GS / Philly / Portland draft day deal

[old rem]

Wade is in a different class to Ellis. I'd take 1 Wade over 5 Monta's.

Moot point though.

Wade will be paid something around $20 mill per on his next deal. He IS a LITTLE BIT BETTER than Monta. At this point. Ellis is FASTER. Wade is larger. Both can get 30-35 pt. Both AVERAGE about the same right NOW. I HEAR the stuff about how NO GSW player MATTERS and it's all HOPELESS. Nobody we have MATTERS whether they score 10 per or 35 per. WE SUCK. YO MAMA sucks....case closed.

I ain't gonna be the weak link on the trade board. That job is covered.

Ellis's REAL output is what it is. He's in the ELITE few. HOW MANY NBAS players are scoring 25+ ? Huh?
How many CAN do 30 pt with 8 asst? Huh? You think that **** is COMMON ? It ain't.

[Relentless88]

Wade is in a different class to Ellis. I'd take 1 Wade over 5 Monta's.

Moot point though.

Wade will be paid something around $20 mill per on his next deal. He IS a LITTLE BIT BETTER than Monta. At this point. Ellis is FASTER. Wade is larger. Both can get 30-35 pt. Both AVERAGE about the same right NOW. I HEAR the stuff about how NO GSW player MATTERS and it's all HOPELESS. Nobody we have MATTERS whether they score 10 per or 35 per. WE SUCK. YO MAMA sucks....case closed.

I ain't gonna be the weak link on the trade board. That job is covered.

Ellis's REAL output is what it is. He's in the ELITE few. HOW MANY NBAS players are scoring 25+ ? Huh?
How many CAN do 30 pt with 8 asst? Huh? You think that **** is COMMON ? It ain't.

He is NOT a little bit better than Monta. He is A LOT better than Monta.

You should be ashamed to call yourself an NBA fan.

[old rem]

Uh...WRONG.


to be a LOT better, Mr. Wade had to rack up a nice 30 + ppg,or get 8-9 asst or a lot of whatever invisible stuff y'all think makes him a few light years better. Does this elusive standard also apply to other players? Just asking. Is B Roy just "okay?". Is OJ Mayo just AVERAGE? Is this stacked deck thing just relevant to Monta Ellis or is there a sheer cliff right next to whatever Wade happens to do because the gods say he's a "S T A R" ?

Educate me.


SHOW ME. What hidden magic does Wade have? Are his 26 ppg MASSIVELY >>>>>> Monta's 25 ppg ?

WHY?

How is this "not close" when it is close? What secret thing am I unaware of?

[Relentless88]

Uh...WRONG.


to be a LOT better, Mr. Wade had to rack up a nice 30 + ppg,or get 8-9 asst or a lot of whatever invisible stuff y'all think makes him a few light years better. Does this elusive standard also apply to other players? Just asking. Is B Roy just "okay?". Is OJ Mayo just AVERAGE? Is this stacked deck thing just relevant to Monta Ellis or is there a sheer cliff right next to whatever Wade happens to do because the gods say he's a "S T A R" ?

Educate me.


SHOW ME. What hidden magic does Wade have? Are his 26 ppg MASSIVELY >>>>>> Monta's 25 ppg ?

WHY?



How is this "not close" when it is close? What secret thing am I unaware of?

How about....Wade is better than Ellis in EVERY facet of the game. Everything individual, and everything team related.

[loserX]

Uh...WRONG.


to be a LOT better, Mr. Wade had to rack up a nice 30 + ppg,or get 8-9 asst or a lot of whatever invisible stuff y'all think makes him a few light years better. Does this elusive standard also apply to other players? Just asking. Is B Roy just "okay?". Is OJ Mayo just AVERAGE? Is this stacked deck thing just relevant to Monta Ellis or is there a sheer cliff right next to whatever Wade happens to do because the gods say he's a "S T A R" ?

Educate me.


SHOW ME. What hidden magic does Wade have? Are his 26 ppg MASSIVELY >>>>>> Monta's 25 ppg ?

WHY?

How is this "not close" when it is close? What secret thing am I unaware of?

