Semi-OT: Worst run franchise in Chicago

[NZB2323]

The Bears fired their GM in 2015 and replaced him with a better GM. Let me know when the Bulls do that.

Ryan Pace has done a good job in both New Orleans(Superbowl) and Chicago. I don't know what people were expecting when Pace took over the team in 2015, with a depleted defense and Jay Cutler at QB. USA Today projected the Bears to win 3 games in the first season Pace took over.

What do you think Pace needs to achieve this year in order to still be viewed as a success? How many years do you think he should have to rebuild from the ground up?

How about Forman and Paxson? If you combine their era, Paxson had one down year when he took the job then built up a promising team that peaked at a 2nd round playoff appearance but was viewed as a dark horse contender. He then had one down season and built up another strong team that peaked at ECF and was viewed as a legit contender.

You can argue the Bulls should have given up on their group earlier rather than trying to hang on, but this is the first season where a direction shift was really apparent (removing Rose/Noah).

So far, Paxson/Forman have been able to rebuild twice with fair amounts of success and few down years in between.

Pace has had two full seasons to recover so far, and his team finished 3-13. How many wins does he need at the end of his 3rd full season for you to feel happy that he's really on the right track? 6? 8? 10?

The Bulls are entering the 2nd year of the Post Rose era, if you gave them the same benefit of the doubt you give Pace, then they should be allowed a 15 win season this year coming up plus whatever win equivalent you give Pace for the end of this year in order to have time to rebuild.

Do you believe Jerry Angelo shouldn't have been fired? Under him the Bears made the superbowl in 2006, and the NFC Championship game in 2010, but that doesn't excuse his failures since then. Pace inherited a mess, and I evaluate each move individually. Part of the reason the Bears haven't been able to rebuild is in his first year the Bears exceeded expectations, winning twice the amount of games that the media thought they would, and winning the tiebreaker against the other 6-10 teams and having to draft after that. It's hardly fair to compare that scenario to a Bulls team that disappoints and wins the lottery off of a 1.7% chance. Also, Pace inherited a mess. GarPax made their own bed.

Paxson did a good job building the team in 2004 and 2010(although a 1.7% chance had a lot to do with that), but that doesn't excuse the mistakes since then:

-Holding a press conference saying we want to get younger and more athletic; then signing Rondo and Wade.
-The McDermott trade.(both of them)
-Blaming injuries on Thibbs for playing players too much, then trading the players for being injured.
-Having 5 point guards on the team, none of which are good.
-Getting a coach that specializes in pace and space, giving him a roster of slow players who can't shoot 3s.

The moves Pace makes make sense. He doesn't hire a coach who loves to pass the ball and have a roster with no Wide Receivers and 10 bad running backs.

[dougthonus]

Do you believe Jerry Angelo shouldn't have been fired? Under him the Bears made the superbowl in 2006, and the NFC Championship game in 2010, but that doesn't excuse his failures since then. Pace inherited a mess, and I evaluate each move individually. Part of the reason the Bears haven't been able to rebuild is in his first year the Bears exceeded expectations, winning twice the amount of games that the media thought they would, and winning the tiebreaker against the other 6-10 teams and having to draft after that. It's hardly fair to compare that scenario to a Bulls team that disappoints and wins the lottery off of a 1.7% chance. Also, Pace inherited a mess. GarPax made their own bed.

Paxson did a good job building the team in 2004 and 2010(although a 1.7% chance had a lot to do with that), but that doesn't excuse the mistakes since then:

-Holding a press conference saying we want to get younger and more athletic; then signing Rondo and Wade.
-The McDermott trade.(both of them)
-Blaming injuries on Thibbs for playing players too much, then trading the players for being injured.
-Having 5 point guards on the team, none of which are good.
-Getting a coach that specializes in pace and space, giving him a roster of slow players who can't shoot 3s.

The moves Pace makes make sense. He doesn't hire a coach who loves to pass the ball and have a roster with no Wide Receivers and 10 bad running backs.

