The Derrick Rose Thread -MERGING

[GetBuLLish]

Your post seems like disingenuous pandering

Oh the wonderful irony...

[WinCity]

I like that Rose hit a couple of mid range shots. If he keeps improving his shooting rhythm we could be in business sooner than I expected.

[TheJordanRule]

Rose's last 2 healthy years he averaged 7.4 and 8.0 assists per 36. No idea why anyone would use his career numbers when clearly his first two years he was learning to be an NBA point as well as sharing the PG duties with Hinrich.

Because all the other benchwarmer PGs I mentioned were learning to be NBA point guards during their rookie seasons as well. C'mon man, it's a career average assist rate comparison. I hope you aren't advocating selecting Derrick Rose's best two seasons based on some sort of pro-Rose bias. Most of the benchwarmer PGs I mentioned had at least two career seasons that match or best Rose's two highest assist rate seasons as well. Some had more than two.

As the #1 option on his team in the latter 2 years, he is using many more possessions to shoot than most PGs which means less for assists. The Bulls reaching the next level isn't dependent on Rose averaging another assist or two.

I agree that simply averaging another assist or two would not get us to the next level. He could do that now, and it would make our team worse because odds are the extra assists wouldn't stem from a high probability for an assist pass. But even improving his court vision and passing choices from mediocre to good would do wonders for our offense.

As for if Rose isn't the scorer he used to be, the Bulls won't be legit contenders if he's not, and a pure passing PG won't have anything to do with it either way. Having Rondo here or Deron wouldn't change things, as the Bulls need a #1 option more than they need a setup PG.

The Spurs are really hurting with their 4 titles because Tony Parker has a duplicate 6.6 career Ast average...

No one's asking Rose to be a pure passing point guard. Asking Rose to improve at something like passing doesn't mean that passing now has to become his sole identity. If you wanted Brook Lopez to improve at rebounding, it would be weird if someone came back with, "So you want him to basically just be a junkyard rebounder ala Kris Humphries... a guy who just sits in the lane and rebounds all day, and that's it?"

No one's arguing that Rose's scoring isn't more vital to our roster than his passing. You're right, Rondo and Deron don't dominate the game or offer the impact Rose does offensively, even though both guys are better at setting up teammates.

The crux of the argument as I see it is basically that a boost in Rose's court vision is the next logical progression of his game... especially given our roster's construction. We've beat Rose's defensive flaws to death on this board but ever since we picked up Thibs, our team has done a great job of masking Rose's defensive issues. It's on offense where we fail, where we've always failed. Rose to this point has been a volume assist guy. He doesn't actually generate many easy buckets that way. That's not bad to say. That's-- at least as far as I can tell-- just an unfortunate reality.

[Googjob]

I liked what I saw from Derrick offensively, especially in transition. That's where he's going to be most dangerous. His touch is still off but I really think that's going to be something that just takes a couple months. He needs reps in real games. He does need to cut out the dumb 3's and keep his head up a little more when he drives. He's got some great shooters now and needs to use them. Will help open up lanes for him too.

I also think they should run P&R with him and Mirotic. Derrick's never really had that kind of stretch 4 that can knock down a 3 and I think it'd be really tough to stop for a defense.

[bennjuiced34]

I like that Rose hit a couple of mid range shots. If he keeps improving his shooting rhythm we could be in business sooner than I expected.

Those two jumpers were sweet. Especially the one where he pump faked. Do that more often Derrick. Defenders will bite on that. First time I can remember him using a pump fake to get to his mid-range game.

Not a bad overall first game. A little sloppy with the turnovers but he didn't force much and that's key. He trusted his teammates and picked his spots.

Defense needs to get a lot better though. He's not usually that lethargic on that side of the ball. I wonder if his cold took some energy from him.