Defence, apparently. Also rebounding differential. And being a better passer with more assists and fewer turnovers.

Why do you never acknowledge this? Why do you ONLY focus on PPG when it comes to these two? It's mind-boggling.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread:
Wade has been named 2nd team all-defence (so, one of the 4 best defensive guards in the league) twice, including last year.
He is top-10 in rebounds among guards.
He is top-10 in assists in the league.
AND he is a better scorer than Ellis.

How much better does he have to be before you concede he's better than Ellis? Please answer that. Top-3 in everything? Top-2? What more do you want from the guy? He's good at almost EVERYTHING, which Ellis is not. That fact, NOT PPG DIFFERENTIAL, is what makes it "not that close".

[Agenda42]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... i?id=8sFJZ

Wade has a 10 point advantage in PER. He gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played. He has a huge edge in true shooting %, offensive rating, defensive rating, and win shares. He gives you more assists and fewer turnovers.

In addition to the huge statistical advantage of Wade, I should also remark that the Heat are 9 games over .500 with Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal as the second and third best players on the roster.

[Coxy]

Wade is in a different class to Ellis. I'd take 1 Wade over 5 Monta's.

Moot point though.

Wade will be paid something around $20 mill per on his next deal. He IS a LITTLE BIT BETTER than Monta. At this point. Ellis is FASTER. Wade is larger. Both can get 30-35 pt. Both AVERAGE about the same right NOW. I HEAR the stuff about how NO GSW player MATTERS and it's all HOPELESS. Nobody we have MATTERS whether they score 10 per or 35 per. WE SUCK. YO MAMA sucks....case closed.

I ain't gonna be the weak link on the trade board. That job is covered.

Ellis's REAL output is what it is. He's in the ELITE few. HOW MANY NBAS players are scoring 25+ ? Huh?
How many CAN do 30 pt with 8 asst? Huh? You think that **** is COMMON ? It ain't.

Fair enough rem, I'll lay down on this point then because we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I don't think Monta is a star whatsoever. A good driving and finishing undersized 2 guard and I think his best may be as a dynamo 6th man. I also think the world of Wade as there is so much more than PPG. Locker room stuff MATTERS, and players have the utmost respect for Wade. Ellis, probably not so much. Just the way it is. Personalities also shape a basketball player no matter how talented a guy may be. Ellis has done things that I'm certain doesn't command locker room and on court respect. Thats what seperates the stars and the superstars. Its a trust thing. Monta threw Curry under the bus at the start of the season saying that he couldn't play next to him, and you think that sort of stuff doesn't effect the other guys around him? Sure he can play, but he's not a leader, never will be. So we'll agree to disagree on the value of Ellis here.

Also, leave my mama outta this, she's a nice lady........lol

[Coxy]

You should be ashamed to call yourself an NBA fan.

Seriously dude, you should be ashamed for resorting to this petty crap. Create a decent return argument or just leave the thread, your embarassing yourself.

[turk3d]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=8sFJZ

Wade has a 10 point advantage in PER. He gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played. He has a huge edge in true shooting %, offensive rating, defensive rating, and win shares. He gives you more assists and fewer turnovers.

In addition to the huge statistical advantage of Wade, I should also remark that the Heat are 9 games over .500 with Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal as the second and third best players on the roster.

Not claiming otherwise but to respond to this:

gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played - it is a known fact that Wade perhaps get more calls in his favor than any other player in the league (and that includes Kobe). He's in the same league as Jordan was. You can say he's earned it by being so good, but I say a foul is a foul and it shouldn't matter who you are. Monta (it is a known fact to anyone who's watched his games this year) gets perhaps the worst calls in the league.

Just by the mere fact that he for most of the season (don't know if it's changed recently) had scored more points in the paint than anyone else in the league (and that included big men) and yet only averages 6 fts a game as compared tp Wades 9.1.

As for Michael Beasley (former #2 draft pick overall) and Jermaine O'Neal (former all star) I'd say they're slightly better than Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter, two D-League callups. Not to mention Udonis Haslem (a solid veteran in the front court). The Warriors backup PF for much of the year was Vladamir Radmonovic although after he got hurt Devean George stepped up. That's a pretty weak argument, using Beasley and O'Neal when you compare what Monta had to play with all year.

