Image ImageImage Image

Crazy Idea-Trade Coby

Moderators: HomoSapien, kulaz3000, Michael Jackson, Ice Man, dougthonus, Tommy Udo 6 , DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, Payt10, RedBulls23, coldfish, AshyLarrysDiaper, fleet

Please vote on this 2 step plan to start over but keep the $ coming in

1-This is a really stupid idea
10
38%
2-It's different, but not the right path
3
12%
3-It's an idea to consider and might have legs
10
38%
4-It's genius, call AKME
3
12%
 
Total votes: 26

League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 33,306
And1: 9,159
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#41 » by League Circles » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:45 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
drosestruts wrote:
But, sure, there's logic in trading guys like Coby, Ayo, and Williams for future draft capital if entering a rebuild.



Those are the types of guys you absolutely do not trade if you enter a full rebuild. You trade the vets for young or future assets while empowering and developing the more veteran youth as leaders to fully see what you have.


I think it really just depends what they can fetch. Neither Coby nor Ayo are going to be value deals on their next contract. They're going to be like two Zach LaVine's. Good players that you're forced to lose or overpay that were beloved when on their underpaid deal and complained about once they're on their new deals.

They have different concerns than Zach, so the comparison is only contractual, but people aren't going to be psyched about these guys when they make 35M each.


It sounds like you basically think that it's inevitable that all non contracts that are above MLE but below max (for true stars) will be bad contracts. I get the idea, and it's not insane, but it's a little extreme. Also a lot of blame goes to teams for botching negotiations IMO. A LOT of nba players are unnecessarily overpaid. I find it hard to imagine Ayo getting 35 mil a year, or maybe even Coby. Their age windows are unique though.
https://august-shop.com/ - sneakers and streetwear
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 55,639
And1: 15,753
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#42 » by dougthonus » Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:08 pm

League Circles wrote:It sounds like you basically think that it's inevitable that all non contracts that are above MLE but below max (for true stars) will be bad contracts. I get the idea, and it's not insane, but it's a little extreme. Also a lot of blame goes to teams for botching negotiations IMO. A LOT of nba players are unnecessarily overpaid. I find it hard to imagine Ayo getting 35 mil a year, or maybe even Coby. Their age windows are unique though.


It's not really botched negotiations and it isn't that guys are overpaid.

The total amount of salary in the league is contractually obligated. Certain classes of players are prohibited from getting market value due to artificial caps on their salary, that excess money has to go somewhere by the rules of the CBA. If you have rough salary parity, you win by having the guys on your team with artificial constraints that are worth more than their salaries.

Two guys who are 25, have shown great improvement, are unrestricted free agents, and will be in their full prime for the entire length of the deals with no meaningful injury concerns in their career (obviously could change over the next two years) are prime targets to take on that excess money and be viewed as good risks to take.

Fred VanVleet just got a 30% max coming off of basically 3 consistent seasons of about 19/7 per 36 with declining defensive impact. That's basically what Coby White has done this year and will have less risks going forward.

Granted, if both guys are just having good blips and don't sustain the current level / make iterative improvements then they may not get that, but then they also won't be worth much to us either. If they do sustain that performance / make improvements then it's hard to see a scenario where they aren't getting maxes IMO.

This works out for the Bulls only if they both improve enough that the 25% max is a bargain. It's all speculation of course, I'm just stating the case of why there is some real risk there. That's the tough thing about being mediocre without flexibility. It's really hard to get out of it.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 20,922
And1: 8,323
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#43 » by Stratmaster » Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:08 pm

League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:Sounds like an extremely arbitrarily chosen set of thresholds. What is the significance of 20 shots? Or 20 points? For example, in the games where Coby shot 20 times, was he avergaing 21 shots compared to 27 shots for Zach? Not saying he was, just saying you're not providing any relevant information to make your point.
You don't provide any relevant information, period. Just that "you think" something.

