Rose, Butler - the best player

[Rerisen]

Derrick Rose, the guy who is a 9 PER and a 40% TS% player, is supposedly our best player?

If so, we're ****.

Pfft PER.

You know who has the highest PER on the team, Kirk Hinrich!

If Kirk Hinrich is our best player, we're ****!

Kirk has more good game than Rose this years.

Kirk > Rose

Definitely. Sell high imo.

[bledredwine]

Jimmy is amazing and I've been a homer from day one of both players, but Rose at his best brings the entire team to another level whereas Jimmy can ball out and we still get outplayed. Jimmy is the better player, but Rose's best is more important and frankly better than Jimmy's.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Derrick Rose, the guy who is a 9 PER and a 40% TS% player, is supposedly our best player?

If so, we're ****.

Well actually his per is at 11 and 43% TS , hopefully he can get that number to 16 by all star break and keep improving on it.

It will be really sad/bad if it takes till the all-star break for Derrick to play consistently well. You would like to see Derrick do it at some point in December.

If you told me Rose would play consistently well, but I'd have to wait until the All Star break, I'd take it. Because I'm not sure 'consistently well' is in the cards for him.

[MrSparkle]

At this point, Rose's advanced metrics are on par with Jimmer Fredette's while Jimmy's are all-star caliber.

The talent's there but the comparison is a joke at this point. Consistency is everything. Jimmy has brought 2-way all-star production to the table every night of the week since last year. Derrick has a killer offensive game 1 in 5 games, and unfortunately is very prone to missing games (which results in +0.0 win share).

Still, Rose has the MVP legacy and the high ceiling, the marketability. Sure, I think he's capable of making a big splash at points during the season, but if I'm having a serious debate about "which player is better", it's almost like asking: "Embiid or Okafor?"

Rose/Jimmy aren't comparable. Best thing that'll happen: Rose breaks his declining projection and works his way back into being a healthy consistent role-player, kind of like Grant Hill towards the end of his career, in Phoenix.

But I just can't see him playing MVP defense and offense for more than 20 games straight, and not getting hurt.

Because our players are trained to revolve around Rose so much, and because our backup PGs are so below-average... There's this reality that the team is indeed greatly affected by Rose's presence. I wouldn't say Rose is our "most valuable player", in a good way.

[chrispatrick]

Jimmy is amazing and I've been a homer from day one of both players, but Rose at his best brings the entire team to another level whereas Jimmy can ball out and we still get outplayed. Jimmy is the better player, but Rose's best is more important and frankly better than Jimmy's.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Couldn't disagree with this more with respect to Rose's best these days. It's just not that good, and these days people get excited when he has a game featuring even mediocreish efficiency. Rose is not that player anymore and his best games often feature middling efficiency. The reason it may seem like we win more often when rose plays a good game (an infrequent occurrence) is because he has Jimmy next to him bringing something to the table every single night. Jimmy certainly can't count on rose to do the same when Jimmy has a good night.

If one is making the argument that rose's best is better than jimmy's, then his lows must be impossibly awful to have accumulated the stats he has the last two seasons. Off stat things like defense and drawing defensive attention are in jimmys favor as well.

[BobbyBuckets]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

[MrSparkle]

Rose will be a very important piece in making a deep playoff run, but you basically plan on him being the x-factor. You don't wager your odds on an x-factor, you take it into consideration for making a safe bet even safer.

Between Pau and Jimmy, Taj and Noah, the potential rise or fall of Niko, the many assets (picks, Doug, expiring contracts, rotation player contracts), Cavs' health vulnerability, we have enough pieces to contend if a trade is made to address the log-jams and positions of concern, regardless of Rose's wild low-to-high/unpredictable production. That's the big story. Standing pat, I don't think there's any way this team can possibly contend unless Niko/Snell/Doug make unrealistic improvements all across the board (shooting percentage, defense, drawing fouls).