One of the reasons imo for Monta's poor efficiency is the terrible calls he was getting all season. This is a respect league (and includes the officiating) and he got very little this season wheras Wade gets a ton of it (although maybe earned in your eyes means Monta was not playing on an even playing field). I can't count the # of times he drove into the circle and guys ran into him and he was called for a charge when the rules state otherwise. Many of his turnovers were due to offensive foul calls. And as for turnovers, Wade is almost just as bad (3.2 to 3.4 per36).

Wade definitely does better with assists (he's a way better passer) and should do better rebounding since he's physically much bigger than Monta. There's no doubt he's better but Monta's only 24 and this is the first year that he's become a first option on a terrible team. He will get better. Just because you're not better than Wade is nothing to be ashamed of. No one on this board is asking for a Wade for Monta trade as I can tell. Not better than Wade, but a heckuva lot better than the the players being offered for him.

[turk3d]

Who realizes that this year Ellis shot better from the 3 pt line than Wade did (33.7% to 30.1%). So there's something that Ellis is better at at least this year (and BTW, Wade is a 28.9% 3pt for his career). And Monta wasn't supposed to have a 3 pt shot according to a number of you earlier this year. lol. That's a big improvement and I am certain you will see more in the future.

[old rem]

I STILL do not see the A LOT BETTER. Better? I nevert said otherwise. You can cherry pick some secondary stats...but so WHAT...that goes both ways.

i don't ASSUME Ellis sucks because much of the team can't play,are injured. I don't see the Warriors or the Heat as an elite team now. Leave that BS aside.

Wade is a better rebounder. He weighs about 20 lb more and is an inch taller. Assists? If Miami had ANYONE else able to get 4+ asst, I wonder if Wade's numbers would be the same.

Defense? I concede Wade has some edge. HOWEVER....rating defense in the NBA seems very abstract.
Seems a guy has a few highlights and he gets credit forever. When we play Utah...Kirilenko is a LIABILITY for the Jazz on D...CONSISTANTLY. He still has a rep for D, but I can't see why. You burn him a couple times and he pretty much gives up. Artest plays physical D but at almost 260 lb...he can't CATCH a quick SF. However...he could SUCK and still ride his rep.

So...D Wade is SUPER AWESOME and Monta Ellis is just AVERAGE based on various obscure yardsticks and not much else? SORRY.....I still do not see this large gap.
for this big 0.8 plus in scoring to make Wade>>>>>>>>>better...he has to be the greatest 26 ppg scorer EVER, and Ellis has to be the WORST 25 ppg ever. I SAW Latrell Sprewell and John Starks. Monta is NOT an inefficient one trick pony. He's right on Wade's heels and has a few years to catch up.

[DusterBuster]

Who realizes that this year Ellis shot better from the 3 pt line than Wade did (33.7% to 30.1%). So there's something that Ellis is better at at least this year (and BTW, Wade is a 28.9% 3pt for his career). And Monta wasn't supposed to have a 3 pt shot according to a number of you earlier this year. lol. That's a big improvement and I am certain you will see more in the future.

Who realizes that shooting 33.7% from 3 is nothing to be proud of......

*raises hand*

[Coxy]

gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played - it is a known fact that Wade perhaps get more calls in his favor than any other player in the league (and that includes Kobe). He's in the same league as Jordan was. You can say he's earned it by being so good, but I say a foul is a foul and it shouldn't matter who you are. Monta (it is a known fact to anyone who's watched his games this year) gets perhaps the worst calls in the league.

Like I said, respect. Wade has it, Monta doesn't, and you cant blame refs for that, its just an on and off court presense that guys like Wade, Kobe, Durant, Lebron and Roy have. You cant teach it, it just is what it is. Wade gets to the line because he knows HOW to draw fouls, like Maggette knows how to draw fouls. If Monta wanted to get to the line then I'm sure he could but when I watch him drive it into the lane, he doesn't seek out the contact like Wade and LBJ do, he tries to use his quicks to avoid the defenders and get a clean layup. Guys like Wade, LBJ, Maggette and even Kevin Martin go looking for someone to ram into in the air to draw a foul and then finish after. Now, I have no doubt that Monta could adjust his game a little to seek out more contact, but he doesn't have the size to withstand that sort of battering night in and night out. He NEEDS to avoid the contact or he'll end up injured all the time I guarantee. It is what it is.