Let me state it again and leave Lavine out of it. 4 out of 9 games when Coby took 20 or more shots, he didn't score 20 points. Smart offense?

The 20 points equates to 1 point per shot which is pretty bad efficency.

The 20 shots equates to "a lot of **** shots and usage that should result in points scored"

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app


Others made a claim that Coby was streaky. I'm simply asking of anyone has any information that he is streakier than peers (higher volume perimeter players). You've provided nothing of the sort. To be fair, I think all higher volume perimeter shooters are streakier than the average nba player, but that's not what you guys are implying.

Smart offense isn't about how efficient you are at shooting in your 9 highest FGA games. I'd have to watch the games to comment. Not even saying Coby is a super smart player. But Zach is a proven dumb player, very routinely taking ill advised shots early in the shot clock as the most glaring example.

There are smarter players than Zach or Coby that routinely have worse efficiency in games, like a Jimmy Butler.

The only reasonable objective info that either of us have brought to this exchange is me pointing out that Coby's on/off numbers have been MUCH better than Zach's for the last 2 seasons, despite Zach having higher ts% and ppg than Coby last year. Kevin Martin sucked too. The only reason I brought up Zach is because I knew it would be fun to watch you struggle to juxtapose him and Coby, and I was right. Again, if anyone has a shred of evidence that Coby is streakier than his peers, I'd love to hear it. If you instead want to tell me about Zach's ppg please go for it. It's humorous.
Oh ffs. So now you're going to move this to a "Zach sucks" discussion. And admit that you were doing nothing other than trolling.

Talk to yourself in the future like you were.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 33,306
And1: 9,159
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#44 » by League Circles » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:48 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:You don't provide any relevant information, period. Just that "you think" something.

Let me state it again and leave Lavine out of it. 4 out of 9 games when Coby took 20 or more shots, he didn't score 20 points. Smart offense?

The 20 points equates to 1 point per shot which is pretty bad efficency.

The 20 shots equates to "a lot of **** shots and usage that should result in points scored"

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app


Others made a claim that Coby was streaky. I'm simply asking of anyone has any information that he is streakier than peers (higher volume perimeter players). You've provided nothing of the sort. To be fair, I think all higher volume perimeter shooters are streakier than the average nba player, but that's not what you guys are implying.

Smart offense isn't about how efficient you are at shooting in your 9 highest FGA games. I'd have to watch the games to comment. Not even saying Coby is a super smart player. But Zach is a proven dumb player, very routinely taking ill advised shots early in the shot clock as the most glaring example.

There are smarter players than Zach or Coby that routinely have worse efficiency in games, like a Jimmy Butler.

The only reasonable objective info that either of us have brought to this exchange is me pointing out that Coby's on/off numbers have been MUCH better than Zach's for the last 2 seasons, despite Zach having higher ts% and ppg than Coby last year. Kevin Martin sucked too. The only reason I brought up Zach is because I knew it would be fun to watch you struggle to juxtapose him and Coby, and I was right. Again, if anyone has a shred of evidence that Coby is streakier than his peers, I'd love to hear it. If you instead want to tell me about Zach's ppg please go for it. It's humorous.
Oh ffs. So now you're going to move this to a "Zach sucks" discussion. And admit that you were doing nothing other than trolling.

Talk to yourself in the future like you were.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

It was hyperbole. I don't think Zach sucks, but his positive impact is obviously in question and it's not because of his skills or work ethic. It's because of his consistently questionable decision making.

I wasn't trolling for fun, but I was trying to get you to realize that your baseless claim about Coby being streaky needs something to support it, and you can't even be bothered to examine your beloved Zach by the same standards but instead resort to laughably arbitrary threshold stats because perhaps you're afraid that a simple examination of Zach will reveal the same conclusion about streakiness that your small sample guesswork claims about Coby.
https://august-shop.com/ - sneakers and streetwear
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 33,306
And1: 9,159
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#45 » by League Circles » Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:45 pm

dougthonus wrote:
League Circles wrote:It sounds like you basically think that it's inevitable that all non contracts that are above MLE but below max (for true stars) will be bad contracts. I get the idea, and it's not insane, but it's a little extreme. Also a lot of blame goes to teams for botching negotiations IMO. A LOT of nba players are unnecessarily overpaid. I find it hard to imagine Ayo getting 35 mil a year, or maybe even Coby. Their age windows are unique though.


