Realgm NBA Awards Draft and Simulation Game (Congrats P4P!)

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

Alright sweet. I'm just waiting on Tetlaks depth chart.

As for the matchup between P4P and kulaz, P4P leads 5-2 with DJHill, bledredwine, and Proven_Winner who need to vote. I have sent them reminders.

[RastaBull]

Alright sweet. I'm just waiting on Tetlaks depth chart.

As for the matchup between P4P and kulaz, P4P leads 5-2 with DJHill, bledredwine, and Proven_Winner who need to vote. I have sent them reminders.

ChicagoSportsFan21 asked me to cast my vote for P4P v kulaz considering the other poster might not vote.

I went back and forth on this one so many times. I decided not to let the simulation influence me too much, and went to basketball reference to look into each season to see where the advantages/disadvantages were. Boy was it tough.

Backcourt
At first glance, Ray Allen seemingly gives kulaz an easy 3P shooting advantage. In 88-89, Dumars was NOT a 3P shooter (0.2/0.4) while Ray was jacking them up (2.5/5.7: 43%). Ray was the better scorer, but also a big rebounder for his position (5.2 rpg, the best of his career). AND, you have him sharing the back-court with Kidd who averaged an insane 6.8 rpg in 98-99. That's 12 rpg from his starting backcourt compared to typical 5.2 combined rpg from Dumars and Mark Price. That's a big advantage for kulaz, and with Moses and Russell starting upfront that's going to translate to extra FGA each game.

Kidd wasn't an exceptional 3P shooter at only 36%, while Price was pretty silky smooth in 92-93 (1.6/3.9: 42%). Kidd obviously a great distributor already (led the league in apg), but Dumars was a great passer at this point in his career, working really well with the multiple scoring options around him (5.2 apg). ALL-IN-ALL, Kidd and Ray are going to score more and rebound more, fitting great for kulaz, so they get the advantage. (However, it's not by a wide margin when I take into account that Dumars shot 51% FG that year and Price 48%...there two might not shoot as much but they will be ultra efficient, limiting the whole rebounding factor just a bit).

Pause
Vince Carter's presence as 6th man totally balances out the perimeter scoring imo. In just his second year, Vince was an animal, scoring 25 ppg, taking over games, high volume shooting at 20 FGA on 47%, and even 40% 3P on 2.9 attempts. Also chipped in 5.8 rpg and 3.9 apg. Versatility to play SF. Michael Cooper was a great defender, but in 4+apg, but all of a sudden I see the backcourts much more of a wash (I should say that I can't separate KJ and Deron...both in their prime were elite athletes and wonderful orchestrating pushing the ball).

Frontcourt
I think Russell is the only one that could handle Wilt, but even then, I don't see him being stopped. I personally like the KG/Wilt frontcourt more than Russell/Moses. KG was wicked in 02-03, the best all around year for a forward in years (his 6 apg are as wild as Kidd rebounding). I just see the combo playing off eachother so beautifully with Wilt hanging round the rim and KG finding him over and over. WhatIfSports says Wilt average 5 bpg, and his youth I think would do a much better job protecting the rim against the likes of Moses then the simulation.

While Marion is a superb x-factor for kulaz, what sells me on the front court is the combo of Ming and O'Neal in their prime. O'Neal was athletic and a smart/strong rebounder, and Ming was possibly one of the most interesting anomalies in the NBA. Ming wouldn't dominate any second unit bigs kulaz put out there.

The Doc
I feel like the backcourt is a wash, maybe a slight edge to kulaz. The front court seems an edge to P4P, but Moses/Russell are so good it could just be a matter of preference. Ultimately though, I gotta vote for P4P because of the Doctor! With all the start talent, Erving might just be the best two-way player in this series: 1.8 blocks, 2.1 steals, 8 rpg, a 97 defensive rating! The size and IQ to play PF in the right match-ups (Moses is not the right match-up though haha). And then electric scoring. As much as I like Worthy, Erving is lightyears ahead of them and the game-changer in the series for me. Doc, KG, Wilt just seems like an insane trio to try and stop.