I like Monta, but I'd love Monta as a 6th man.

[old rem]

Wade is in a different class to Ellis. I'd take 1 Wade over 5 Monta's.

Moot point though.

Wade will be paid something around $20 mill per on his next deal. He IS a LITTLE BIT BETTER than Monta. At this point. Ellis is FASTER. Wade is larger. Both can get 30-35 pt. Both AVERAGE about the same right NOW. I HEAR the stuff about how NO GSW player MATTERS and it's all HOPELESS. Nobody we have MATTERS whether they score 10 per or 35 per. WE SUCK. YO MAMA sucks....case closed.

I ain't gonna be the weak link on the trade board. That job is covered.

Ellis's REAL output is what it is. He's in the ELITE few. HOW MANY NBAS players are scoring 25+ ? Huh?
How many CAN do 30 pt with 8 asst? Huh? You think that **** is COMMON ? It ain't.

Fair enough rem, I'll lay down on this point then because we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I don't think Monta is a star whatsoever. A good driving and finishing undersized 2 guard and I think his best may be as a dynamo 6th man. I also think the world of Wade as there is so much more than PPG. Locker room stuff MATTERS, and players have the utmost respect for Wade. Ellis, probably not so much. Just the way it is. Personalities also shape a basketball player no matter how talented a guy may be. Ellis has done things that I'm certain doesn't command locker room and on court respect. Thats what seperates the stars and the superstars. Its a trust thing. Monta threw Curry under the bus at the start of the season saying that he couldn't play next to him, and you think that sort of stuff doesn't effect the other guys around him? Sure he can play, but he's not a leader, never will be. So we'll agree to disagree on the value of Ellis here.

Also, leave my mama outta this, she's a nice lady........lol

Not serious with the Yo Mama......wasn't even aiming that at you or her.

Personalities? Okay......I KNOW some vasrious folks with all sorts of PERSONALITIES, but none are NBA players. Most NBA guys, I can make a SUPERFICIAL guess and not much else. A few guys, Rasheed Wallace,Stephen Jackson, are so extro that I have a good clue. An introverted guy like Ellis? I dunno. Seems Curry likes him. I reckon Nellie does,or he'd have shorted his minutes.

If QUALITY is based on who gets the love from ESPN hilights or assorted bloggers...or even NBA refs...we're forever Fubar. HERE? We are the bastard child of the town drunk. You'd think friggin' Rudy F was actually a BETTER player than MONTA. He is not.

Above...our rookie PF Tolliver is mentioned as a JOKE. The dude scored 34 tonight,8 boards. If that was some guy on most teams the buzz would be Oh Wow...what a hot rookie.

So...the deal here is that any GSW player is gonna be a bum,no matter what he does? Hell with that...go pick on Sacramento.

[turk3d]

Who realizes that this year Ellis shot better from the 3 pt line than Wade did (33.7% to 30.1%). So there's something that Ellis is better at at least this year (and BTW, Wade is a 28.9% 3pt for his career). And Monta wasn't supposed to have a 3 pt shot according to a number of you earlier this year. lol. That's a big improvement and I am certain you will see more in the future.

Who realizes that shooting 33.7% from 3 is nothing to be proud of......

*raises hand*

And who realizes 30.1% is even less proud, especially for a "superstar".

[Agenda42]

gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played - it is a known fact that Wade perhaps get more calls in his favor than any other player in the league (and that includes Kobe). He's in the same league as Jordan was. You can say he's earned it by being so good, but I say a foul is a foul and it shouldn't matter who you are. Monta (it is a known fact to anyone who's watched his games this year) gets perhaps the worst calls in the league.

Just by the mere fact that he for most of the season (don't know if it's changed recently) had scored more points in the paint than anyone else in the league (and that included big men) and yet only averages 6 fts a game as compared tp Wades 9.1.

