Coby White has leveled up

[HoopsterJones]

I might be in the minority, but I would seriously consider trading Coby White this off-season. Sell high.

What is an "acceptable" price?

2 assets minimum. A combination of 2 FRPs, or 1 FRP and a young player with potential. Preferably the FRP has the potential to be a lottery pick.

Justification is that Coby is out performing his contract. He has 2 years and $24.9m in salary and would be an attractive piece for another team to add. If the Bulls keep him 2 more seasons, Coby’s next contract is likely going to be around $30m+ AAV and would have a lot less value. Or the negative side of it is the Coby regresses (less likely but you never know). Are we confident the Bulls can build a contender by then? I do not have that confidence, so get what you can now at the highest point.

[Stratmaster]

I might be in the minority, but I would seriously consider trading Coby White this off-season. Sell high.

What is an "acceptable" price?

2 assets minimum. A combination of 2 FRPs, or 1 FRP and a young player with potential. Preferably the FRP has the potential to be a lottery pick.

Justification is that Coby is out performing his contract. He has 2 years and $24.9m in salary and would be an attractive piece for another team to add. If the Bulls keep him 2 more seasons, Coby’s next contract is likely going to be around $30m+ AAV and would have a lot less value. Or the negative side of it is the Coby regresses (less likely but you never know). Are we confident the Bulls can build a contender by then? I do not have that confidence, so get what you can now at the highest point.

Why would anyone give you 2 first round picks for Coby White?

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[dougthonus]

Why would anyone give you 2 first round picks for Coby White?

Coby to SA for our pick back and a future lotto protected 1st.

I think they would consider it.

1: Coby's on a cheap contract
2: Fills a position of need
3: Matches up well with Wemby's timeline (will be in prime for another 10 years)
4: ~80% probability he's better than the player you'd get with either pick, and you get him now
5: If we were open to trading him, he might be the only player his age / skill level available on the market

If you are trying to get a guy under 25 years old to pair with Wemby, I don't know that a better player would be available with that package.

[sco]

Why would anyone give you 2 first round picks for Coby White?

Coby to SA for our pick back and a future lotto protected 1st.

I think they would consider it.

1: Coby's on a cheap contract
2: Fills a position of need
3: Matches up well with Wemby's timeline (will be in prime for another 10 years)
4: ~80% probability he's better than the player you'd get with either pick, and you get him now
5: If we were open to trading him, he might be the only player his age / skill level available on the market

If you are trying to get a guy under 25 years old to pair with Wemby, I don't know that a better player would be available with that package.

I could see that from SA's perspective work. Unfortunately we won't do it.

[Stratmaster]

Why would anyone give you 2 first round picks for Coby White?

Coby to SA for our pick back and a future lotto protected 1st.

I think they would consider it.

1: Coby's on a cheap contract
2: Fills a position of need
3: Matches up well with Wemby's timeline (will be in prime for another 10 years)
4: ~80% probability he's better than the player you'd get with either pick, and you get him now
5: If we were open to trading him, he might be the only player his age / skill level available on the market

If you are trying to get a guy under 25 years old to pair with Wemby, I don't know that a better player would be available with that package.

They would have to believe he is their starting...what? PG? Unlikely. SG? I don't really know their (SA) guards well. From a production standpoint, strictly by the numbers, Vassell gave them pretty much the same numbers as White, is the same age, and is listed as their starting SG. He is touted as an elite scorer and a great pairing with Wemby. At one point this season (january) he was shooting 45% from 3, but fell off to around 38% (sound familiar?). He will be on year 2 of a declining 5 year/135 million contract that they just gave him before last season.

Is White that much better than Vassell that you would give up 2 first round picks for the upgrade? Is White even better than Vassell? (Honest question. I really don't know).

They also have 4 other guards listed on their roster who are 25 or less; but, don't see any playing time for a couple of them.

Coby has played 5 seasons, wasn't even starting in his 4th... despite all the hype from his early hot streak this season he seems to be 6th man material.

If someone will give you 2 firsts for him, IMO you jump on it. I don't think they will get that offer though.

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[nekorajo]

I'm conflicted about Coby’s future here. My gut is saying sell high on Coby (it basically says that about everyone), but my heart wants to see what he can become here. What if he stops missing open 3s? What if he learns to defend right handed players with his left? What if he gains poise? Learns how to move off the ball? Learns to close out and make shooters uncomfortable. Learns to study and capitalize on the opposition's tendencies? I can see some of these things happening. I'm just not sure how much he wants to improve. This off-season will be telling.