It's not really botched negotiations and it isn't that guys are overpaid.

The total amount of salary in the league is contractually obligated. Certain classes of players are prohibited from getting market value due to artificial caps on their salary, that excess money has to go somewhere by the rules of the CBA. If you have rough salary parity, you win by having the guys on your team with artificial constraints that are worth more than their salaries.

Two guys who are 25, have shown great improvement, are unrestricted free agents, and will be in their full prime for the entire length of the deals with no meaningful injury concerns in their career (obviously could change over the next two years) are prime targets to take on that excess money and be viewed as good risks to take.

Fred VanVleet just got a 30% max coming off of basically 3 consistent seasons of about 19/7 per 36 with declining defensive impact. That's basically what Coby White has done this year and will have less risks going forward.

Granted, if both guys are just having good blips and don't sustain the current level / make iterative improvements then they may not get that, but then they also won't be worth much to us either. If they do sustain that performance / make improvements then it's hard to see a scenario where they aren't getting maxes IMO.

This works out for the Bulls only if they both improve enough that the 25% max is a bargain. It's all speculation of course, I'm just stating the case of why there is some real risk there. That's the tough thing about being mediocre without flexibility. It's really hard to get out of it.


The only guys artificially limited are guys making the max but worth more, guys on rookie scale deals (many/most of whom are actually overpaid I'd argue instead of underpaid). In a sense you could say that a lot of guys are artificially limited by their contract status, because many guys improve or decline substantially over the course of their deals.

The excess doesn't have to go to anyone. If it's not paid out directly in voluntary player contracts then everybody just gets prorated bonuses at the end of the year, so that issue shouldn't affect relative worth.

We also don't have anything remotely approaching relative salary parity between teams.

Van vleet is an interesting case study, because IMO he's highly overrated / overpaid, but ironically, I think that's WHY he's overpaid. He's one of those guys that you can actually get if you pay up. The same could be true of Coby or Ayo, but I think most teams will assume that we will "match" (exceed via 5 year deal and larger raises) and that will scare a lot of suitors off. I could be wrong though. Also, VV got only 2 years guaranteed.
https://august-shop.com/ - sneakers and streetwear
League Circles
RealGM
Posts: 33,306
And1: 9,159
Joined: Dec 04, 2001
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#46 » by League Circles » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:45 am

A package of Coby, Caruso, and Vuc probably gets you a real chance at a star in trade this summer though, especially if we add the #11 pick. That's really a hell of a haul. And we should absolutely be looking at that. Would clear up a position log jam.
https://august-shop.com/ - sneakers and streetwear
meekrab
RealGM
Posts: 12,214
And1: 8,937
Joined: Dec 15, 2014

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#47 » by meekrab » Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:23 am

Yeah let's get fleeced by the Magic again that sounds fun.
WindyCityBorn
RealGM
Posts: 20,423
And1: 10,789
Joined: Jun 26, 2014
     

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#48 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:44 am

Trading Coby only makes sense if we are entering full-on tank rebuild. Trading Coby while re-signing DeRozan and keeping Vuc to continue mediocrity would the dumbest decision making possible.

Considering Coby’s age I would keep even through rebuild. There is a VERY LOW chance we would any realistic Coby trade right now.