You've ignored my question, so instead of replying point by point (because I do disagree with some of what you've said), let me just ask my most important question again: We are entering Pace's 3rd full season. What level of results do you need to feel good that he's actually done a good job?

[League Circles]

If the Bulls brought in someone new right now, how many years would you give that person before you had to feel good about the results?

I'm also not happy at all with the moves the Bulls made last season in terms of their short term impact, but at the same time, I saw the people available and thought "not much to do but punt and wait a year or two". I'm glad we didn't overspend on worse crap but just kicked the can down the road and saved money.

Yeah, I think too many people evaluate based on pure results as opposed to evaluating decision making process under specific circumstances.

[TheSuzerain]

The Bears fired their GM in 2015 and replaced him with a better GM. Let me know when the Bulls do that.

Ryan Pace has done a good job in both New Orleans(Superbowl) and Chicago. I don't know what people were expecting when Pace took over the team in 2015, with a depleted defense and Jay Cutler at QB. USA Today projected the Bears to win 3 games in the first season Pace took over.

2014: 5-11
2015: 6-10 (Pace takes over)
2016: 3-13

Yeah Pace is killing it!

The Bulls are mediocre. The Bears are **** terrible.

[TheSuzerain]

Say what you will about Reinsdorf, but the guy obviously has more acumen than the McCaskey's who were born into ownership rather than earning it.

[Professor Frink]

Wait, how in the world did the Cubs and Blackhawks each get a vote?!

[SpinninHouse]

My thoughts on Bulls vs Bears are this:

1) I think there is a pretty good chance that Ryan Pace will NOT be able to build a contender.

2) I am absolutely certain that GarPax will not build a contender.

So while I don't have a ton of hope for Pace -- I have absolutely no hope for GarPax. None.

Pace at least had a solid draft last year. Whitehair, Howard and Leonard Floyd are all studs. Those are three huge pieces in one draft class. Yes the 2015 was awful but I still think Eddie Goldman is capable of being a top level player if he can stay healthy. If we have a good draft this year, we could compete by 2018.

Honestly, I see no path to true competitiveness for the Bulls. Not with GarPax. The NBA passed them by. They can't evaluate talent in today's NBA. Absolutely horrific mis-evaluation of talent on young guys. Horrible reputation around the league. It's a nightmare scenario for us with them having Pope jobs.

[BR0D1E86]

Nah still the Bears.

The Bears have a couple offseasons of making good moves with productive draft picks and getting the franchise turned around. The last front office left the team old and devoid of talent. That's not the case any more. They've got quite a bit of young productive talent. Last season was derailed when 21 guys went on IR including their top 3 quarterbacks.

I think it's currently the Bulls or Sox. The Sox made a real nice start to the rebuild they needed, if they keep moving players for solid returns like they did when they started selling off they'll be in a much better spot than the Bulls also.

[SpinninHouse]

Wait, how in the world did the Cubs and Blackhawks each get a vote?!

White Sox fan and St. Louis Blues fan?

[BR0D1E86]

The Bears fired their GM in 2015 and replaced him with a better GM. Let me know when the Bulls do that.

Ryan Pace has done a good job in both New Orleans(Superbowl) and Chicago. I don't know what people were expecting when Pace took over the team in 2015, with a depleted defense and Jay Cutler at QB. USA Today projected the Bears to win 3 games in the first season Pace took over.

2014: 5-11
2015: 6-10 (Pace takes over)
2016: 3-13

Yeah Pace is killing it!

The Bulls are mediocre. The Bears are **** terrible.

Take any NFL team, remove their top 3 quarterbacks, starting LG, C, RG (the group which is likely have the best in the NFL) and their top 3 WR's for the majority of the season and see how good they are. The Bears were probably a 7 or 8 win during a rebuilding period with average NFL health.

[dougthonus]

My thoughts on Bulls vs Bears are this:

1) I think there is a pretty good chance that Ryan Pace will NOT be able to build a contender.