It doesn't really matter why Wade gets more trips to the line, it just matters that he gets them. Do you think the balance between Wade and Ellis trips will change in the future?

As for Michael Beasley (former #2 draft pick overall) and Jermaine O'Neal (former all star) I'd say they're slightly better than Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter, two D-League callups. Not to mention Udonis Haslem (a solid veteran in the front court). The Warriors backup PF for much of the year was Vladamir Radmonovic although after he got hurt Devean George stepped up. That's a pretty weak argument, using Beasley and O'Neal when you compare what Monta had to play with all year.

I honestly think that most of the difference between the Warriors and Heat can be attributed to which team has Wade. Corey Maggette and Stephen Curry are the #2 and #3 players on the Warriors, and I'll take them over O'Neal and Beasley. While the rest of the Heat are better than the few remaining healthy Warriors, it's not exactly a night and day difference -- none of the #4-#15 players on that team have a PER above 14. They are very much a one-man show, and it works because they have Wade.

Wade definitely does better with assists (he's a way better passer) and should do better rebounding since he's physically much bigger than Monta. There's no doubt he's better but Monta's only 24 and this is the first year that he's become a first option on a terrible team. He will get better. Just because you're not better than Wade is nothing to be ashamed of. No one on this board is asking for a Wade for Monta trade as I can tell. Not better than Wade, but a heckuva lot better than the the players being offered for him.

That's all fair.

That said, if I'm the GM of the warriors, I am looking to dump Monta's salary for picks and prospects. I think being led by a Curry/Ellis backcourt is only good enough to ensure you never get another look at a high lottery pick again.

[turk3d]

gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played - it is a known fact that Wade perhaps get more calls in his favor than any other player in the league (and that includes Kobe). He's in the same league as Jordan was. You can say he's earned it by being so good, but I say a foul is a foul and it shouldn't matter who you are. Monta (it is a known fact to anyone who's watched his games this year) gets perhaps the worst calls in the league.

Like I said, respect. Wade has it, Monta doesn't, and you cant blame refs for that, its just an on and off court presense that guys like Wade, Kobe, Durant, Lebron and Roy have. You cant teach it, it just is what it is. Wade gets to the line because he knows HOW to draw fouls, like Maggette knows how to draw fouls. If Monta wanted to get to the line then I'm sure he could but when I watch him drive it into the lane, he doesn't seek out the contact like Wade and LBJ do, he tries to use his quicks to avoid the defenders and get a clean layup. Guys like Wade, LBJ, Maggette and even Kevin Martin go looking for someone to ram into in the air to draw a foul and then finish after. Now, I have no doubt that Monta could adjust his game a little to seek out more contact, but he doesn't have the size to withstand that sort of battering night in and night out. He NEEDS to avoid the contact or he'll end up injured all the time I guarantee. It is what it is.

I like Monta, but I'd love Monta as a 6th man.

I do blame the refs, they're bad calls. How do you think that teams feel (especially in the playoffs) when the refs give certain players preferential treatment? I hate it. Shouldn't have anything to do with respect. All it should have to do with is the rules and making the right calls. If you want to tell me that Wade is better than Monta because he gets respect from the refs and the league I'm not buying it. Wade is better than Monta because he's better than him at this point,and if he is in fact better, then why should he get an unfair advantage? That's flat out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

I love the game, but I hate the BS and when certain guys get preferential treatment from the refs and the league that's BS. You think that was right when in the playoffs Duncan threw Nash under a table, drew blood and then Amare was called for a T and thrown out of the game and then suspended? That cost Phoenix the game and possibly a ring. All because Duncan is respected and Amare isn't. I'm sure that's something the Phoenix fans will never forget.

If Monta wanted to get to the line then I'm sure he could but when I watch him drive it into the lane, he doesn't seek out the contact like Wade and LBJ do, he tries to use his quicks to avoid the defenders and get a clean layup.

Wow. Do you realize what you just said Coxy? If true, then how in the eff does he get called for offensive fouls if he's trying to avoid contact? Explain that one to me. lol. That's my gripe. He does try and avoid contact (he's not built like a battering ram like Wade and Maggette) yet he's constantly getting either no calls (when he's hammered) or adding insult to injury they call an offensive foul on him. And this is not just one or two times I've seen this and he's even made the bucket on a number of occasions which they take away from him. That's a good way to get you FG% effed up as well as a very high turnover rate.