This is an awful idea.
Bullflip
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,077
And1: 847
Joined: May 29, 2008

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#49 » by Bullflip » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:02 am

Coby will never be a #1 or #2 guy on a contending team. His ceiling is probably a #3 guy. That being said, I would keep him because he is young and he is our only consistent 3 point threat (even though he is not shooting well these past few games)
Jeffster81
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,003
And1: 1,763
Joined: May 24, 2007
Location: Bazinga
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#50 » by Jeffster81 » Fri Mar 29, 2024 11:22 am

I don't know what the correct answer is, and I doubt AKME does either. You trade Coby and he takes off and people will moan and complain about "giving" Coby away. You keep Coby and he continues to be a useful but not a star player and play will complain that you should have traded him while his value was high.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 55,639
And1: 15,753
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#51 » by dougthonus » Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:44 pm

League Circles wrote:The only guys artificially limited are guys making the max but worth more, guys on rookie scale deals (many/most of whom are actually overpaid I'd argue instead of underpaid). In a sense you could say that a lot of guys are artificially limited by their contract status, because many guys improve or decline substantially over the course of their deals.


If you view the value of a contract _only_ in its present oncourt ability, a good chunk of rookies are overpaid, but if you view the value of a contract as being part present value and part future value, then rookies are vastly, vastly underpaid. Also the ones that hit are underpaid by so much that it makes up for probably 10 guys who don't pan out.

It's like the stock market, if you bought Amazon 20 years ago, it doesn't matter how many other losers you also bought, your portfolio killed the S&P500. The sum total of rookie deals are vastly underpaid. If you look at the total value of a rookie class when they hit year 5, I guarantee you it's way more expensive than it was in year 4, even when the rookie deals take a steep upward curve and even accounting for the 0s for guys who don't pan out at all.

There are obviously issues where guys value changes over the course of their deal due to injury or positive/negative changes in performance as well, so that's a good addition, though a lot of those guys are probably similarly valuable in many respects, but people are just annoyed because they aren't super valuable. People want guys to generate massive wins on their expensive deals, but not everyone can win, so probably something like 70% of teams each year will be disappointed.

The excess doesn't have to go to anyone. If it's not paid out directly in voluntary player contracts then everybody just gets prorated bonuses at the end of the year, so that issue shouldn't affect relative worth.


Yes, everyone could choose to have a worse team and not sign anyone. Unsurprisingly though, the teams seem to want to win and sign players in a zero-sum market where they bid up the best players available rather than just pro-rating out more money to players under contract and having worse teams.

We also don't have anything remotely approaching relative salary parity between teams.


Relative in the sense that the way the league rules are structured, there are very limited bidders. Yes, not everyone has the same contracts given out (and certainly no where near the same cash given out when you account for luxury tax), but the teams that are over the cap are largely prevented from bidding, teams over the various aprons have structural rules limiting what they are allowed to do.

From a bidding perspective, you can't just offer up anything for the players you want.

Van vleet is an interesting case study, because IMO he's highly overrated / overpaid, but ironically, I think that's WHY he's overpaid. He's one of those guys that you can actually get if you pay up. The same could be true of Coby or Ayo, but I think most teams will assume that we will "match" (exceed via 5 year deal and larger raises) and that will scare a lot of suitors off. I could be wrong though. Also, VV got only 2 years guaranteed.


I think the semantics are important here, and you put "match" in quotes for a reason, but to blow this out. These negotiations will likely take place illegally during the quiet period, and a team will have no cost to offering either guy a 4 year max. If they say no and the Bulls agree to a 5 year max under the table at the same time, then it doesn't hurt the team for having talked to them and made the offer because unlike restricted free agency, there is no offer sheet and their money isn't tied up.

Again, for that scenario to play out, both guys have to stay playing really well over the next two years, but if that happens you're in a tough spot with both guys. The Bulls getting forced into two five year maxes is exactly the reason why you might consider such a trade now. I'm not saying you have to do it, there's no obvious "trade these guys and profit" plan, just that tying up 70M-80M in those two guys probably also puts you in a similarly tough spot to where you are now.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter
User avatar
Lexluthor
Rookie
Posts: 1,032
And1: 405
Joined: Mar 12, 2004

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#52 » by Lexluthor » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:48 pm

meekrab wrote:Yeah let's get fleeced by the Magic again that sounds fun.

