=harriga01&hint=Jerami+Grant&player_id6_select=Jerami+Grant&player_id6=grantje01
[/url]
The only, and yes ONLY player of those 6 with a positive Ortg-Drtg is TJ Warren. And that's despite the entire Suns team blowing defensively his first 2 years in the league. He also is the most efficient scorer of that group by FAR (look at his shooting percentages on attempts). TJ's weakness was defense but he has fixed that. He's not an amazing defender but he's in the top 10 in the NBA in steals and is improving on that end rapidly.

If you want to sit here and say Zach freaking Lavine and Gary Harris are better when they have negative double digit O-D ratings is just absurd. Hell, only TJ and Harris are guys with a positive VORP of that list. The almighty and incredibly overrated Jabari Parker is a neutral player right now. Until he learns to shoot 3s his value is limited, and at no point was he a better scorer than TJ--not in college and not in the NBA so far. Since Jabari still shows no interest in even trying to play D why would he be considered better according to any objective metric other than hype? These numbers don't suggest that.

Also, I added Wiggins here. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&hint=T.J.+Warren&player_id1_select=T.J.+Warren&player_id1=warretj01&hint=Zach+LaVine&player_id2_select=Zach+LaVine&player_id2=lavinza01&hint=Jabari+Parker&player_id3_select=Jabari+Parker&player_id3=parkeja01&hint=Julius+Randle&player_id4_select=Julius+Randle&player_id4=randlju01&hint=Gary+Harris&player_id5_select=Gary+Harris&player_id5=harriga01&hint=Andrew+Wiggins&player_id6_select=Andrew+Wiggins&player_id6=wiggian01

Again, what this tells me is that TJ is a MUCH more advanced and efficient scorer at this stage on everything except for volume. While you could certainly argue that TJ couldn't be as efficient on Wiggins's volume, it wouldn't account for 7% of FG% and 5% of 3 point shooting. Wiggins has a negative VORP, a highly negative O-D rating (-10), and double the turnover rate. What you would expect him to make up for defensively he simply doesn't. Only Lavine has a worse DBPM than Wiggins, and that's despite Warren being backed up primarily by Tucker, a very good NBA defender.

Also, TJ has the highest WS/48 of the group despite Phoenix being hot garbage while he was here (not the best stat b/c the teams here have very different amounts of wins to share across players, but still).

If you want to argue athletic upside to justify some of these selections like Lavine and Parker go ahead, but the numbers don't back up your claim at all.

Just a heads up, there's an option on B-R.com to show stats for players from a specific draft class: LINK.