[Rerisen]

Because all the other benchwarmer PGs I mentioned were learning to be NBA point guards during their rookie seasons as well. C'mon man, it's a career average assist rate comparison. I hope you aren't advocating selecting Derrick Rose's best two seasons based on some sort of pro-Rose bias. Most of the benchwarmer PGs I mentioned had at least two career seasons that match or best Rose's two highest assist rate seasons as well. Some had more than two.

I'm selecting his best seasons because that is the player he most resembles now, not rookie Rose at 20 years old splitting plays with Kirk.

The comparisons are irrelevant, Rose was top ten in the league in assists his last healthy year. If some guy sitting on a bench was actually good enough to play over 30 minutes and could do the same, then they would be a lot better player, but obviously they are not. You are over focusing on a per minute average.

Last year here is the list of all players per 36 assists (click), only 11 players in the whole league averaged more than 8 assists (what Derrick last did healthy)! And only 6 were over 9 assists. Does every PG below those 11 suck? PGs handle the ball a lot and set their team up all game, therefore there simply isn't big stratification in their average assist numbers. The NBA has a small handful of elite passers and everyone else is clumped together. It's not some big gotcha stat. LeBron James is 48th despite being his team's primary playmaker and having the ball all game. Wow, he must suck at passing, look at all the bums ahead of him eh?

I don't routinely see Bulls fans arguing Derrick Rose is one of best passers in the NBA. So I don't get the big crusade. His extreme threat level to penetrate and score is what makes him an above average playmaker. Not his extraordinary vision or technical skills and he'll probably never have that. It's not something that PGs routinely develop into greatness, esp 6 years in. They might improve here or there on the edges.

I agree that simply averaging another assist or two would not get us to the next level. He could do that now, and it would make our team worse because odds are the extra assists wouldn't stem from a high probability for an assist pass. But even improving his court vision and passing choices from mediocre to good would do wonders for our offense.

I would far rather have Rose improve his scoring efficiency - say to .570 TS% like around where Wade has been - as that is Derrick's primary role for this team. We have plenty of other passers, Kirk, Noah, Gasol, unfortunately they can't do it driving the ball, but nonetheless we don't have plenty of other high talent scorers or guys with closing ability.

The crux of the argument as I see it is basically that a boost in Rose's court vision is the next logical progression of his game... especially given our roster's construction. We've beat Rose's defensive flaws to death on this board but ever since we picked up Thibs, our team has done a great job of masking Rose's defensive issues. It's on offense where we fail, where we've always failed. Rose to this point has been a volume assist guy. He doesn't actually generate many easy buckets that way. That's not bad to say. That's-- at least as far as I can tell-- just an unfortunate reality.

If the point is simply Rose could improve any one specific area, of course he could. And he was already progressing in passing in 2012, in PnR, in being more patient, before he started compiling injuries. So maybe he will get back to that once the rust shakes off. To me though, its no more imperative that he improve passing over improving his 3pt shooting, or improving his FT drawing, nor for that matter over other players improving. Noah actually developing a reliable offensive more or two in the post so he isn't clogging up the lane with Gasol would be just as helpful. Or Butler shooting 38% from three again. Or McDermott developing some on ball skills to diversify the one dimensional nature of the team.

This thread is about Rose not others, so that's fine to focus on him here. But when we realistically and holistically look at the team, what stands out to me, is the Bulls only have one good guard/wing playmaker. Not that Derrick Rose isn't passing good enough for the team to win in a totally unconventional fashion that I can't recall any team ever winning with.

I mentioned the Spurs, well if the Bulls had a Manu like player next to Rose, no one would be too worried about his passing, because the team would have plenty of creation skills. And actually it would be far more valuable at this point to inject more into the team from another source, than just Derrick getting better at it. Sure, that would improve the team and he should try to improve all areas, but ultimately we don't want the key to stopping our offense being just stop Derrick Rose. Even much more brilliant passers, in Paul or Nash, have saw their teams runs ended when defending their teams is all about stopping one PG.