Not really Franz Wagner is a good player but not a franchise player and Jett Howard is a bust and Wendell Carter is still meh
Stratmaster
RealGM
Posts: 20,922
And1: 8,323
Joined: Oct 02, 2010
       

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#53 » by Stratmaster » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:09 pm

League Circles wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Others made a claim that Coby was streaky. I'm simply asking of anyone has any information that he is streakier than peers (higher volume perimeter players). You've provided nothing of the sort. To be fair, I think all higher volume perimeter shooters are streakier than the average nba player, but that's not what you guys are implying.

Smart offense isn't about how efficient you are at shooting in your 9 highest FGA games. I'd have to watch the games to comment. Not even saying Coby is a super smart player. But Zach is a proven dumb player, very routinely taking ill advised shots early in the shot clock as the most glaring example.

There are smarter players than Zach or Coby that routinely have worse efficiency in games, like a Jimmy Butler.

The only reasonable objective info that either of us have brought to this exchange is me pointing out that Coby's on/off numbers have been MUCH better than Zach's for the last 2 seasons, despite Zach having higher ts% and ppg than Coby last year. Kevin Martin sucked too. The only reason I brought up Zach is because I knew it would be fun to watch you struggle to juxtapose him and Coby, and I was right. Again, if anyone has a shred of evidence that Coby is streakier than his peers, I'd love to hear it. If you instead want to tell me about Zach's ppg please go for it. It's humorous.
Oh ffs. So now you're going to move this to a "Zach sucks" discussion. And admit that you were doing nothing other than trolling.

Talk to yourself in the future like you were.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

It was hyperbole. I don't think Zach sucks, but his positive impact is obviously in question and it's not because of his skills or work ethic. It's because of his consistently questionable decision making.

I wasn't trolling for fun, but I was trying to get you to realize that your baseless claim about Coby being streaky needs something to support it, and you can't even be bothered to examine your beloved Zach by the same standards but instead resort to laughably arbitrary threshold stats because perhaps you're afraid that a simple examination of Zach will reveal the same conclusion about streakiness that your small sample guesswork claims about Coby.
There is no world where your beloved Coby, at his best, has come anywhere close to the level of performance of Zach Lavine's average play as a Chicago Bull. But keep dreaming.

I gave you facts. You decided they weren't good enough and offered nothing other than on/off, which is a BS stat for individual players and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Other than that you are basically saying "there might be other players just as streaky". Then you ask me to do research to prove your theory for you.

Coby is streaky. Deal with it.



Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app
sco
RealGM
Posts: 23,652
And1: 7,656
Joined: Sep 22, 2003
Location: Virtually Everywhere!

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#54 » by sco » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:52 pm

I think the whole notion of trading Coby (or really anyone) is what do you get back. Coby is young, good, on a cheap deal, and likely to improve from here. That said, he hasn't kept his hot streak going for more than a couple months.

Would I trade him with Vuc for Chris Paul? No

Would I trade him for a top 5 pick? Yes

Would I trade him for a guy like Kuminga? Yes
:clap:
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 55,639
And1: 15,753
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

Re: Crazy Idea-Trade Coby 

Post#55 » by dougthonus » Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:15 pm

Lexluthor wrote:
meekrab wrote:Yeah let's get fleeced by the Magic again that sounds fun.

Not really Franz Wagner is a good player but not a franchise player and Jett Howard is a bust and Wendell Carter is still meh


I didn't realize you can only get fleeced in a trade if you get a trash player and give up a franchise player.

This was a bottom 3 trade in franchise history when you consider both context and what was achieved. The Jalen Rose deal was the only one that is really in the running for just completely dumb on the surface.
http://linktr.ee/bullsbeat - links to the bullsbeat podcast
@doug_thonus on twitter

Return to Chicago Bulls