Rebuild or Stay the Course?

[GimmeDat]

ok so in the playoffs against the best team in the league and the #1 defense:

CJ average 22.5 and 6, and 1 40% FG 50%3pt on 5.5 attempts. 94% FT near 60%TS.

as the #2 option!!! off ball!!! with lillard playing like a damn ball hog.

against the #1 defense in the league.

that defense is one of the best defenses of all time considering pace and differential and efficiency allowed in the modern 3 pt era. that defense has 2 DPOY caniddates and 3 or 4 all defense type players and then there is a massive shot blocker.

thats a modern nba player. when lillard went down they won more games not less adn Cj averaged 6-7 assists per game.

I don't think you'll find anyone here that would agree with trading Butler for CJ.

This isn't about saying 'Butler isn't good enough, let's trade him for a non-All-Star undersized SG who doesn't play D, then we'll have a brighter future!'

so then what? trade jimmy for a draft pick? roll the damn dice?? makes no sense. lillard jimmy is a good combo. portland might bite. Cj is 25. and is a modern nba player. TS%around 60% and can score at a 60%TS rate against the #1 defense in the league. there is like 5 players in the entire league that can score and 60%TS or better against the dubs. CJ just did it on volume.

Cj is better than most people know.

Just to clarify, are you saying that CJ>Butler?

[Proven_Winner]

Please no one be mad at us wanting a rebuild nobody hates butler and in a perfect world we'd all probably rather keep him with a shot at the title. Sadly butler ain't winning here. We need to cash in while it's good for us.

[weneeda2guard]

Jimmy is legit, but he is not a guy who can carry a bad roster. Has to be surrounded by quality to succeed. Well most stars do, but he needs more than say lebron and durant. But if you can get a couple solid additions next to Jimmy, and jimmy kinda take a step back from being a 25 ppg scorer and reduced to maybe a 19 ppg but has enough in the tank to really focus on defense, he the kind of player you can win a title with.

This topic is exhausted. Pro tankers want to be heavily pessimistic on any scenarios of trade, signing a big free agent etc but then come with as a alternative an even more farfetched scenario where some young horrible team will part with their top 5 pick on a rookie deal for 2 years of jimmy butler who van bolt if this bad team not close to the playoffs can't quickly build a winner. Like where is the logic in that? We have no one to trade and no way to build around jimmy but oh we can get some bad team to hand over the future of they franchise for a 2 year rental in jimmy? Lol cmon lol

so unless you are ready to rebuild with a fleece package from ainge, the fairytale that you are getting a top 5 pick for jimmy needs to be realized. It's not going to happen. You make that move on a win now situation, not when you are so bad your 2-4 years away from even making the playoffs. Like, when has that ever happened? !?!

So now you left hoping ainge will find pity in his heart and give us the perfect rebuild starter kit, well that is not going to happen. We talk to boston in the summer, how negotiations go, if you said no 2 times before, if you come back begging for us to help, we low ball you even more. Ainge is going to tell garpax take the Memphis pick a couple scrubs or kick rocks. No way they are going to say, oh sure here is the top 3 pick in the draft just cause we think it's fair lol.

We have the resources to get much better. Players get moved for a lot less than what we have at our disposal. We need to make it happen. We just saw boston get 1st seed with 53 wins. It won't take a ton to go from 8th to 1st if we do the right things in the off season.

BTW we need to fire fred

[stilldropin20]

I don't think you'll find anyone here that would agree with trading Butler for CJ.

This isn't about saying 'Butler isn't good enough, let's trade him for a non-All-Star undersized SG who doesn't play D, then we'll have a brighter future!'

so then what? trade jimmy for a draft pick? roll the damn dice?? makes no sense. lillard jimmy is a good combo. portland might bite. Cj is 25. and is a modern nba player. TS%around 60% and can score at a 60%TS rate against the #1 defense in the league. there is like 5 players in the entire league that can score and 60%TS or better against the dubs. CJ just did it on volume.