My vote goes to P4P.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

Very well said, RastaBull. It shows that you put a lot of thought into your vote. With that vote, Polynice4Pippen wins the participants voting 6-2! It's a TIE (1-1). This is the first time that judges will be involved as tiebreakers. P4P or kulaz will need 3/5 votes from the judges to move on to the next round. The judges are dougthonus, King Cuban, fleet, Gar Paxdorf, and Michael Jackson who will be posting in this thread shortly on who they think should move on. GOOD LUCK!

I received the depth chart/explanation from Tetlak and depth chart from Win City (waiting on explanation). I will be posting the simulations for game 1-3 soon.

[WinCity]

Very well said, RastaBull. It shows that you put a lot of thought into your vote. With that vote, Polynice4Pippen wins the participants voting 6-2! It's a TIE (1-1). This is the first time that judges will be involved as tiebreakers. P4P or kulaz will need 3/5 votes from the judges to move on to the next round. The judges are dougthonus, King Cuban, fleet, Gar Paxdorf, and Michael Jackson who will be posting in this thread shortly on who they think should move on. GOOD LUCK!

I received the depth chart/explanation from Tetlak and depth chart from Win City (waiting on explanation). I will be posting the simulations for game 1-3 soon.

My explanation wont really change.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

Very well said, RastaBull. It shows that you put a lot of thought into your vote. With that vote, Polynice4Pippen wins the participants voting 6-2! It's a TIE (1-1). This is the first time that judges will be involved as tiebreakers. P4P or kulaz will need 3/5 votes from the judges to move on to the next round. The judges are dougthonus, King Cuban, fleet, Gar Paxdorf, and Michael Jackson who will be posting in this thread shortly on who they think should move on. GOOD LUCK!

I received the depth chart/explanation from Tetlak and depth chart from Win City (waiting on explanation). I will be posting the simulations for game 1-3 soon.

My explanation wont really change.

Okay, I will use the same as previous round. Thanks for letting me know!

[League Circles]

I officially vote for Polynice4Pippen to win over Kulaz. If I have to vote on a poll let me know you can't see them in the android app I could go to my computer otherwise I'm lying in bed haha

It's largely a matchup where P4P's frontcourt strength outweighs Kulaz's better backcourt. I'm a Wilt over Russell guy, and especially Dr J over Worthy I think is an advantage.

I do think giving Williams some minutes over Price may be required. Also the lack of another guard on the bench concerns me, but if you're willing to play huge if needed with KG at the SF or hell even guarding a SG which I think he'd do great, I give the edge.

Kulaz's is great too but I'm not a Moses expert and wouldn't rank Russell among the best players ever.

I'm not a historian and feel a little ignorant about what came pre-80s, but I can't help but feel like P4P may have the best several players in the game with Wilt, Dr J, and perhaps even KG is better than any of Kulaz's guys.

[kingkirk]

ChicagoSportsFan21 has asked me to vote betwen P4P and Kulaz. I am at work, and want to put some serious thought into it, so my response may be several hours delayed.

Hope this is ok. Initially, looks damn tough to decide.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

ChicagoSportsFan21 has asked me to vote betwen P4P and Kulaz. I am at work, and want to put some serious thought into it, so my response may be several hours delayed.

Hope this is ok. Initially, looks damn tough to decide.

No problem. Thanks for letting us know!

[dougthonus]

My vote on the tiebreaker goes something like this:

Kidd >> Price (Kidd was just a far better player, and you're getting him at his peak. Price was good, but Kidd was an elite PG)
Allen >> Dumars (More or less same as above, prime Ray Allen is almost like the ideal SG)
Worthy << Dr. J (Dr. J.'s a much better player than Worthy who's stats were inflated by being the third guy people cared about on the Lakers)
Malone > Garnett (If you didn't know much about Malone, you wouldn't realize how much ass this guy totally kicked)
Russell >> Wilt [wanted to comment on this specifically, Russell dominated Wilt when they played, and this was Wilt's rookie year where his percentages were well down from what he did later, experienced Russell completely neuters Wilt IMO].

After evaluating the starters, I felt Kulaz had a pretty large advantage.