You can hope for Rose playing some fine basketball come spring-time, but I guarantee there's simply not enough in his tank to lead this aging Bulls roster in the deep-playoffs, past any juggernaut teams. You can see the way he plays; the second he turns up that gear, to slash into the rim or play with harder cuts, he puts his ankles and knees at major risk. He's not a pure shooter, so he won't win you 4-out-of-7 games unless he's scoring in the paint too. What he can do is put a damn fine Bulls team over-the-edge. If we have better, prime veteran 2-way options at backup PG and starting SF, then we become a threat to Cleveland.

So it's just gonna be a tough trade deadline for GarPax; they have some risky decisions to make. Stand pat, and you essentially whimper to another playoff exit and plan for making a free agency splash in 2017, which is actually the same strategy Pax started 12 years ago. Get a Plan B team and wait 2 years for the cap-room to add the missing piece. Create a promising team with a promising future that can't ever make the Finals. By the time some combination of our mid-ceiling players (Niko, Doug, Snell, Portis) becomes a consistent force, Noah, Pau, Dunleavy and possibly Rose will be below-tier or retired players.

We have a LOT of trade assets that actually impact the on-court production very little:

Niko -- Promising player who we plan on keeping and building around, but truth is you don't nuke the PF position if you lose him. Taj is still a capable starter.

Doug -- I don't know. Hard to gauge this guy's league value. Is he in Fredette zone, or Redick? My opinion is that because Pau and Niko are the best PF/C scorers we can throw out there, and our starting PG is a defensively inconsistent (Rose), Doug is basically thrown into one of the worst possible situations. I can see he can score more creatively than Korver, but we also see his destructive defense if there aren't skilled defensive teammates to compensate. There's a place for him in the league, but the Bulls are a rough spot. He could have trade value.

Portis, Dunleavy, Sac. 1st, Chi. 1st -- Exactly zero production so far this season. These are good trade assets (MDJ's contract is reasonable, for a team wanting a smart vet. SF).

They wagered that Niko, Snell and Doug would develop as fast as Barnes, Dray Green and Klay ... or Leonard, Danny Green... But both the old and young Warriors/Spurs players were better.

If you want to contend, you typically keep your best WIN-NOW players. Here'd be my order:

Jimmy
Pau
Rose
Niko
Noah
Taj

The rest of the pecking order is more convoluted and situational. If you can add a major star talent via consolidation trade without losing more than 1 of the above guys, ideally none of them... Then you're looking at a Detroit (Rasheed), Lakers (Pau) kind of a situation.

[pb-ceo]

Jimmy is amazing and I've been a homer from day one of both players, but Rose at his best brings the entire team to another level whereas Jimmy can ball out and we still get outplayed. Jimmy is the better player, but Rose's best is more important and frankly better than Jimmy's.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

problem is his best was 5 years ago.

[pb-ceo]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

lol. it's obvious the team has rallied around jimmy as the leader. it's hard to win games watching from the luxury suites.

[bullsRlife]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

I agree that Rose is a cold blooded killer, but Jimmy was dead tired in the 4th against the Dubs. He was putting in so much effort on both sides of the ball.

[BR0D1E86]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

Does he text them that from home, or do they find the sound of his shot bouncing off the rim soothing?

Here's a fact: Derrick Rose is a bad basketball player right now. Based on performance he shouldn't be in the rotation.

[Googjob]

This isn't even close. Butler is much better. He's a complete 2-way player. Rose hasn't been good in years. He's one of the worst starting PGs in the NBA.

[kulaz3000]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

I agree that Rose is a cold blooded killer, but Jimmy was dead tired in the 4th against the Dubs. He was putting in so much effort on both sides of the ball.

The thing is Derrick used to do that game in and game out, as in carrying the load and running on fumes in the fourth and still getting us wins. In his MVP season, it was practically a one-man show, not to discount the contribution from the rest of the team, but most of the games were on Derrick to muster up the energy to finish games for us even when he was exhausted. Those days seems so long ago, and yet I feel foolish still having belief that Derrick can still be partially that type of player again.

[bullsRlife]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

I agree that Rose is a cold blooded killer, but Jimmy was dead tired in the 4th against the Dubs. He was putting in so much effort on both sides of the ball.

The thing is Derrick used to do that game in and game out, as in carrying the load and running on fumes in the fourth and still getting us wins. In his MVP season, it was practically a one-man show, not to discount the contribution from the rest of the team, but most of the games were on Derrick to muster up the energy to finish games for us even when he was exhausted. Those days seems so long ago, and yet I feel foolish still having belief that Derrick can still be partially that type of player again.

