NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 5: So who's winning MVP? )

[dygaction]

This ^

Luka's lucky that they put the OFFICIAL # of games missed to be 17 to be eligible for awards.

Historical precedent has been, over the last 45 years, if you miss double digit games, you don't win MVP (only 1 exception to this rule, 2001 Allen Iverson). That's it. 45 years, only one player has won MVP missing 10+ games. Luka has already missed 10 this year, the fact that he's even somewhat in the conversation is the product of the 'Embiid rule'

Embiid won it last year while missing 16 games.

Yes, shortly after the NBA made their plans known for a 65 game minimum (back in April 2023).

Prior to that, it was always a de-facto informal rule...cause the NBA never had a minimum. The voters historically set it at 10 games missed.

Nothing historically about... It is usually because the play levels are similar and you win more by playing more games. If a hypothetical player play 65 regular season games a year and always guarantee 65 wins and the team loses the rest, most likely he will beat another player playing 82 games leading to 67 wins.

[Bob8]

You notice joker is always the constant. Everyone else just rotates through from Embiid to Giannis to SGA to Tatum to Luka. It’s a revolving door except for the Joker

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

[AleksandarN]

You notice joker is always the constant. Everyone else just rotates through from Embiid to Giannis to SGA to Tatum to Luka. It’s a revolving door except for the Joker

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

[famicommander]

You notice joker is always the constant. Everyone else just rotates through from Embiid to Giannis to SGA to Tatum to Luka. It’s a revolving door except for the Joker

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jordan had Pippen and Rodman with Phil Jackson as his coach.

Jokic has Murray (sometimes) and Gordon with Michael Malone as his coach.

Jordan won his first championship at 28, same with Jokic.

[Bob8]

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Jokic is the best player now, but comparing him to MJ is a bad joke. Btw. MJ had 9x far the best advanced stats, so it looks player with the best advanced stats doesn't automatically win MVP.

[Oscar9992]

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Murray is in my opionion an All-Star level player. He is a beast in Playoffs. He averaged 25 PPG in the Playoffs during his career.

[Bob8]

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jordan had Pippen and Rodman with Phil Jackson as his coach.

Jokic has Murray (sometimes) and Gordon with Michael Malone as his coach.

Jordan won his first championship at 28, same with Jokic.

So Jokic is on MJ level, but his teammates aren't?

And when Jokic wins his 6th, we can put him in the same tier that MJ.

Jokic has won1 title, with incredibly easy draw, maybe we should wait a little bit more before making some strong conclusions and putting him on GOAT territory.

[famicommander]

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Murray is in my opionion an All-Star level player. He is a beast in Playoffs. He averaged 25 PPG in the Playoffs during his career.

He missed over a quarter of the season and the Nuggets still won more games than they did last year in a tougher Western Conference.

The Ghost of Reggie Jackson has played basically the same number of minutes as Murray this year.

[Jaqua92]

Geeze.

I don't think there's more than 5 players in NBA history who have ever been better than this Jokic. But he ain't MJ lol

But in terms of all time greatness? He's not top 10 even.

[Johnny Firpo]

Jokic has won1 title, with incredibly easy draw, maybe we should wait a little bit more before making some strong conclusions and putting him on GOAT territory.

I thought this dumb narrative that the Nuggets had an easy road has been put to bed. Jokic and the Nuggets during their run, have faced az NBA record number of all-defensive and all-NBA selections. More than any other player during a championship run in the history of the NBA.

[Bob8]

Jokic has won1 title, with incredibly easy draw, maybe we should wait a little bit more before making some strong conclusions and putting him on GOAT territory.

I thought this dumb narrative that the Nuggets had an easy road has been put to bed. Jokic and the Nuggets during their run, have faced az NBA record number of all-defensive and all-NBA selections. More than any other player during a championship run in the history of the NBA.

Yes play-in team in WCF and Final is for sure the most difficult road possible. Especially Heat in the Final.

[AleksandarN]

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Jokic is the best player now, but comparing him to MJ is a bad joke. Btw. MJ had 9x far the best advanced stats, so it looks player with the best advanced stats doesn't automatically win MVP.

I’m not talking about that. You are bringing up Bulls team and asking why Jokic didn’t have same record. Which is. A stupid take there are better ones to make. You don’t have to be disingenuous to make a point.

[AleksandarN]

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Murray is in my opionion an All-Star level player. He is a beast in Playoffs. He averaged 25 PPG in the Playoffs during his career.

