Is Jimmy becoming kind of underrated around here?

[AirP.]

A lot of JImmy's advantage is his quickness coupled with his strength, the strongest part of his game is getting to the line. If he loses some of that quickness he diminishes as a player. He's not a great shooter, not sure I agree with your easement.

I don't see him relying on quickness all that much, I see him relying on strength, skill and keeping himself under control. He can attack the hoop quickly but most of the time he seems to utilize strength more(absorbing contact which gets him to the line). It's really interesting that we don't see more strong players doing that.

Like this 42 point performance vs Toronto, he could still score the same way at age 33-34, he didn't utilize really any athletic advantage, it was all skill and strength, he turns into guys when attacking the basket to draw the foul and take away their chance to cleanly challenge the shot. His particular game(not because of less mileage) will translate well in his 30s while say someone like D.Rose will drop off greatly when his athleticism drops(which we've also seen with the surgeries). Butler could opt out with his player option(4th year) and get another huge contract and still produce the whole contract.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYANNhwbkBA[/youtube]

[High level]

Much like Taj... Yes

No. If anything Taj is overrated around here.

Taj is by far, I mean from here to the moon type of far, the most overvalued athlete on this board.

In regards to Jimmy, I think the draft day stuff showed that Jimmy Butler is overvalued by myself and 99% of this board.

Jimmy is valued just right to me. Not overvalued or undervalued but Taj really blew me last year. Last year was his year to show that he was more than a energy scrappy bench big which most ppl around here make him out to be much more than that. He had the starting job for most of last year and he was just plain average. Never had a hot stretch or made any significant noise. It was games when we didn't have Niko butler pau Noah or Rose and taj still never really stepped up. He was a bust in his prime and he's a bust now. Just a flat out average unpolished big with low trade value.

[mj234eva]

Saw this on Twitter the other day. In 11 games without Derrick last season Butler put up 25pts 7rebs 7ast and the Bulls went 9-2. Jimmy is a top 15 player easily and those guys are hard to come by.

They left out who the Bulls beat, in those games.

It was 27.7 points, 7 Rebs, 7 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.9 blocks. He shot 51% from the field, 38% from 3. 0.605 TS %, 9 FTA per game.

And they played 11 games- 6 of which were against playoff teams. Fairly representative.

Actually, 5 games against playoff teams. They beat the Raptors twice, and the Pacers once (by a combined 6 points). Both those teams they also beat with Derrick in the lineup.

[cmd1985]

A lot of JImmy's advantage is his quickness coupled with his strength, the strongest part of his game is getting to the line. If he loses some of that quickness he diminishes as a player. He's not a great shooter, not sure I agree with your easement.

I don't see him relying on quickness all that much, I see him relying on strength, skill and keeping himself under control. He can attack the hoop quickly but most of the time he seems to utilize strength more(absorbing contact which gets him to the line). It's really interesting that we don't see more strong players doing that.

Like this 42 point performance vs Toronto, he could still score the same way at age 33-34, he didn't utilize really any athletic advantage, it was all skill and strength, he turns into guys when attacking the basket to draw the foul and take away their chance to cleanly challenge the shot. His particular game(not because of less mileage) will translate well in his 30s while say someone like D.Rose will drop off greatly when his athleticism drops(which we've also seen with the surgeries). Butler could opt out with his player option(4th year) and get another huge contract and still produce the whole contract.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYANNhwbkBA[/youtube]

That's not just all skill and strength like I said a big part of it is his quickness and his ability to get a shoulder pass guys nothing really in that highlight disproved what I was saying.

[DuckIII]

he will always be looked at by many here as the guy who ran the home town kid out of town. as such he will never get his due.

I don't know if I'd say many. We certainly have a few of those. I think, despite some unfortunate behaviour from Jimmy last year, he's largely appreciated and respected by Bulls fans as to both his work ethic and quality as a player.

Nonetheless a number of us, me included, think the right thing to do is to trade him, and trade him soon. Which is strategic, and shouldn't be confused with disapproval of Jimmy.

Don't think I've agreed with you more during my years here than over the last week or two. Keep preaching.

Might be because I think a lot of people perceive me as being a FO fanboy, when its more that I just typically happen to agree with their strategies. This summer, I don't. I think they are making a costly mistake, and one that might ripple forward for years before we end up right back where a lot of people don't want to be: rebuilding.

I agree with what I agree with, and disagree with what I disagree with. Its based on objective analysis. And while I understand the counterpoint, I objectively believe our FO is screwing up.

[AirP.]

That's not just all skill and strength like I said a big part of it is his quickness and his ability to get a shoulder pass guys nothing really in that highlight disproved what I was saying.

