OKC look better without Harden

[OptimusOne6]

That is the reason why he is scary because he was their only playmaker. Westbrook is a SG in a PG body.

Russell Westbrook is averaging about 8-9 apg this season, so no, Harden was not their only playmaker. Westbrook also averaged 8 apg in 2011 and 2010 before Harden got much playing time in OKC too.

It's hilarious how unbelievably underrated Westbrook's playmaking/PG ability gets. He isn't a good decision maker but he is still has great skills for a PG. It's a mental thing, not a physical thing.

[Krodis]

Westbrook's playmaking is underrated, and actually pretty good when he isn't stuck playing with Kendrick Perkins, but a secondary ball-handler would be nice for the Thunder right about now. And despite Maynor being healthy again, the second unit is missing Harden. The Thunder's second unit absolutely murdered opposing team's second units last year.

[fallacy]

Westbrook's playmaking is underrated, and actually pretty good when he isn't stuck playing with Kendrick Perkins, but a secondary ball-handler would be nice for the Thunder right about now. And despite Maynor being healthy again, the second unit is missing Harden. The Thunder's second unit absolutely murdered opposing team's second units last year.

Scott Brooks did one of his few good coaching decisions and changed the "second unit" now that Harden is gone. Brooks now takes Durant out early in the 1st/3rd where Durant used to play all the 1st/3rd quarters.

OKC's new "second unit" is Maynor-Martin-Durant-Collison-Thabeet. This second unit is putting up an offensive rating of 1.19 and a defensive rating of 1.00. That's pretty dominant for a second unit, they're "murdering" other team's second units again this year

[Tron Carter]

That is the reason why he is scary because he was their only playmaker. Westbrook is a SG in a PG body.

Russell Westbrook is averaging about 8-9 apg this season, so no, Harden was not their only playmaker. Westbrook also averaged 8 apg in 2011 and 2010 before Harden got much playing time in OKC too.

It's hilarious how unbelievably underrated Westbrook's playmaking/PG ability gets. He isn't a good decision maker but he is still has great skills for a PG. It's a mental thing, not a physical thing.

I agree... Trey5 has also impressed me with his playmaking abilities...

[Volcano]

That is the reason why he is scary because he was their only playmaker. Westbrook is a SG in a PG body.

Russell Westbrook is averaging about 8-9 apg this season, so no, Harden was not their only playmaker. Westbrook also averaged 8 apg in 2011 and 2010 before Harden got much playing time in OKC too.

It's hilarious how unbelievably underrated Westbrook's playmaking/PG ability gets. He isn't a good decision maker but he is still has great skills for a PG. It's a mental thing, not a physical thing.

His playmaking skills look very ordinary to me. He can disrupt defenses with his speed, but is court vision isn't very strong. He has a usage rate of 29.4% (2nd highest in the league), of course he's gonna get some assists. 8-9 APG actually doesn't tell us much. Jose is a pretty poor playmaker and he gets like 8-9 assists in 30 min.

[fallacy]

His playmaking skills look very ordinary to me. He can disrupt defenses with his speed, but is court vision isn't very strong. He has a usage rate of 29.4% (2nd highest in the league), of course he's gonna get some assists. 8-9 APG actually doesn't tell us much. Jose is a pretty poor playmaker and he gets like 8-9 assists in 30 min.

ooooooooooooh, really? Let's look at the top 10 usage players in the NBA. These guys should all be averaging 8+ assists because "you're just going to get some assists" right?

Carmelo - 1.8
Westbrook - 8.6
Cousins - 2.0
Monta - 5.8
Lebron - 6.5
Irving - 5.6
Harden - 4.7
Kobe - 5.4
Pierce - 3.0
Durant - 4.7

Hmmmmmmmmm, Westbrook is leading the top 10 usage players in assists by a huge margin (including lebron james). Where are all lebron's assists? His usage rate is high so he should have 9 a game right?

Or maybe Westbrook is actually a pretty decent playmaker. Three years ago he averaged 8.0 assists, two years ago 8.3 assists, and last year he had much less playmaking duties due to Harden's emergence. This year he's back up to 8.6.

If you have 4 seasons like this 8.0, 8.3, 5.5, 8.6; there is an obvious outlier and an obvious average.

[kamelion4291]

It's crazy the amount of crap Westbrook gets. He's a damn good player.

[richboy]

Well in 2012, Westbrook played off the ball a lot from what I saw which is not a good thing because Westbrook is not an off-ball player because he isn't that good of a shooter. The fact that Westbrook was playing less with the ball in his hands would mean that Harden probably was taking opportunities from him.

2011-12 Westbrook FGA per 36

Harden on: 19.7
Harden off: 19.4

2011-12 Westbrook Assist per 36

Harden on: 5.4
Harden off: 5.9

Harden being on or off the court did not appreciably affect Westbrook's assists or FGA. That's just a fact. Maybe you're remember the playoffs, where Harden had a little bit more involvement, but the difference was only marginal.

2011-12 Harden FGA per 36

Westbrook on: 9.8
Westbrook off: 18.6

On the other hand, Westbrook did have an enormous effect on what Harden was doing.

He is probably shooting less because it is once again his job to be the facilitator of the team. Brooks probably asked Harden to take that role in 2012 but it was Westbrook's role before that and it's Westbrook's role again with Harden out.