I still remember thinking back like, "how the hell does this extremely athletic guy keep this intensity up, and he's not even breathing hard....". Rose was a freak of nature. One of Derrick's best attributes was his stamina. Now it seems like every time he's starting to get his wind back, there's another setback.

How quickly they forget.

On the flip side, you can make an argument that Rose didn't have to put in as much effort on the defensive side, because Noah and Taj were cleaning up any defensive mistakes by our wings. Jimmy is our Deng, except he has to put in major work on offense as well.

[kyrv]

Jimmy is a budding superstar with a great Ginobli storyline going for him. but...

Rose is a big-time player. He's our ice-blooded closer. When you need those plays down the stretch and someone to step up (win or lose), Rose is there. It was evident in the 4th against GSW. Jimmy kept us in the game the whole way, but when things tightened up, so did our players. Derrick is that security blanket that reminds our guys that everything is going to be fine.

Does he text them that from home, or do they find the sound of his shot bouncing off the rim soothing?

Here's a fact: Derrick Rose is a bad basketball player right now. Based on performance he shouldn't be in the rotation.

Was he serious?

Who is better today, Rose, The Jimmer, or TMac? You decide!

[kodo]

Not exactly on topic, but I like Jimmy's leadership here.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14211225/jimmy-butler-challenges-chicago-bulls-effort-says-team-bring-fight-every-game

"I don't think we bring that fight every single night," Butler told reporters after Monday's practice. "I think we're starting to get back to that, but early on we weren't the hardest-playing team every night. We always need to and have to be the hardest-playing team."

"I just think that at times we take for granted how talented we are as a whole and with all the guys upon this roster," he said. "We think we can come out and just go through the motions at the beginning of a game, dig ourselves a little hole, and think we can just pick it up at any point and time, and it just doesn't work like that."

"We can't blame losses on we didn't have this guy," Butler said.

[Rerisen]

Not exactly on topic, but I like Jimmy's leadership here.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14211225/jimmy-butler-challenges-chicago-bulls-effort-says-team-bring-fight-every-game

"I don't think we bring that fight every single night," Butler told reporters after Monday's practice. "I think we're starting to get back to that, but early on we weren't the hardest-playing team every night. We always need to and have to be the hardest-playing team."

"I just think that at times we take for granted how talented we are as a whole and with all the guys upon this roster," he said. "We think we can come out and just go through the motions at the beginning of a game, dig ourselves a little hole, and think we can just pick it up at any point and time, and it just doesn't work like that."

"We can't blame losses on we didn't have this guy," Butler said.

Hell yeah we do. Jimmy needs to come offer therapy to the fanbase, who uses the same excuses.

[kyrv]

Not exactly on topic, but I like Jimmy's leadership here.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14211225/jimmy-butler-challenges-chicago-bulls-effort-says-team-bring-fight-every-game

"I don't think we bring that fight every single night," Butler told reporters after Monday's practice. "I think we're starting to get back to that, but early on we weren't the hardest-playing team every night. We always need to and have to be the hardest-playing team."

"I just think that at times we take for granted how talented we are as a whole and with all the guys upon this roster," he said. "We think we can come out and just go through the motions at the beginning of a game, dig ourselves a little hole, and think we can just pick it up at any point and time, and it just doesn't work like that."

"We can't blame losses on we didn't have this guy," Butler said.

Jimmy. Shots fired.

[reggieandtfe]

ESPN Released the Real Plus-Minus Statistics

DRose sandwiched between the illustrious Jerian Grant and Rodney Stockey with a -3.11 for 69th out of 82 point guards.

Jimmy Buckets at a fantastic +4.71 almost doubling up the next Shooting guard and 9th in the NBA.

[TheStig]

This isn't a debate.

Butler is the best player by far.

Rose might not be a top 5 player on the team.

Rose is still the best player on the team. Where rose goes, bulls goes.

Rose might be the most important player but he isn't the best. Jimmy is the best. I don't know how a part time player could be the best player.