Should GarPax be taken to task for not making a move during trading season?

[SpinninHouse]

People fail to realize that if Thibs were in charge of personnel we would have team full of Mike James/Brewers/Bogans/Hinrichs.

If Thibs were GM he'd max out Lu Deng, Taj, Hinrich, Jo, and Jimmy. Plus his dream acquisition is probably Tony Allen because he plays D. Thibs once said you "don't win a championship with out Lu" even though Lu's never won a championship lol.

[jumpmanjay]

People fail to realize that if Thibs were in charge of personnel we would have team full of Mike James/Brewers/Bogans/Hinrichs.

If Thibs were GM he'd max out Lu Deng, Taj, Hinrich, Jo, and Jimmy. Plus his dream acquisition is probably Tony Allen because he plays D. Thibs once said you "don't win a championship with out Lu" even though Lu's never won a championship lol.

He said you "don't win a championship without a guy like Lu."

[dougthonus]

“Initially, the last procedure he had on the meniscus, we knew this was a possibility,” Thibodeau said. “And so unfortunately it didn’t take and now they have to go back in and take care of it.”

This is a quote that makes me believe that the FO needs to be taken to task for not making sure they had a contingency plan in place. If this was already out there prior to the season, then why didn't you go after the reliable PG's that became available at the trade deadline. It was clear even before DRose went down that this team needed more options and that you needed a more reliable PG option other than Kirk. I would assume that Thibs fought for his guy Kirk but it was GarPax who ultimately is responsible for the roster. This is just one more move or non-move this FO has screwed. I go all the way back to not trading the no.7 pick and Donyell Marshall for a chance to draft Wade and the penultimate mistake of trading Aldridge for Tyrus. I won't even think about the rumored Gasol for Deng 3 years ago when Pau was a bit younger and a lot more athletic. I'd rather keep Thibs going forward and move out the FO if change is needed.

Any contingency plan which would have been meaningful would have lowered their odds of winning if Rose stayed healthy. You only have so much talent on the roster and so many resources to spend.

In order for the Bulls to have any shot at winning at all, they had to hope Rose would stay healthy at PG and make all the other positions as strong as possible.

They're already weak on the wing as it is, if they had spent even more resources on a backup point guard it would have been worse.

Overall, if you go up and down the moves Gar/Pax have made over their tenure they stack up really, really well against other franchises, most of the things people complain about are things that weren't done that they assume could have been done without any real evidence that this is the case (point in fact two of your three complaints fall in this category, one of which was explicitly denied by the Toronto front office).

They had made enough moves to have the Bulls be title contenders for the past five seasons if Rose had stayed healthy. Hard to blame them for Rose getting injured repeatedly.

[Red Larrivee]

During the Paxson era, the Bulls have never been a team that looks to improve by making trades for veteran players. They make moves for draft picks and sign free agents.

Rose-Draft Pick
Butler-Draft Pick
Dunleavy-FA signing
Gasol-FA signing
Noah-Draft Pick

Gibson-Draft Pick
Mirotic-Draft Pick
Brooks-FA signing
Snell-Draft Pick
McDermott-Draft Pick
Hinrich-FA signing (originally draft pick)
Bairstow-Draft Pick
Mohammed-FA signing
Moore-FA signing

The next time the Bulls make a trade to acquire a proven talent to build with, it will be the first.

This is true, and the most annoying quality about this FO.

I am confused by this logic, shared by others, not just you, that you don't want a good team, you want the pieces acquired a certain way. Personally I can't imagine caring how it is done. And in fact depending on trades (versus FA and drafting) is not the best way to build a contender.

They build a good team by doing what they are good at. How the bleep is that annoying?

Nothing is wrong with it, provided it's working. In every build the Bulls do they're always missing a key piece that needed to be acquired by trade, but they always whiffed. The team never shows a strong sense of improving via trades.

If they have to dump salary, well...say no more.

[transplant]

Please allow me the privilege of piling on.

No, GarPax shouldn't be taken to task for failing to make a move.