2) I am absolutely certain that GarPax will not build a contender.

The odd thing about this is that GarPax have built a contender twice. The Bulls were picked by some people to come out of the East in 06/07 and 07/08. The Bulls were picked to come out of the East in 11/12 by a lot of people as well.

I think it's weird when people say "GarPax can't build a contender" when they already have. They haven't built a champion because they haven't lucked into a franchise player outside of one year of Derrick Rose playing like one (in which the team made it to the ECF).

So while I don't have a ton of hope for Pace -- I have absolutely no hope for GarPax. None.

And this is why I think Bulls fans (almost everyone in this thread) is being overly reactive about the state of management. I get it though, because it seems like people almost always feel similarly. They are unable to deal with the concept that things cycle and that someone can be very good but not be able to stop hard times. You see the same thing in politics and other walks of life as well.

[NZB2323]

In 2008 the Bulls missed the playoffs. In 2007 the Bulls beat an out of shape Miami team and then lost to the Pistons who lost to the Cavs who got swept by the Spurs. Neither of those teams were contenders.

[dougthonus]

In 2008 the Bulls missed the playoffs. In 2007 the Bulls beat an out of shape Miami team and then lost to the Pistons who lost to the Cavs who got swept by the Spurs. Neither of those teams were contenders.

You seemed to make one person predicting a 3-13 season for the Bears a critical component of your argument that Pace is good, but you don't want to admit that many people felt the Bulls were contenders in 2006/7 and 2007/8 in preseason when judging the Bulls moves? That's an odd juxtaposition.

Also, you've still ignored my question.

How many wins, in season 3, do the Bears need to get for you to feel that Pace is doing a good job? After 3 seasons what is the bar for results in a rebuild?

Do you feel trapped by the question in some way? I mean it's a pretty straight forward thought. Personally, I would expect to see results in the 3rd season of a rebuild in any sport. Two years to clean house, get rid of old contract mistakes, load up on draft picks, give the first two years of guys some time to mature, bring in some guys that fit your style etc..

I'd say my bar for success for the Bears this year is an 7 to 8 wins based with young players that have room to grow being the prime drivers of those wins.

[TheStig]

My thoughts on Bulls vs Bears are this:

1) I think there is a pretty good chance that Ryan Pace will NOT be able to build a contender.

2) I am absolutely certain that GarPax will not build a contender.

The odd thing about this is that GarPax have built a contender twice. The Bulls were picked by some people to come out of the East in 06/07 and 07/08. The Bulls were picked to come out of the East in 11/12 by a lot of people as well.

I think it's weird when people say "GarPax can't build a contender" when they already have. They haven't built a champion because they haven't lucked into a franchise player outside of one year of Derrick Rose playing like one (in which the team made it to the ECF).

So while I don't have a ton of hope for Pace -- I have absolutely no hope for GarPax. None.

And this is why I think Bulls fans (almost everyone in this thread) is being overly reactive about the state of management. I get it though, because it seems like people almost always feel similarly. They are unable to deal with the concept that things cycle and that someone can be very good but not be able to stop hard times. You see the same thing in politics and other walks of life as well.

It's hard to call a team that over a decade won 1 game in the conference finals a contender. Sure, on paper they might have been but in reality they weren't. I think looking back, we had high hopes and got caught up in the moment but in reality, that team never had a chance to beat the Heat.

The Pacer's and Celtics were contender's to the Heat. The Bulls, like the Atlanta Hawks and Raptors, just got to the ECF.

[SpinninHouse]

My thoughts on Bulls vs Bears are this:

1) I think there is a pretty good chance that Ryan Pace will NOT be able to build a contender.

2) I am absolutely certain that GarPax will not build a contender.

The odd thing about this is that GarPax have built a contender twice. The Bulls were picked by some people to come out of the East in 06/07 and 07/08. The Bulls were picked to come out of the East in 11/12 by a lot of people as well.