That said, I think P4P has a stronger bench. However, I didn't measure every guy up against each other though, because this isn't a 12 on 12 contest. If you're simulating a real game, it's really top eight vs top eight in the playoffs. I think Kulaz's best players defeat P4P's best players, so I give him my vote.

[kingkirk]

Ok, here are my thoughts.

Guards

P4P - Price, Dumars, Carter, Williams
Kulaz - Kidd, Allen, Johnson, Richardson, Smith

I have to go with Kulaz here.

For me, Kidd and Allen is a near perfect back court. Jason Kidd is an MVP candidate from the point spoint, and i believe Allen to be the greatest shooter the game has ever seen. In a fast paced offense, these 2 would be unreal. I think their is some serious height issues for P4P in that back court. 3 of the 4 guys are no bigger than 6'3".

Then you have the back up guards. I think Kulaz's back up PG is better than both of P4Ps PGs. Massive fan of KJ and his dynamic and above the rim play. Carter vs Richardson/Smith as a combination is a wash for me.

Forwards

P4P - Erving, Garnett, O'Neal, Kukoc, Kirilenko
Kulaz - Worthy, Malone, Cooper, Marion

I pick P4P here.

I like the versatility among those forwards. Garnett, O'Neal & Kirilenko is some serious defensive potential amongst the forwards. JO, KG, Kirilenko & Kukoc can all play multiple positions and are quick enough to rotate on screens whilst also dominating the boards.

Is Cooper a real SF, or is he more a swingman in a similar vain to what Richardson is already providing?

P4P also has the best player amongst all the forwards in DR J.

Centers

P4P - Wilt, M Gasol, Ming
Kulaz - Russell, P Gasol, Cousins

This was the hardest position to determine a winner on. Wilt versus Russell is a legendary match up, and the Gasol brothers going up against each would be great to see.

I couldn't pick a winner here, so in conjunction with the forwards, i think the advantage lies with P4P.

For me, dominant big men win titles.

P4P

PF: KG, O'Neal
C: Wilt, Ming, M Gasol

vs

Kulaz

PF: Malone, Marion
C: Russell, P Gasol, Cousins

The lack of a second PF hurts Kulaz here, though Marion is capable of playing that position. By winning the front court battle, i think some of the issues raised for P4P in the guard play, where i think Kulaz has him covered, i think this would help mitigate those weaknesses.

I pick P4P. If Kulaz had more versatility in that front court, and a PF in instead of Michael Cooper, i would have selected him because his guards are great.

[Michael Jackson]

Very well said, RastaBull. It shows that you put a lot of thought into your vote. With that vote, Polynice4Pippen wins the participants voting 6-2! It's a TIE (1-1). This is the first time that judges will be involved as tiebreakers. P4P or kulaz will need 3/5 votes from the judges to move on to the next round. The judges are dougthonus, King Cuban, fleet, Gar Paxdorf, and Michael Jackson who will be posting in this thread shortly on who they think should move on. GOOD LUCK!

I received the depth chart/explanation from Tetlak and depth chart from Win City (waiting on explanation). I will be posting the simulations for game 1-3 soon.

I need to look at this more before voting I am traveling today may not get to this until later tonight.

[WinCity]

Its cool that everyone is giving this so much thought.

[JDRochholz]

We definitely need to do this again. The involvement and thoughts on these matchups is impressive

[RastaBull]

Its cool that everyone is giving this so much thought.

All the match-ups deserve it, but this one especially. It's SOOO close. And everyone's coming down to the same sort of thought...on one hand you have Kidd/Allen, one of the best possible back-court pairings...on the other hand you have Dr. J....on one hand you have Moses Russell (I'm not even gonna lie...i might name a child that)...on the other hand you have KG and Wilt.

kulaz gets extra FGA from a big rebounding edge, but P4P balances it out with an insanely talented and versatile defense (I was pretty awe-struck by Dr. J's defensive numbers and advanced metrics for that year)

Very great match-up...and super props to our supreme court judges for taking the time to help us out.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

This match-up is definitely going down to the wire. 2-1 votes in favor of P4P. Two judges need to vote still and they are Michael Jackson and fleet. The participant needs 3 votes to move on to the next round.

[Michael Jackson]

Ok off of work back from Michigan and I am d gigging into this. Incredibly tough choice here. I'll post my thoughts in a bit and my vote.