Without a healthy DRose, the Bulls were going nowhere. If you didn't see this, you weren't paying attention. The very thought that management could obtain a full or nearly full Rose replacement with their disposable assets is kinda silly.

[kyrv]

This is true, and the most annoying quality about this FO.

I am confused by this logic, shared by others, not just you, that you don't want a good team, you want the pieces acquired a certain way. Personally I can't imagine caring how it is done. And in fact depending on trades (versus FA and drafting) is not the best way to build a contender.

They build a good team by doing what they are good at. How the bleep is that annoying?

Nothing is wrong with it, provided it's working. In every build the Bulls do they're always missing a key piece that needed to be acquired by trade, but they always whiffed. The team never shows a strong sense of improving via trades.

If they have to dump salary, well...say no more.

The issue has been injuries, including Rose being banged up when they did reach the ECF.

They haven't been missing key pieces really. Every team has flaws, which is different from missing key pieces.

[EastBayFJ]

Yes they should have been thrashed with a feather . or perhaps tarred and then feathered

They did have contingency plans in place anyway . His name was Kirk

[Red Larrivee]

The issue has been injuries, including Rose being banged up when they did reach the ECF.

They haven't been missing key pieces really. Every team has flaws, which is different from missing key pieces.

I'm not saying they're to blame for the Bulls not winning championships. As you said, they haven't had a healthy Derrick Rose in the postseason since 2011. I'm questioning why they're not good at using the trade market to improve the team with proven talent.

These are the notable trades of the Paxson Era (that aren't draft day related):

-Re-signed center Eddy Curry and traded him along with forward Antonio Davis to the New York Knicks for guard Jermaine Jackson, forwards Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney, a 2006 first-round pick, second-round picks in 2007 and 2009 and a conditional right to swap 2007 first-round picks.

-Traded forward Tyson Chandler to the New Orleans Hornets for guard JR Smith and forward PJ Brown.

-Traded forwards Joe Smith and Ben Wallace and a 2009 second-round pick to the Cleveland Cavaliers and forward Adrian Griffin to the Seattle SuperSonics for guards Larry Hughes and Shannon Brown and forwards Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons.

-Traded forwards Drew Gooden, Andres Nocioni, Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin to the Sacramento Kings for center Brad Miller and guard John Salmons.

-Traded guard Kirk Hinrich, the draft rights to forward Kevin Seraphin and cash to the Washington Wizards for the draft rights to forward Vladimir Veremeenko.

-Traded forward Luol Deng to the Cleveland Cavaliers for center Andrew Bynum, three future draft picks and the right to swap 2015 first-round picks with the Cavaliers.

---

How many of these deals were an attempt at improving the team with proven talent rather than dumping salary or trying to get shorter contracts? The Salmons/Miller deal is the closest resemblance, but people forget that the primary goal of that deal was to get the shorter contracts of Salmons and Miller for the summer of 2010, while dumping the albatross deal of Nocioni.

Aside from that, none of those deals were attempts at improving the team with veteran talent. In 12 years on the job, Paxson hasn't shown that ability and it's extremely concerning.

[musiqsoulchild]

During the Paxson era, the Bulls have never been a team that looks to improve by making trades for veteran players. They make moves for draft picks and sign free agents.

Rose-Draft Pick
Butler-Draft Pick
Dunleavy-FA signing
Gasol-FA signing
Noah-Draft Pick

Gibson-Draft Pick
Mirotic-Draft Pick
Brooks-FA signing
Snell-Draft Pick
McDermott-Draft Pick
Hinrich-FA signing (originally draft pick)
Bairstow-Draft Pick
Mohammed-FA signing
Moore-FA signing

The next time the Bulls make a trade to acquire a proven talent to build with, it will be the first.

Red, how many of those draft picks are the RESULT of trades?

[Red Larrivee]

Red, how many of those draft picks are the RESULT of trades?

You're missing the point. The Bulls will make trades to get draft picks to select players they really like. That's fine. I'm not discussing that, nor am I analyzing their ability to dump salary. The Bulls are **** royalty at dumping salary.