[Mech Engineer]

I mentioned the Spurs, well if the Bulls had a Manu like creative player next to Rose, no one would be too worried about his passing, because the team would have plenty of creation skills. And actually it would be far more valuable at this point to inject more into the team from another source, than just Derrick getting better at it. Sure, that would improve the team and he should try to improve all areas, but ultimately we don't want the key to stopping our offense being just stop Derrick Rose. Even much more brilliant passers, in Paul or Nash, have saw their teams runs ended when defending their teams is all about stopping one PG.

Most NBA champions are built based on surrounding the elite player with the right kind of complementary skilled players. No one is a perfect player. MJ had issues with 3 pt shooting. The Bulls had a bunch of 3 pt specialists to take that responsibility away from him for the most part. He didn't want to handle PG type duties and the Bulls had Scottie do that for the most part.

If anything Derrick needs to improve on, it is to become the best at his strengths. That is what decides champions many times. You should be able to showcase/score/defend/rebound or whatever your strength is any time and against any one. Trying to be a jack of all trades should not be his main goal. Off-course, he can improve on passing but there are so many factors relating to chemistry, talent around him. He had guys like Brewer, Bogans, Rip playing SG. And, he has not played for 2 years.

Honestly I don't even know why I am even posting about this

[coldfish]

I see things differently than people in this thread.

IMO, in order for the Bulls to win, Derrick has to do a good job taking what the defense gives him. He isn't Shaq or MJ. He can't consistently beat double and triple teams. When that happens, he has to draw in the coverage and let his teammates carry the offense. That doesn't necessarily mean directly passing it for an assist but it does mean being a smart floor general. When Derrick is matched up 1 on 1 or has an open court opportunity, he has to be aggressive because he can routinely get a high percentage shot.

Derrick has been doing that fantastically well so far this year. He isn't forcing many shots and he is throttling his aggressiveness based on what is available. He is playing very, very smart and its showing up in the team offensive performance so far.

The Bulls can win by sharing the ball and playing good offense. Its not impossible. It is hard though. When teams wratchet up defensive intensity in the playoffs, people have to be sharp. People have to make open shots and they have to beat 1 on 1 defense when the opposing team has put a low end defender on that Bulls player.

........

One side comment about the assists: Rose is a good finisher. Awesome at it. When he gets in close to the hoop, he takes the shot and that's the right call. Most of his assists are drive and kicks. Even if the pass receiver is open, its usually a mid to long range jump shot. You aren't going to get 75%+ of those made.

Some high assist PG's don't look to shoot. They drive and then look for cutters or big men close to the hoop. These are very high percentage shots which will increase assist totals quickly. I have no issue with Rose not really looking for this though because cutters and big men under the hoop just clogs the lane for Rose finishing.

[mj234eva]

show some stat like "Derrick only has 56% of his potential assists converted

For those that need (or want) a stat like that:

Sort by "Assist opportunities" (also called "Potential assists") per game:
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player ... on=2014-15

Then compare that to the players actual assist total.

For the lazy, Derrick had 13 potential assists last night (in only 21 mins), he had 5 actual assists. So, his teammates converted 38.5% of his assist opps.

[kyrv]

show some stat like "Derrick only has 56% of his potential assists converted

For those that need (or want) a stat like that:

Sort by "Assist opportunities" (also called "Potential assists") per game:
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player ... on=2014-15

Then compare that to the players actual assist total.

For the lazy, Derrick had 13 potential assists last night (in only 21 mins), he had 5 actual assists. So, his teammates converted 38.5% of his assist opps.

Sticky material. Sometimes people put way too much importance on the assist statistic. It is completely dependent on another player converting. 100%.

[mj234eva]

Sometimes people put way too much importance on the assist statistic. It is completely dependent on another player converting. 100%.

Agreed totally.