Cj is better than most people know.

Just to clarify, are you saying that CJ>Butler?

im saying that it doesn't matter who is better

Cj is an easier player to build a team around. If you get a PG, CJ can play off ball (elite). if you get a good SG or SF CJ can play PG. (elite).

when lillard was out and his back-up is no where near as good as lillard. CJ played point. and the blazer won at a higher winning%. Cj is the only under rated guy out there we can get.

CJ is just about the 2nd or 3rd best 3 pt shooter in the entire league. he can score at the rim very well and also has the inbetween game. can be on or off ball in the pick and roll. can spot up. works off ball like a reggie miller/ rip hamilton type.

there is nothing CJ cant do on offense. as a PG he is a decent defender. slightly undersized at SG.

if you get a good post player. Cj can feed him better than jimmy and space the floor better than jimmy. in no universe is it easier to build around jimmy. jimmy needs perfect role palyers that just play defense and make open shots. its almost impossible to get those guys. there are only 2-3 of them in the entire league right now. and if you get them you got to have system in place( a ball movement system and off ball movement system). jimmy clearly doesn't like that type of basketball or is incapable of playing it.

CJ automatically plays ball movement and off ball movement type of basketball. yet can score in iso situations as well as anyone in the league. including jimmy butler.

and yes. imo that type of player is better than the type of player jimmy butler is. just a higher ceiling for the team. i'll put half my life saving on the line right now saying the blazers are a 5 seed or better and get to the western conference finals next year if they keep everyone. bulls will be bottom feeders. yet both were 8 seeds this year. Cj will be a major reason.

portland will also be better if they can move lillard and get a guy like klay thompson to replace him. and a james johnson type to play the 4. but i digress.

yes. ill take Cj over jimmy 8 days a week.

[Jax Teller]

Rebuild or stay the course? What course? This front office has no plan, driving with blinders on.

Whatever happens I can say this with total confidence - this front office will absolutely do the wrong thing. And with our joke owner they will get away with whatever wrong moves they make,its hopeless. Reinsdork and the McCrapsky's are terrible, just terrible. Not blessed with quality owners, only cheapskates who care little about their fans.

[weneeda2guard]

Please no one be mad at us wanting a rebuild nobody hates butler and in a perfect world we'd all probably rather keep him with a shot at the title. Sadly butler ain't winning here. We need to cash in while it's good for us.

Don't worry I get it, we can clear max space have our picks can trade rolo and rondo but oh that is such a insurmountable task that no team would ever be able to build with those resources because we can't go into free agency and sign milsap cp3 and blake which would be the only thing we can do to " move the needle"

But , we should just trade Butler because horrible teams not close to making the playoffs are just lining up to trade there top 5 pick on a cheap deal for a guy who can demand supermax in 2 seasons leaving a team more than 2 years away from even making the playoffs forced to drop a 200 million dollar deal for jimmy butler so that team can fight for the 9th seed for 3 seasons. Lol

Yea, makes perfect sense.

[Jax Teller]

Why are people still saying fire Hoiberg? Reinsdorf is not letting this guy go, pay him 15 mil, and hire another coach. He would rather see the team fail, Reinsdorf is awful. Look at how he keeps this front office going mistake after mistake. Paxson was a champion for him, hit a championship winning shot. While Paxson has run his course there is at least some understanding why Reinsdrip would feel some loyalty toeards him. Still he deserves to be gone. But someone please tell me what the loyalty is to Gar Foreskin? What is it?

[stilldropin20]

so then what? trade jimmy for a draft pick? roll the damn dice?? makes no sense. lillard jimmy is a good combo. portland might bite. Cj is 25. and is a modern nba player. TS%around 60% and can score at a 60%TS rate against the #1 defense in the league. there is like 5 players in the entire league that can score and 60%TS or better against the dubs. CJ just did it on volume.

Cj is better than most people know.