Not my point Murray has not been an allstar nor all nba in the regular season which was the post I was referring too.

[Bob8]

Jokic is not at MJs level but comparing teammates MJ has and Jokic had are not even close to being similar. Jokic has yet to play with an allstar or allnba player.

Jokic is the best player now, but comparing him to MJ is a bad joke. Btw. MJ had 9x far the best advanced stats, so it looks player with the best advanced stats doesn't automatically win MVP.

I’m not talking about that. You are being up Bulls team and asking why Jokic didn’t have same record. Which is. A stupid take there are better ones to make. You don’t have to be disingenuous to make a point.

The person I was replying to put Jokic on the same tier that MJ, because of advanced stats. My question is, where we can actually see that dominance in results? Bulls with MJ were dominating, Denver not really.

We all know that advanced stats favour bigs. Better efficiency, more rebounds, less TOs...

[AleksandarN]

Geeze.

I don't think there's more than 5 players in NBA history who have ever been better than this Jokic. But he ain't MJ lol

But in terms of all time greatness? He's not top 10 even.

He needs to win at least two more chips to in be in the conversation for top 10. He has half of his career left

[Cubbies2120]

But in terms of all time greatness? He's not top 10 even.

You may change your mind in a couple months if Jokic has...
3x MVP
2x championship
2x FMVP

All before 30...

[dygaction]

People fall victim to the tendency to pretend like the 2nd best player, whomever it happens to be in the moment, is close to being as good as the best player just by virtue of being the next best. But, right now, the gap between the best guy and the second best guy is uncommonly large compared to other points in NBA history. Jokic is better than the next best guy by the same margins that LeBron and Jordan were in their primes. And, unfortunately, all three of those guys lost out on MVPs that they should've won simply due to narratives and voter fatigue. Embiid's MVP will be remembered in much the same way that Rose's and Malone's are, and if Luka were to win this year it would be no different. This is the Jokic era.

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jordan had Pippen and Rodman with Phil Jackson as his coach.

Jokic has Murray (sometimes) and Gordon with Michael Malone as his coach.

Jordan won his first championship at 28, same with Jokic.

No need to downplay Murray. If they could win 6 together, Jokic could be GOAT and Murray would be considered much higher than Pippen. His scoring explosiveness and upgradability are what Pippen could not even dream of.

[Wolfgang630]

Where are wins Bulls had in Jordan's best years? Denver is pretty modest considering how great Jokic supposedly is. Maybe we should look at wins and not only in advanced stats, before putting someone on MJ level.

Jordan had Pippen and Rodman with Phil Jackson as his coach.

Jokic has Murray (sometimes) and Gordon with Michael Malone as his coach.

Jordan won his first championship at 28, same with Jokic.

So Jokic is on MJ level, but his teammates aren't?

And when Jokic wins his 6th, we can put him in the same tier that MJ.

Jokic has won1 title, with incredibly easy draw, maybe we should wait a little bit more before making some strong conclusions and putting him on GOAT territory.

Easy draw lmao. Back to this talk again.

[Bob8]

Jordan had Pippen and Rodman with Phil Jackson as his coach.

Jokic has Murray (sometimes) and Gordon with Michael Malone as his coach.

Jordan won his first championship at 28, same with Jokic.

So Jokic is on MJ level, but his teammates aren't?

And when Jokic wins his 6th, we can put him in the same tier that MJ.

Jokic has won1 title, with incredibly easy draw, maybe we should wait a little bit more before making some strong conclusions and putting him on GOAT territory.

Easy draw lmao. Back to this talk again.

So you honestly believe that Celtics this year won't be better than Heat last year, assuming that everything goes by plan? Or that they can meet a team in the West that gives them more trouble than Lakers last year?

[BigGargamel]

But in terms of all time greatness? He's not top 10 even.

You may change your mind in a couple months if Jokic has...
3x MVP
2x championship
2x FMVP

All before 30...

When people put Jokic in top 10 status, they mean if his current career trajectory continues. Which there is no reason to think he won't be this dominant for at least the next five years. That's absolutely top 10 of all time accomplishments.

People just can't accept (or just don't know) how much Jokic is a part of everything Denver does. He's more than the engine. He's the engine, wheels, frame and seats. Without him the whole thing falls apart. He runs everything.

He really should be gunning for his fourth straight MVP by now. Not sure how that's not top ten status. Rangz, sure, but he's never had an All Star teammate. He is everything.