I don't know why he's shooting less, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with Harden, since Harden being in the game had very little to no effect on what Westbrook did.

All I know is OKC was dead last in assists last season while they were never that bad in terms of moving the ball before in 2010 or 2011 and they aren't that bad again this season.

OKC %AST (percent of FG assisted)

2009-10: 25th
2010-11: 24th
2011-12: 30th (best offensive season)
2012-13: 11th

The increase in assists has coincided with an increase in turnovers. I don't think generating assists has any correlation to good offense for a team.

I have to disagree with you as well.

Harden not being in the game is kind of irrelevant because the rest of OKC roster wasn't very good offensively. Now you could say that Westbrook assist went down because after the Jeff Green trade the Thunder had worse offensive talent. But it can't be ignored that Harden did run the show and at times almost play PG.

Plus there really no correlation to shooting less and that meaning your assist going up, For example Steve Nash will like match or be under his FGA attempts in Phoenix. I seriously doubt his assist go up because he will likely have to share the ball with Kobe. Harden assist per minute are up despite his FGA per minute being way up. The reality him having the ball moreWestbrook and Durant both are able to run the offense more. Them having the ball is a lot more important than Ibaka now making shots. Add in the fact that unlike Harden. Kevin Martin plays off the ball as well as any guard in the league. Has over 70% of his shots assisted. You in essence see why Durant and Westbrook assist are up.

I said before the year that I thought Westbrook would average between 8 to 9 assist this year. It was really based on him being allowed to play more like he did prior to the expansion of Harden's role. I thought a year ago Westbrook played off the ball to much. I understood it because Harden was so good in PNR. Without Harden I think both Westbrook and Durant are allowed to be the players they are capable of being. In reality Westbrook is one big shooting night from being right around the same amount of shots per game he was a year ago. Him going down 3 assist per game and then right back up 3 assist a game is not just about shot attempts.

[Bandwagon1]

Hell no.


/thread

[bbms]

Westbrook and Durant On-Off TOV% differential this season versus last season has something to say about James Harden departure...

Ridiculous, whenever Durant steps on the court, Thunder improves -5% TOV, and Westbrook is -6%. Thunder really have no ball handlers outside of this two.

His playmaking skills look very ordinary to me. He can disrupt defenses with his speed, but is court vision isn't very strong. He has a usage rate of 29.4% (2nd highest in the league), of course he's gonna get some assists. 8-9 APG actually doesn't tell us much. Jose is a pretty poor playmaker and he gets like 8-9 assists in 30 min.

ooooooooooooh, really? Let's look at the top 10 usage players in the NBA. These guys should all be averaging 8+ assists because "you're just going to get some assists" right?

Carmelo - 1.8
Westbrook - 8.6
Cousins - 2.0
Monta - 5.8
Lebron - 6.5
Irving - 5.6
Harden - 4.7
Kobe - 5.4
Pierce - 3.0
Durant - 4.7

Hmmmmmmmmm, Westbrook is leading the top 10 usage players in assists by a huge margin (including lebron james). Where are all lebron's assists? His usage rate is high so he should have 9 a game right?

Or maybe Westbrook is actually a pretty decent playmaker. Three years ago he averaged 8.0 assists, two years ago 8.3 assists, and last year he had much less playmaking duties due to Harden's emergence. This year he's back up to 8.6.

If you have 4 seasons like this 8.0, 8.3, 5.5, 8.6; there is an obvious outlier and an obvious average.

Check Westbrook apg numbers pre/post Jeff Green trade at 2011.

[Pharmcat]

They will miss harden in the playoffs.

[mysticbb]

His shooting line is 49%/54%/95% with a NBA-leading 71 TS%. Let's not forget a 62 eFg%, 22.5 PER, and 129 Offensive Rating.

He obviously can't keep this up, right? Right?!

Kevin Martin started the 2006/07 season with the following scoring numbers for the first 15 games: 22.8 points per 36 min on 69 TS%. Right now he has 21.3 per 36 on 71 TS%. In the last 65 games of the 2006/07 season Martin had 20.1 points per 36 min on 60 TS%. People really need to understand sample size in such a case. It is unlikely that Martin will keep that up for the whole season, it is more likely that he will have between 60 and 62 TS% for the remaining games of the season than staying at 71 TS%.

[GnarlesOakley]

They will miss harden in the playoffs.

Because Harden was such a difference maker in the finals.

[Axel]

Martin is a proven scorer. So far all of Harden's scoring has come against bad teams. And when he goes against good teams he needs 20 attempts to get 20 pts and is a turnover machine.

And that is called the Monta Ellis effect, Monta Ellis was fine as a third option, super efficient and suddenly now he's the star and he shoots 43 to 45 percent after being a 50 percent shooter.

Its generally a bad idea in all sports when you try to take a complimentary piece from a winning team and think he can be the primary piece on another team with the same success.

When you think about it, how many 6th men in history can you think of that went to another team as the main guy and ever led them into contenders?

Some players are made for certain roles. If you aquire them its best to keep them in that same role they had success in. When you pay them max money though you have no choice but to make them the main guy. The end result is usually a guy who puts up a lot of pts, but does it on a lot shots, and doesn't lead their team anywhere.

Joe Johnson FTW!