Just to clarify, are you saying that CJ>Butler?

im saying that it doesn't matter who is better

Cj is an easier player to build a team around. If you get a PG, CJ can play off ball (elite). if you get a good SG or SF CJ can play PG. (elite).

when lillard was out and his back-up is no where near as good as lillard. CJ played point. and the blazer won at a higher winning%. Cj is the only under rated guy out there we can get.

CJ is just about the 2nd or 3rd best 3 pt shooter in the entire league. he can score at the rim very well and also has the inbetween game. can be on or off ball in the pick and roll. can spot up. works off ball like a reggie miller/ rip hamilton type.

there is nothing CJ cant do on offense. as a PG he is a decent defender. slightly undersized at SG.

if you get a good post player. Cj can feed him better than jimmy and space the floor better than jimmy. in no universe is it easier to build around jimmy. jimmy needs perfect role palyers that just play defense and make open shots. its almost impossible to get those guys. there are only 2-3 of them in the entire league right now. and if you get them you got to have system in place( a ball movement system and off ball movement system). jimmy clearly doesn't like that type of basketball or is incapable of playing it.

CJ automatically plays ball movement and off ball movement type of basketball. yet can score in iso situations as well as anyone in the league. including jimmy butler.

and yes. imo that type of player is better than the type of player jimmy butler is. just a higher ceiling for the team. i'll put half my life saving on the line right now saying the blazers are a 5 seed or better and get to the western conference finals next year if they keep everyone. bulls will be bottom feeders. yet both were 8 seeds this year. Cj will be a major reason.

portland will also be better if they can move lillard and get a guy like klay thompson to replace him. and a james johnson type to play the 4. but i digress.

yes. ill take Cj over jimmy 8 days a week.

id add that the great modern NBA teams have volume 3 pt shooters at 40% or better. the best teams have 3-4 of them. think about that. so when you tie up 20-30 million, those guys must shoot 40% from 3 on volume.

i mean you saw what boston just did to us??? 3 point shooting kills and good teams are only going get more and more 3 point shooters.

you must be able to shoot the 3 ball and on volume in this modern era. must! must! must! jimmy is not only not that good at it but also doesn't take that many cuz he's not that good at it. so his game (his efficiency) is entire dependent on the refs giving him the favorable whistle. which is another way of saying, jimmy's game is somewhat luck dependent. i dont like depending on luck. give me a career 40% 3 pt shooter and on high volume any day of the week.

ideally id trade jimmy for CJ and sign avery bradley and james johnson

CJ/grant
Bradley/val
Zip/(play JJ here some)
james johnson/portis(play him at C a lot)
rolo(20mpg or trade him)/Taj?? as small ball C/joff(shooter)

im more than down with that for next year. 50 win team. easy. might win 55. no stars. just ball movement and off ball movement. launch 3's! play defense!!

[Ctownbulls]

Really?

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[The Evidence]

"Staying the Course" is just code for slow rebuild

[Proven_Winner]

Please no one be mad at us wanting a rebuild nobody hates butler and in a perfect world we'd all probably rather keep him with a shot at the title. Sadly butler ain't winning here. We need to cash in while it's good for us.

Don't worry I get it, we can clear max space have our picks can trade rolo and rondo but oh that is such a insurmountable task that no team would ever be able to build with those resources because we can't go into free agency and sign milsap cp3 and blake which would be the only thing we can do to " move the needle"

But , we should just trade Butler because horrible teams not close to making the playoffs are just lining up to trade there top 5 pick on a cheap deal for a guy who can demand supermax in 2 seasons leaving a team more than 2 years away from even making the playoffs forced to drop a 200 million dollar deal for jimmy butler so that team can fight for the 9th seed for 3 seasons. Lol

Yea, makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the sarcasm I guess.

I mean if you have a different solution I'm always all ears and understanding. Surely all that typing means you have an idea that might be better. Right?

[6_Rings]

Fire the FO incl coaches. >>


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[GimmeDat]

Fire the FO incl coaches. >>


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That's a separate discussion.