I think it's weird when people say "GarPax can't build a contender" when they already have. They haven't built a champion because they haven't lucked into a franchise player outside of one year of Derrick Rose playing like one (in which the team made it to the ECF).

So while I don't have a ton of hope for Pace -- I have absolutely no hope for GarPax. None.

And this is why I think Bulls fans (almost everyone in this thread) is being overly reactive about the state of management. I get it though, because it seems like people almost always feel similarly. They are unable to deal with the concept that things cycle and that someone can be very good but not be able to stop hard times. You see the same thing in politics and other walks of life as well.

GarPax absolutely did not "build a contender twice." Clearly we have a different interpretation of the definition "contender." By contender I (and I think most people) mean a legitimate chance of winning a title. The 2006-08 Bulls were absolutely not legitimate title contenders.

The 2006-07 didn't even win 50 games or make it to the ECF's. The 2007-08 team was absolutely awful. They won 33 games. How could a team that over the course of 2 full seasons won 82 games be considered a legitimate contender? They couldn't. I've never heard anybody (on here or else where) say that.

The 2010-11 and 2011-12 teams at least had a shot. But I attribute that to the 1.7% miracle gift of landing Derrick Rose. Somehow you say they needed more "luck" in landing another franchise player. Not sure I agree with that. They got luckier than almost any GM in recent memory.

GarPax have arguably not made a great move since drafting Butler six years ago. It's clear the NBA passed them by years ago. They can't evaluate talent of today's NBA players. Doug McDermott is a great example of a gross mis-evaluation of talent. They clearly are not on the forefront of understanding league trends. They have proven they are incapable of selecting players who are successful in today's NBA.

Look at the last six years of drafting:
2012: Teague
2013: Snell
2014: McDermott (via trade)
2015: Portis
2016: Valentine

Furthermore, they have as bad of a reputation around the NBA as any Front Office. That doesn't come out of no where. How many people have to call them out? From Dwayne Wade to Jeff Van Gundy -- people don't want to be apart of this toxic atmosphere. How quickly did Pau Gasol want to jump ship from this train wreck?

Chocking coaches, firing coaches on Christmas, releasing statements blasting recently terminated coaches, etc. It truly never ends here. I am 100% certain that Gar Forman and John Paxson CANNOT lead us to a title. They must be fired for the incompetence. Only Jerry Reinsdorf would allow this go on as long as it has.

[dougthonus]

It's hard to call a team that over a decade won 1 game in the conference finals a contender. Sure, on paper they might have been but in reality they weren't. I think looking back, we had high hopes and got caught up in the moment but in reality, that team never had a chance to beat the Heat.

The Pacer's and Celtics were contender's to the Heat. The Bulls, like the Atlanta Hawks and Raptors, just got to the ECF.

Disagree, the Bulls had back to back 60+ win seasons. That's true contender status. The Rose era Bulls were legit contenders that were derailed by injuries.

I agree that the 06/07 and 07/08 teams were paper contenders that many people thought were moving in the right direction but ultimately weren't because Ben Wallace was no where near the player people thought he was.

[dougthonus]

The 2006-07 didn't even win 50 games or make it to the ECF's. The 2007-08 team was absolutely awful. They won 33 games. How could a team that over the course of 2 full seasons won 82 games be considered a legitimate contender? They couldn't. I've never heard anybody (on here or else where) say that.

In preseason of both years, many people viewed those teams as contenders (national media types not just random Bulls fans) and were happy with management moves. In hindsight, I completely agree, they weren't great teams.

The 2010-11 and 2011-12 teams at least had a shot. But I attribute that to the 1.7% miracle gift of landing Derrick Rose. Somehow you say they needed more "luck" in landing another franchise player. Not sure I agree with that. They got luckier than almost any GM in recent memory.

Please provide me the list of teams that won a title without lucking into a franchise player? That's just part of what it takes to win in the NBA, some luck.