[DanTown8587]

show some stat like "Derrick only has 56% of his potential assists converted

For those that need (or want) a stat like that:

Sort by "Assist opportunities" (also called "Potential assists") per game:
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player ... on=2014-15

Then compare that to the players actual assist total.

For the lazy, Derrick had 13 potential assists last night (in only 21 mins), he had 5 actual assists. So, his teammates converted 38.5% of his assist opps.

Great, now tell me about those 13 shots. Were they jumpers? Layups? Was there time on the shot clock?

Just saying that this stat is a point but not a final destination on the road to analysis.

[mj234eva]

show some stat like "Derrick only has 56% of his potential assists converted

For those that need (or want) a stat like that:

Sort by "Assist opportunities" (also called "Potential assists") per game:
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player ... on=2014-15

Then compare that to the players actual assist total.

For the lazy, Derrick had 13 potential assists last night (in only 21 mins), he had 5 actual assists. So, his teammates converted 38.5% of his assist opps.

Great, now tell me about those 13 shots. Were they jumpers? Layups? Was there time on the shot clock?

Just saying that this stat is a point but not a final destination on the road to analysis.

No one said it was. If you're bored, and have time to waste, you can actually look at video footage of all that stuff yourself via stats.nba.com. However, you'd have to look at every players shot attempt during that game.

Are you willing to do that? I'm not, because I honestly don't care.

[DuckIII]

Are you under the impression that I think Derrick isn't awesome at basketball?

No, but you're talking about "set-up" style PG's as if that's somehow more a winning style of basketball. If it's not, then what's the point in wanting Derrick to play that way? Or be like guys who do...

All I'm doing is discussing a weakness in his game. I'm not talking at all about who I prefer. Rajon Rondo is an elite point guard and one of the best set-up men in the NBA, and I wouldn't trade Derrick Rose for him.

But he's not very good at it. And I'd like to see him get better at it. Which isn't the same thing as saying I want him to morph into Andre Miller and start walking the ball up the court for a set-shot.

[RedBulls23]

All I'm doing is discussing a weakness in his game. I'm not talking at all about who I prefer. Rajon Rondo is an elite point guard and one of the best set-up men in the NBA, and I wouldn't trade Derrick Rose for him.

But he's not very good at it. And I'd like to see him get better at it. Which isn't the same thing as saying I want him to morph into Andre Miller and start walking the ball up the court for a set-shot.

Just want to say your sig is awesome! I love those commercials.

[DuckIII]

All I'm doing is discussing a weakness in his game. I'm not talking at all about who I prefer. Rajon Rondo is an elite point guard and one of the best set-up men in the NBA, and I wouldn't trade Derrick Rose for him.

But he's not very good at it. And I'd like to see him get better at it. Which isn't the same thing as saying I want him to morph into Andre Miller and start walking the ball up the court for a set-shot.

Just want to say your sig is awesome! I love those commercials.

"Super-creepy Rob Lowe" is the best though.

[madvillian]

Rose put on a clinic before he left in the 3rd. He got a wide open shot for himself or a team mate 5 possessions in a row and Chicago converted on 4 of them, including the 4 point Hinrich play.

[mj234eva]

Through 2 games played.

Per 36 & Pace adjusted:

25.9 PPG - 18.1 FGA
47.8% FG% - 64.3% 2P%, 22.2% 3P%
8.6 FTA - 81.8% FT%
7.1 AST - 3.9 TOV
5.5 REB
1.6 STL

52.2% eFG%
59.3% TS%
26.4 PER
47.8% FTr
39.1% 3PAr

32.8 USG%
36.6 AST%
15.2 TOV%

[mj234eva]

If Derrick had started out the gate sucking, this thread would be 20+ pages by now.

[2Chainz]

Rose put on a clinic before he left in the 3rd. He got a wide open shot for himself or a team mate 5 possessions in a row and Chicago converted on 4 of them, including the 4 point Hinrich play.

The crazy thing is you could see the burst wasn't there he did all of this from outside of the painted area.