[NADROJ]

...for 2 years of jimmy butler who van bolt if this bad team not close to the playoffs can't quickly build a winner. Like where is the logic in that?

I am, somewhat, unfairly cherry picking a small portion of your much lengthier post. But, it's just as easy to put the Bulls current situation ahead of the above and ask the same question you asked: Where is the logic in that?

The Bulls aren't good, the young guys appear to have a rotation level ceiling, cap space is thin, the middle of the draft is a prayer, and, like you said, Jimmy can bolt in two years if the situation continues to blow.

[Proven_Winner]

I'm still waiting 2 guard I actually want to see your plan for the Bulls that makes you laugh at other people's ideas. I come to this board for debates to hear differing opinions so I hope to see your idea for what we should do.

[Butler4thewin]

At this point I don't think either path actually matters unless we get new management.

They don't understand how to build a team or what the modern league is about.

What this guy said .....at least my 49ers are building well

[weneeda2guard]

...for 2 years of jimmy butler who van bolt if this bad team not close to the playoffs can't quickly build a winner. Like where is the logic in that?

I am, somewhat, unfairly cherry picking a small portion of your much lengthier post. But, it's just as easy to put the Bulls current situation ahead of the above and ask the same question you asked: Where is the logic in that?

The Bulls aren't good, the young guys appear to have a rotation level ceiling, cap space is thin, the middle of the draft is a prayer, and, like you said, Jimmy can bolt in two years if the situation continues to blow.

The issue with your statement, is considering the reality of the situation. Even if you feel the bulls aren't good, cap space thin, etc you still may be forced to try and build with the little you even think we have. Because the chance your getting some great package for jimmy is so unlikely.

And yes I much rather begin the season with a darrin collison ibaka addition team, then to ship jimmy off for the Memphis pick in the 20s and Kelly Olynyk. See if you don't rebuild on a great package your digging yourself a even deeper hole and a franchise may never recover. Can't be do desperate for a rebuild you just do it. If it don't make sense gotta be ready to go another route. Because yes, as farfetched as some think it is, you can rebuild wrong, despite as sure fire some of you think that option is. Rebuild wrong your going to have to reset that rebuild 2 or 3 times before that rebuild starts looking like it's going somewhere.

[Butler4thewin]

Fire the FO incl coaches. >>


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That's a separate discussion.

If you have to choose the best option is either land another impact player close to jimmys level if you can't get at least a Hayward type get the first pick in the draft for jimmy and other assets we could use to trade up year after year

[weneeda2guard]

I'm still waiting 2 guard I actually want to see your plan for the Bulls that makes you laugh at other people's ideas. I come to this board for debates to hear differing opinions so I hope to see your idea for what we should do.

I mean I have posted my ideas a ton. It gets silly with this route, because nay sayers will retort with either why it's soooo impossible to get certain players, or it will be the "doesn't move the needle" argument because they can't beat the warriors or cavs, but can't explain why the other 28 teams in the league are not blowing they teams up.

Cp3 is a option I would explore.

I'm warming up to trading for melo

Ibaka is an option

You could trade for Eric bledsoe or reggie jackson

Jrue Holiday could choose us over philly

Milsap is on the move.

Drummond may be on the move

A ton of cheap options once the big fish fall off the board.

We have our mle

Ability to clear a ton of space

We have our picks

And players on good deals we can trade.

So there are ways to go.

But of course I'm sure all I just posted is unrealistic or we still can't beat the warriors or cavs cool

So now let's wait for that bad team to mortgage they future for a 2 year jimmy rental.

[jcuuofd]

The Bulls will keep Wade because the fans like him, but if they wanted to improve they should let him go along with Rondo, MCW, and Grant, trade Mirotic, and then sign Jeff Teague, Blake Griffin, and Rudy Gay.

2017/2018 Championship Bulls:

PG: Teague/Payne
SG: Butler/Morrow
SF: Gay/Zipser
PF: Griffin/Portis
C: Lopez/Felicio