The Bulls do not make trades for proven talent that they will build their team with. That's the conversation, and the OP is asking if they should be taken to task for not acquiring that type of talent during the season for the 12th consecutive year.

Like I said, if the strategy was working continuously and filling holes, then I guess it wouldn't be a big deal. Kind of like how the Green Bay Packers only build their teams with draft picks and maybe a few guys here and there from free agency. But there have been multiple times when the Bulls needed to make a trade for a proven talent to get better and they didn't.

Remember the 20/10 low-post scorer that was much discussed from 2005-2007? What about the scoring SG way before Jimmy Butler blew up? You can probably add the a wing upgrade from this year to that list too. Whatever it is, they continuously show that they can't fill that hole with a proven talent through trade.

[Bulls_Fan]

As Red pointed out, the team doesn't make trades to better the team. THe Salmons-Miller trade was the BUlls getting lucky as the result of salary dumping.
We have a giant hole on the wing. At one point we were penciling Carmelo on the wing and now we are pining for Dunleavy to come back as the missing link to our title.

[Axl Rose]

I will be honest, I have my issues with Thibs but his system is effective and it works, it allows us to still make the playoffs and still be competitive without Rose. Instead of losing what is considered ONE OF the best Coaches in the NBA...I would Blow It Up! No NOT THE TEAM, THE FRONT OFFICE! Gar and Paxson should GO and Thibs should be given MORE POWER to not only coach but also bringing in the players HE NEED to make this thing work. The Players seem to LOVE Thibs but the Front Office probably don't like him because THEY CAN'T CONTROL HIM! Didn't Paxson have issues and Choke Vinny Del Negro as well? OK well to me maybe that is the guy that needs to GO instead of changing coaches YET AGAIN! How can you get rid of or let a coach walk that wins despite the franchise player not being on the Court most of the time he been here.

So I say DUMP Gar Foreman and John Paxson, and GIVE THIBS MORE POWER! Thibs also is liked and respected around the NBA by PLAYERS and Fellow Coaches. Thibs can probably land a big time free agent before Gar Foreman and Paxson who failed at doing so multiple times now. Coach Popovich recently backing Thibs that is a STRONG ENDORSEMENT from the Best Coach in Basketball Right Now!

This damn Fred Hoiberg HYPE is a JOKE to me, do people just have a weird MAN CRUSH on this guy. Why Him? Hire Him Based on WHAT EXACTLY?

im not a paxgar supporter but im not giving thibs control so he can bring in Kendrick Perkins, Mike James, John Lucas and resign Hinrich to a lifetime contract

[sicko]

I will be honest, I have my issues with Thibs but his system is effective and it works, it allows us to still make the playoffs and still be competitive without Rose. Instead of losing what is considered ONE OF the best Coaches in the NBA...I would Blow It Up! No NOT THE TEAM, THE FRONT OFFICE! Gar and Paxson should GO and Thibs should be given MORE POWER to not only coach but also bringing in the players HE NEED to make this thing work. The Players seem to LOVE Thibs but the Front Office probably don't like him because THEY CAN'T CONTROL HIM! Didn't Paxson have issues and Choke Vinny Del Negro as well? OK well to me maybe that is the guy that needs to GO instead of changing coaches YET AGAIN! How can you get rid of or let a coach walk that wins despite the franchise player not being on the Court most of the time he been here.

So I say DUMP Gar Foreman and John Paxson, and GIVE THIBS MORE POWER! Thibs also is liked and respected around the NBA by PLAYERS and Fellow Coaches. Thibs can probably land a big time free agent before Gar Foreman and Paxson who failed at doing so multiple times now. Coach Popovich recently backing Thibs that is a STRONG ENDORSEMENT from the Best Coach in Basketball Right Now!