[Coxy]

Best thing to do with Monta is wait until the dust has settled on the hurricane that will be the free agency period of 2010. We'll have a better idea on what players are available and what teams might want to aquire Monta.

[turk3d]

gets to the foul line 72% more often per minute played - it is a known fact that Wade perhaps get more calls in his favor than any other player in the league (and that includes Kobe). He's in the same league as Jordan was. You can say he's earned it by being so good, but I say a foul is a foul and it shouldn't matter who you are. Monta (it is a known fact to anyone who's watched his games this year) gets perhaps the worst calls in the league.

Just by the mere fact that he for most of the season (don't know if it's changed recently) had scored more points in the paint than anyone else in the league (and that included big men) and yet only averages 6 fts a game as compared tp Wades 9.1.

It doesn't really matter why Wade gets more trips to the line, it just matters that he gets them. Do you think the balance between Wade and Ellis trips will change in the future?

As for Michael Beasley (former #2 draft pick overall) and Jermaine O'Neal (former all star) I'd say they're slightly better than Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter, two D-League callups. Not to mention Udonis Haslem (a solid veteran in the front court). The Warriors backup PF for much of the year was Vladamir Radmonovic although after he got hurt Devean George stepped up. That's a pretty weak argument, using Beasley and O'Neal when you compare what Monta had to play with all year.

I honestly think that most of the difference between the Warriors and Heat can be attributed to which team has Wade. Corey Maggette and Stephen Curry are the #2 and #3 players on the Warriors, and I'll take them over O'Neal and Beasley. While the rest of the Heat are better than the few remaining healthy Warriors, it's not exactly a night and day difference -- none of the #4-#15 players on that team have a PER above 14. They are very much a one-man show, and it works because they have Wade.

Wade definitely does better with assists (he's a way better passer) and should do better rebounding since he's physically much bigger than Monta. There's no doubt he's better but Monta's only 24 and this is the first year that he's become a first option on a terrible team. He will get better. Just because you're not better than Wade is nothing to be ashamed of. No one on this board is asking for a Wade for Monta trade as I can tell. Not better than Wade, but a heckuva lot better than the the players being offered for him.

That's all fair.

That said, if I'm the GM of the warriors, I am looking to dump Monta's salary for picks and prospects. I think being led by a Curry/Ellis backcourt is only good enough to ensure you never get another look at a high lottery pick again.

That's a very interesting point. I don't want any more picks personally (unless we wind up with a bad lotto ball and then I'd maybe be interested in using it to couple it in order to move up in order to get the pick I want (which may not even be possible). We have enough young prospects imo and I don't see anyone (other than top 3-5) that I think is better than the ones we have (and we likely will get 3-5) so picks and expirings do not interest me.

I do not expect we will be able to get a pick higher than the one where getting this year for a long time regardless. I think it's almost impossible that we can be as bad next year than this one and will everyone healthy and our new pick I think we can be a legitimate playoff team next year and a serious for a number of years to follow. Unless I get what I consider equal value for Monta, I'm keeping him. The time for being chintzy is over if this team wants to do anything. It's time to stop dumping salaries, especially if it's a good player we're talking about.

[turk3d]

Best thing to do with Monta is wait until the dust has settled on the hurricane that will be the free agency period of 2010. We'll have a better idea on what players are available and what teams might want to aquire Monta.

That and the draft Coxy. You also need to see where teams are at after the playoffs are over. A lot can change as far as team dynamics go. Some of us are like the guy at the poker table early on in the game who knows he has a good hand (he just doesn't know how good). We just to be patient and see how all these things play out before playing any cards.

We need to see what cards the rest of these guys are playing first. And we need to first of all see if our tank effort pays off. Then we can start making personnel decisions. Now if someone were to knock our socks off with something really good, that's a totally different story and we should at least listen but nobody's going to do anything until after the draft and the playoffs are over. No need for a rummage sale, not yet.