GarPax have arguably not made a great move since drafting Butler six years ago. It's clear the NBA passed them by years ago. They can't evaluate talent of today's NBA players. Doug McDermott is a great example of a gross mis-evaluation of talent. They clearly are not on the forefront of understanding league trends. They have proven they are incapable of selecting players who are successful in today's NBA.

I agree, their recent history has not been good at all in the draft, though they have also not had good assets to make selections either. The McDermott selection is the only one I find truly damning of that group in that they clearly targeted him as much better than other choices and gave up a lot to get him. Their recent trade to dump him is awful too.

[TheStig]

It's hard to call a team that over a decade won 1 game in the conference finals a contender. Sure, on paper they might have been but in reality they weren't. I think looking back, we had high hopes and got caught up in the moment but in reality, that team never had a chance to beat the Heat.

The Pacer's and Celtics were contender's to the Heat. The Bulls, like the Atlanta Hawks and Raptors, just got to the ECF.

Disagree, the Bulls had back to back 60+ win seasons. That's true contender status. The Rose era Bulls were legit contenders that were derailed by injuries.

I agree that the 06/07 and 07/08 teams were paper contenders that many people thought were moving in the right direction but ultimately weren't because Ben Wallace was no where near the player people thought he was.

They were an excellent regular season team. They played 110% every game but they didn't have contender talent. They could have played Miami 3 more times in the ECF (doubtful Indy was a better team) and still lost all 3.

[SpinninHouse]

The 2006-07 didn't even win 50 games or make it to the ECF's. The 2007-08 team was absolutely awful. They won 33 games. How could a team that over the course of 2 full seasons won 82 games be considered a legitimate contender? They couldn't. I've never heard anybody (on here or else where) say that.

In preseason of both years, many people viewed those teams as contenders (national media types not just random Bulls fans) and were happy with management moves. In hindsight, I completely agree, they weren't great teams.

The 2010-11 and 2011-12 teams at least had a shot. But I attribute that to the 1.7% miracle gift of landing Derrick Rose. Somehow you say they needed more "luck" in landing another franchise player. Not sure I agree with that. They got luckier than almost any GM in recent memory.

Please provide me the list of teams that won a title without lucking into a franchise player? That's just part of what it takes to win in the NBA, some luck.

GarPax have arguably not made a great move since drafting Butler six years ago. It's clear the NBA passed them by years ago. They can't evaluate talent of today's NBA players. Doug McDermott is a great example of a gross mis-evaluation of talent. They clearly are not on the forefront of understanding league trends. They have proven they are incapable of selecting players who are successful in today's NBA.

I agree, their recent history has not been good at all in the draft, though they have also not had good assets to make selections either. The McDermott selection is the only one I find truly damning of that group in that they clearly targeted him as much better than other choices and gave up a lot to get him. Their recent trade to dump him is awful too.

Well, did the Lakers not trade for Kobe Bryant on draft day? He was the 13th overall pick of Charlotte. And did they not sign/trade for Shaq from Orlando? They didn't need 1.7% luck.

Golden State drafted Steph Curry 7th overall, Klay Thompson 11th overall, and Draymond Green in the second round. Seems to me they didn't need 1.7% luck.

The 2014 San Antonio team got Kawai Leonard from Indy (he was drafted 15th). They drafted Tony Parker late in the 1st round. Ginobilli was a second rounder. They certainly didn't need 1.7% luck to get any of those guys. Yes Tim Duncan was picked 1st overall but by 2014 he averaged, what, 14 ppg?

All championship teams need luck in assembling the players -- absolutely. But 1.7% -- you won't find much harder to come by luck then that.

[tiffac]

I feel like the Bulls is the new Cubs before Theo took over. Except the Bulls ain't no lovable losers they just have the luvabulls.

The FO clearly has no idea what they are doing and the league has already passed them by. From drafting to trading, it's a total mess.

It's the worse case scenario that could ever happen to a franchise.