[Michael Jackson]

Ok first the guards.

It has already been said, but Kulaz wins this one. Kidd and Jesus would be an insanely amazing combo. The complimentary play from those two would be great. Price and Dumars are no slouches by any means and carter off the bench well Fredrik Wiess just peed himself somewhere but Kulaz has the nod here.

Forwards

I may be mistaken but Moses was the first prep to pro and wasn't KG the second? I know there was a big gap. Kemp had a year of JuCo and was considered by some but doesn't qualify. Anyway I digress.

Moses was amazing. I did a draft like this once and had Moses and Karl. The two PF's that would scare me more would be Duncan, KG. PF is a near wash at starter but I like that KG did all the small things in minny.

SF. Dr J is better. Sorry big game James ( and I love the showtime lakers and James as a Tarheel).

So the bench. AK 47 not a bad 13th man but I look at real playing time, JO/Kukoc vs Cooper/ Marion. I love Marion. That being said if Toni had his whole career in the NBA under Phil and didn't smoke during timeouts ( kidding that was Mark Grace) he would have been maybe top 50. If we are judging primes, p4p wins the bench. He wins the category IMHO the one thing I might be wrong on is Malone being slightly edged out by KG.


Centers

Maybe the greatest argument ever. In Basketball we know who the goat is. MJ. No one argues. Best pg? Some argument positions are all argued but center is the toughest. It is a tall mans game. So it truly comes down to this. These two are always debated. Russell possibly the best defensive player ever vs Wilt the man who was impossible to stop. Wilts stats are through the roof. Bill has 11 rings and was the man who contained wilt. There is no escaping controversy with this.

Bench. Prime being assumed Ming if heathy was something. Not that wilt wouldn't be playing 48 a game but Russell would need a step ladder still lol. He just was by far the most skilled giant ever eaton eat your heart out. Pau is better than Marc but off the bench I may prefer Marc. Cousins. Man he has the skills but well he wouldn't see the court with these teams... Yet.

So back to wilt and Russell. Bill has the pedigree for sure he gave wilt fits indeed, some say on the early bulls teams though that Dumars gave MJ fits. My nod goes to wilt. He didn't score all the time when got his ring, he was a complete player, you think Noah was a good passer in the post, see Wilt. It can be argued either way I understand but P4P.


Not just broken down by the three segments but ultimately my vote is P4P sorry Kulaz. One hell of a team you put together. This was a really tough decision.

[Michael Jackson]

Ha I hoped when asked about this voting wouldn't be needed because it is so tough.

[kulaz3000]

Congrats P4P on the win. On the overall talent pool and depth you were always going to win out, but I thought as far as team constructions go and who I envisioned would actually be seeing significant minutes out on the floor in a NBA Finals type of setting my top 8 players would win out in a series, simply based on talent, championship experience and match ups. Just talent vs talent wise, I had no chance though.

Again congrats, and in a way, having this match up be decided down to the other judges made it that much more fun and interesting. I appreciate all the other judges who decided and put in so much thought and consideration into their final decisions - it truly made the weeks of drafting worth the while!

I'll be continuing to keep an eye on how things pan out with the rest of the remaining teams! On to the next draft I hope to do with you crazy people!

[Michael Jackson]

Congrats P4P on the win. On the overall talent pool and depth you were always going to win out, but I thought as far as team constructions go and who I envisioned would actually be seeing significant minutes out on the floor in a NBA Finals type of setting my top 8 players would win out in a series, simply based on talent, championship experience and match ups. Just talent vs talent wise, I had no chance though.

Again congrats, and in a way, having this match up be decided down to the other judges made it that much more fun and interesting. I appreciate all the other judges who decided and put in so much thought and consideration into their final decisions - it truly made the weeks of drafting worth the while!

I'll be continuing to keep an eye on how things pan out with the rest of the remaining teams! On to the next draft I hope to do with you crazy people!

If it is any consolation I have a Wilt bias over Bill. I refused to let that be a factor though. It came down ultimately between worthy and Dr J. Your team honestly might have been more cohesive. Real real tough choice. Hated being the deciding vote