He's not using any elite athleticism to do any of that, that's basically an old man's game using their strength and savvy to score.

The only thing we disagreed with is why he'll be solid in his 30s, you said not much mileage, I said because his game translates. People seem to forget that these basketball players are playing a ton of basketball before joining the NBA but for some reason that doesn't count towards their "mileage".

[NDave79]

I personally think Jimmy is going to age pretty nicely. Yes, he is currently a great athlete and that benefits him a ton, but a lot of his scoring ability is based on strength and footwork and he plays with a fairly methodical pace when he is creating with the ball.

Not to compare him to Jordan (the #1 rule of NBA player comparisons is don't compare anybody to Jordan), but as we all know Jordan's game completely evolved from a player that attacked the basket and tried to dunk on people, to a lethal mid-range game and then adding in a lethal post game for the last three peat. Of course Jordan came in the league and averaged 28 a game and Jimmy could barely get on the floor as a rookie so this is not an apples to apples comparison, but I think Jimmy has enough size and strength with a good enough foundation of footwork and savvy to be able to play at a high level even when he slows down some. Basically, I think he has the natural physical tools and work ethic to evolve his game a little like Jordan did. If he keeps improving his skills (and their is no reason to think he won't), I could see him looking a lot like Paul Pierce as he starts to lose some of his athletic ability.

Now all that being said in this post and my previous posts in this thread, I would trade him for the right offer and can see how trading him soon could have a huge benefit.

However, I would like to see what we have in our young guys until at least next trade deadline before pulling the plug on this team. I want to see what Jimmy looks like with another off season to hone his game and as the undisputed number one option and leader.

We have number of young guys who could be primed to elevate their games in a big way.

3rd year guys - Niko and Doug
2nd year guys - Bobby, Jerian Grant, Felicio
rookie - Denzel (should be about as NBA ready as it gets, at least on the offensive end).

(and I'm also curious to see Dinwiddie and the Zipser)

With the subtraction of Rose and Gasol, I think the younger scorers might feel more relaxed and comfortable trying to play to the strengths of their games. We should see a huge improvement in the locker room chemistry creating more positive energy and just making it fun again for the players.

I think Hoiberg will be much more effective coaching this group without needing to massage the egos of Rose, Gasol and Noah. I think Butler was frustrated last year because he had committed so much to maximize what he could do to help the Bulls win and Hoiberg wasn't able to hold these vets accountable.

With Jimmy as the clear cut leader, he is going to be able to push these young guys in a way he couldn't when Rose and Gasol were still on the team doing their own thing.

The alpha truly sets the tone and mentality of a team. Thibs was pretty much the alpha when he was the coach. Last year was confusing and Jimmy wasn't going to be able to be the true alpha and get his way with Rose, Gasol and Noah. People just naturally feel less accountable if part of their group (could be a class room, or a job or a sports team) is held to a different standard. Now that this is 100% Jimmy's team he will be able to hold his teammates accountable in way he couldn't with last years team.

It's like your in training camp and you see Jimmy giving his all, but then you see Rose and Gasol maybe going at like 75% and then it's a lot easier to take it a little easier when you are running suicides. Hoiberg is like "common guys, lets pick up the pace" and maybe they do a little, but it's still obvious Jimmy is going a lot harder. Jimmy is frustrated. Hoiberg isn't sure how to get these long tenured vets to do exactly what he wants them to do; he can't just fire them like a manager at work could.

So the season turns in to a big mess with a horrible locker room chemistry. Jimmy says stuff he probably regrets, but if you are a true competitor, you are just not going to accept your teammates hurting your team.

Long story short. I love Jimmy and think he is going to be an incredible leader to these young guys. I want to see what this team and these young players look like in this new culture before dropping an atomic bomb on the team.

[Proven_Winner]

I can't fathom how anyone thinks jimmy is underrated unless you don't like hearing criticism of him. If anything jimmy gets a bit overrated by some here and on other sites. People always trying to find a way to compare him to LEGENDS when he doesn't have their skills, talents, or accolades.

[Paxson43]

Here's Doug McDermott vs the same Raptors...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz4IBQrt7aY[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU_l3W3Swdo[/youtube]

[meekrab]

More like OVERRATED. Can't even lead this team to a playoffs with a healthy Rose.

When has he had a healthy Rose? The guy we had last season jacking 15 shots a game on .450 TS% while seeing out of one eyeball was "healthy Rose"?

[sco]

I like Jimmy.

Offensively, I see him behind Curry, Lebron, Durant, Westbrook and Harden, (maybe Cousins too)...he's on par with next group.

Defensively, I see him behind Leonard, but on par with anyone else.