This damn Fred Hoiberg HYPE is a JOKE to me, do people just have a weird MAN CRUSH on this guy. Why Him? Hire Him Based on WHAT EXACTLY?

im not a paxgar supporter but im not giving thibs control so he can bring in Kendrick Perkins, Mike James, John Lucas and resign Hinrich to a lifetime contract

Funny thing is, Those sound like Gar Foreman and John Paxson moves to be honest

Bulls Organization IN GENERAL seem to be infatuated with Hinrich. Again Gar and Pax draft well I give them that but other than that...WHAT ELSE? They finally landed a good Free Agent in Gasol I guess? Trade deadline they never make any moves. Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA, I would rather keep him than a Front Office that really haven't done anything or won anything...JUST SAYING! If you let Thibs walk...Gar and Pax should go as well!

[Axl Rose]

I will be honest, I have my issues with Thibs but his system is effective and it works, it allows us to still make the playoffs and still be competitive without Rose. Instead of losing what is considered ONE OF the best Coaches in the NBA...I would Blow It Up! No NOT THE TEAM, THE FRONT OFFICE! Gar and Paxson should GO and Thibs should be given MORE POWER to not only coach but also bringing in the players HE NEED to make this thing work. The Players seem to LOVE Thibs but the Front Office probably don't like him because THEY CAN'T CONTROL HIM! Didn't Paxson have issues and Choke Vinny Del Negro as well? OK well to me maybe that is the guy that needs to GO instead of changing coaches YET AGAIN! How can you get rid of or let a coach walk that wins despite the franchise player not being on the Court most of the time he been here.

So I say DUMP Gar Foreman and John Paxson, and GIVE THIBS MORE POWER! Thibs also is liked and respected around the NBA by PLAYERS and Fellow Coaches. Thibs can probably land a big time free agent before Gar Foreman and Paxson who failed at doing so multiple times now. Coach Popovich recently backing Thibs that is a STRONG ENDORSEMENT from the Best Coach in Basketball Right Now!

This damn Fred Hoiberg HYPE is a JOKE to me, do people just have a weird MAN CRUSH on this guy. Why Him? Hire Him Based on WHAT EXACTLY?

im not a paxgar supporter but im not giving thibs control so he can bring in Kendrick Perkins, Mike James, John Lucas and resign Hinrich to a lifetime contract

Funny thing is, Those sound like Gar Foreman and John Paxson moves to be honest

Bulls Organization IN GENERAL seem to be infatuated with Hinrich. Again Gar and Pax draft well I give them that but other than that...WHAT ELSE? They finally landed a good Free Agent in Gasol I guess? Trade deadline they never make any moves. Thibs is one of the best coaches in the NBA, I would rather keep him than a Front Office that really haven't done anything or won anything...JUST SAYING! If you let Thibs walk...Gar and Pax should go as well!

like i said im not a supporter of the FO either...they could go too but Jerry isn't gonna fire them

hes loyal to a fault

[samwana]

Yes they should have been thrashed with a feather . or perhaps tarred and then feathered

They did have contingency plans in place anyway . His name was Kirk

Did you forget the green font???

I'm sorry but having Kirk is not a contingency plan. Overpaying the man for a third time in a row is a god awful and lazy signing.

[BoocheeMan1117]

Taj Gibson should not be on this roster, when Mirotic is ten times the player.

[Flopper]

Taj Gibson should not be on this roster, when Mirotic is ten times the player.

This is hilarious. Do you always make sweeping generalizations about players based on a single game?

[transplant]

Taj Gibson should not be on this roster, when Mirotic is ten times the player.

This is hilarious. Do you always make sweeping generalizations about players based on a single game?

Yes, I believe he does.

[BoocheeMan1117]

Taj Gibson should not be on this roster, when Mirotic is ten times the player.

This is hilarious. Do you always make sweeping generalizations about players based on a single game?

Taj has a lower ceiling than Niko, but a higher floor

[RememberLu]

Does anyone else think our playing style contributed a bit to our injury woes?

It's a lot of bull in china shop type play, our guards have to barrel at the rim and our bigs lack finesse and have to win by hustle and grit

If we had a team full of good jump shooters its hard to believe we'd have these many injuries. Or am I just crazy