On this board, we tend to overweight offensive value, but that's the NBA sentiment.

[PaKii94]

Jimmy is 2nd tier, so the only trade that improves Chicago is for a 1st tier player like Durant/Curry or for a young player / pick that can turn into a 1st tier player. So incredibly unlikely to happen.

There are some criticisms for Butler that are valid. In terms of scoring, he didn't improve much from last year and it's easy to argue he regressed a bit from a team standpoint.

2015: 20.0 ppg on 58.3% TS, 62% assisted
2016: 20.9 ppg on 56.2% TS, 47% assisted

Jimmy handled the ball and created much more this year, but it didn't lead to better or more scoring. Compared to last year he scored about the same volume but needed more possessions.

He did have some huge games for us by virtue of using up a ton of possessions, but that can happen with any talented guard. Kemba Walker in a similar situation posted as many 36+ point games as Jimmy (1 more actually). There's a huge difference between posting a 40 point game while still using your normal # of possessions and not disrupting the team, and just posting 40 by just taking every shot of the 2nd half and ignoring the rest of the team.

Sometimes, it's better to win as a team and lose as a team, versus squeaking out 1 regular season win and publically showing you have no trust in your teammates.

Overall the mental & leadership issues are typical for a highly talented young gun. Kobe-ish. In the context of a team trying to compete with an already established core of Rose/Pau/Noah, it was kind of toxic.

In the context of a rebuilding team, these issues are ignorable and actually should be expected. I'm not a fan of the Rose trade at all, but our FO did take the team on a path that's better for Butler in every way. Instead of being paired with another hero-ball guy in Rose, Jimmy will now be paired with a pass first, hustle guy in Grant or a pass first, floor spacing shooter in Valentine, or a pass-first PG in Dinwiddie. The backcourt dynamic has changed 180 for Jimmy.

It's been a painful summer, but next year should be amazing for Butler.

Those numbers include his post injury numbers which was pretty bad and did dampen his overall season stats. Pre injury he was averaging 22.4 points on 56.9% for 49 games. Going from 62-> 47 on a higher usage is a big improvement. Shows he was creating his shots a lot more. He also upped his assist% for the team while keeping his TOV% pretty constant shows he was creating more for his teammates. That's a pretty good improvement.

I think the reason we saw so much ISO ball is because the team fell out around him.

--
EDIT: I realized you combined the ast%. His 2pt assist% went from 57->44. That is still a substantial improvement. Also another key aspect that i think is overlooked is he improved is his FG% around the rim from 62% to 67%

[The Box Office]

MVP race. Some of you went crazy. Bulls have to win 55+ games next season. That's 1% chance of happening. Hell, I'd go lower to 0.3%.

[rtblues]

2:39 Kyrie talking Jimmy Butler
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB8B2ni6sKA[/youtube]

[pb-ceo]

I don't know if I'd say many. We certainly have a few of those. I think, despite some unfortunate behaviour from Jimmy last year, he's largely appreciated and respected by Bulls fans as to both his work ethic and quality as a player.

Nonetheless a number of us, me included, think the right thing to do is to trade him, and trade him soon. Which is strategic, and shouldn't be confused with disapproval of Jimmy.

Don't think I've agreed with you more during my years here than over the last week or two. Keep preaching.

Might be because I think a lot of people perceive me as being a FO fanboy, when its more that I just typically happen to agree with their strategies. This summer, I don't. I think they are making a costly mistake, and one that might ripple forward for years before we end up right back where a lot of people don't want to be: rebuilding.

I agree with what I agree with, and disagree with what I disagree with. Its based on objective analysis. And while I understand the counterpoint, I objectively believe our FO is screwing up.

i think they do want to move jimmy, now that they are rebuilding, at his peak value. they just can't say it. we will know more if they sit free agency out, and just fill out the roster with role players. I suspect they will move taj and mdl as well. let's hope BOS increases their offer. See I think jimmy is either BOS bound or LA bound when his deal is up. So you have to trade players before you lose them for nuttin.

[Bomba Navarro]

That's not just all skill and strength like I said a big part of it is his quickness and his ability to get a shoulder pass guys nothing really in that highlight disproved what I was saying.

For him it's mostly savviness and knowing how to use his body, though.
It's obvious he's a very smart guy that has watched a lot of tape over the last few years. For all the criticism he gets, as a young man he plays a lot like many stars do when they start to lose explosiveness. Don't get me wrong, quickness is obviously part of his game, but his game is not predicated on quickness. He's got crazy stamina, but he's not peak Derrick Rose quick, nor can he leap like prime Carter, nor overpower people a la LeBron. He doesn't have an insane handle either. What he does extremely well is to find ways to work his way around the defense and either score or draw the foul.

If you break down Jimmy Butler's skills one by one, neither individually nor with the combination of them would you expect to have a star player. And yet he is a star. That's because he's as savvy as it gets. When I watch him play he reminds me a lot of the way old Wade plays, or even the way old MJ used to play. Father time ends up knocking on everyone's door and he'll be no different, but I always find it pretty surprising when people talk about old Jimmy Butler as if he is gonna play like post 2012 D-Rose. He's nothing like that. His game is mostly dependent on savviness, not on athletic superiority. He's an average NBA wing athleticism-wise, slightly above average at best.

[Dominator83]

Saw this on Twitter the other day. In 11 games without Derrick last season Butler put up 25pts 7rebs 7ast and the Bulls went 9-2. Jimmy is a top 15 player easily and those guys are hard to come by.

My only concern there is how many were WITH Gasol? People can crap on Pau all they want, but him and Jimmy -- Rose was a beautiful combination 2 man game. People here severely underrate how much Pau was a threat on offense and helped make Jimmys life easier. Are opposing defenses really gonna worry about Robin Lopez?? Jimmys life will be much harder now with no real scoring threats out there to consistently drop 20+ a night on good efficiency.

[Paxson43]

That's not just all skill and strength like I said a big part of it is his quickness and his ability to get a shoulder pass guys nothing really in that highlight disproved what I was saying.

For him it's mostly savviness and knowing how to use his body, though.
It's obvious he's a very smart guy that has watched a lot of tape over the last few years. For all the criticism he gets, as a young man he plays a lot like many stars do when they start to lose explosiveness. Don't get me wrong, quickness is obviously part of his game, but his game is not predicated on quickness. He's got crazy stamina, but he's not peak Derrick Rose quick, nor can he leap like prime Carter, nor overpower people a la LeBron. He doesn't have an insane handle either. What he does extremely well is to find ways to work his way around the defense and either score or draw the foul.

If you break down Jimmy Butler's skills one by one, neither individually nor with the combination of them would you expect to have a star player. And yet he is a star. That's because he's as savvy as it gets. When I watch him play he reminds me a lot of the way old Wade plays, or even the way old MJ used to play. Father time ends up knocking on everyone's door and he'll be no different, but I always find it pretty surprising when people talks about old Jimmy Butler as if he is gonna play like post 2012 D-Rose. He's nothing like that. His game is mostly dependent on savviness, not on athletic superiority. He's an average NBA wing athleticism-wise, slightly above average at best.

He's very, very strong. A brute, almost, I've seen him drive and shrug off centers with a quick forearm and they go flying. Jimmy Butler is a legit 6'8" 232 lbs.

[Bomba Navarro]

That's not just all skill and strength like I said a big part of it is his quickness and his ability to get a shoulder pass guys nothing really in that highlight disproved what I was saying.

For him it's mostly savviness and knowing how to use his body, though.
It's obvious he's a very smart guy that has watched a lot of tape over the last few years. For all the criticism he gets, as a young man he plays a lot like many stars do when they start to lose explosiveness. Don't get me wrong, quickness is obviously part of his game, but his game is not predicated on quickness. He's got crazy stamina, but he's not peak Derrick Rose quick, nor can he leap like prime Carter, nor overpower people a la LeBron. He doesn't have an insane handle either. What he does extremely well is to find ways to work his way around the defense and either score or draw the foul.

If you break down Jimmy Butler's skills one by one, neither individually nor with the combination of them would you expect to have a star player. And yet he is a star. That's because he's as savvy as it gets. When I watch him play he reminds me a lot of the way old Wade plays, or even the way old MJ used to play. Father time ends up knocking on everyone's door and he'll be no different, but I always find it pretty surprising when people talks about old Jimmy Butler as if he is gonna play like post 2012 D-Rose. He's nothing like that. His game is mostly dependent on savviness, not on athletic superiority. He's an average NBA wing athleticism-wise, slightly above average at best.

He's very, very strong. A brute, almost, I've seen him drive and shrug off centers with a quick forearm and they go flying. Jimmy Butler is a legit 6'8" 232 lbs.

He's really strong, that's true. He also has a great motor. But that alone doesn't make anybody a star.

Strength shouldn't be expected to be a problem for him down the road anyways.

[PAUerful]

MVP race. Some of you went crazy. Bulls have to win 55+ games next season. That's 1% chance of happening. Hell, I'd go lower to 0.3%.

Not saying he any chance to win it really, just that he'll be somewhat in the discussion, kind of like how Jo was somewhat in the discussion in 2014.