My asking price right now is 2 lottery picks and dumping Vuc's contract. Unlikely, I know.

[dougthonus]

They would have to believe he is their starting...what? PG? Unlikely. SG? I don't really know their (SA) guards well. From a production standpoint, strictly by the numbers, Vassell gave them pretty much the same numbers as White, is the same age, and is listed as their starting SG. He is touted as an elite scorer and a great pairing with Wemby. At one point this season (january) he was shooting 45% from 3, but fell off to around 38% (sound familiar?). He will be on year 2 of a declining 5 year/135 million contract that they just gave him before last season.

Is White that much better than Vassell that you would give up 2 first round picks for the upgrade? Is White even better than Vassell? (Honest question. I really don't know).

They also have 4 other guards listed on their roster who are 25 or less; but, don't see any playing time for a couple of them.

Coby has played 5 seasons, wasn't even starting in his 4th... despite all the hype from his early hot streak this season he seems to be 6th man material.

If someone will give you 2 firsts for him, IMO you jump on it. I don't think they will get that offer though.

I don't think you can use "2 1sts" as just a generic, I listed two highly protected 1sts. There's a pretty big difference there given the pedestrian upside of both picks that will both project into considerably worse players than Coby unless you get lucky.

Coby is probably the best guard on their team if they trade for him. There's no reason they can't play him and Vassell next to each other with Coby at PG and Vassell at SG. Who cares if they have a bunch of other considerably worse, young guards on the roster? What does that get them? Coby is young and is good today.

Who cares what Coby did his first couple seasons when the team didn't believe in him or want him? Once they were forced against their will to give him a serious run, he put up very good numbers. There's no one else that put up 19/5 that would be available for this package in his general age range that would align with Wemby.

No idea if they'd do it for sure, but it's definitely in the ball park for all the reasons I mentioned. With how great Wemby was out the gates, the pressure will be on SA to build faster than maybe they anticipated.

[Jcool0]

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[dougthonus]

I won't say Coby got screwed, but I do think this was a vote more on narrative than anything else. The 76ers were a hot team for awhile if we ignore that they fell to the 7th seed and had an absolute nose dive when Embiid got hurt. Maxey is simply the better player, but one could argue his leap was actually pretty small this year and that he just added some raw numbers and mediocre efficiency.

Maxey's percentages this year were somewhat lower than last year, and his added volume was mostly on poor percentages relative to last year.

Coby added 2x Maxey's add to PPG and increased his percentages slightly (rather than decreasingly somewhat meaningfully). Granted, Coby's increases were more about playing time of course, but his per 36 numbers still had bigger increases than Maxey's as did his role increased by a much larger amount.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Personally felt like Coby was the better pick for MIP, but they went with the player that made playoffs....stupid but i get it

[Jcool0]

I think Coby had this award and then fell off in February losing the narrative.

[dougthonus]

I think Coby had this award and then fell off in February losing the narrative.

I don't know about that.

The 76ers absolutely went in the tank at the same time, and I think that hurt Maxey more than Coby.

What I think lost him the award is that the last time someone won it where they weren't a 1st time all-star was Pascal Siakam in 18/19. That was the year the Raptors won 58 and the title and Siakam would go on to make the all star game the next year. The Bulls didn't have a great record to draw attention nor would you look at Coby as an all-star next year.

Whether right or wrong, the narrative has been to give it to a guy who gets his 1st all-star nod even if their actual improvement isn't so meaningful.

[League Circles]

They would have to believe he is their starting...what? PG? Unlikely. SG? I don't really know their (SA) guards well. From a production standpoint, strictly by the numbers, Vassell gave them pretty much the same numbers as White, is the same age, and is listed as their starting SG. He is touted as an elite scorer and a great pairing with Wemby. At one point this season (january) he was shooting 45% from 3, but fell off to around 38% (sound familiar?). He will be on year 2 of a declining 5 year/135 million contract that they just gave him before last season.

Is White that much better than Vassell that you would give up 2 first round picks for the upgrade? Is White even better than Vassell? (Honest question. I really don't know).

They also have 4 other guards listed on their roster who are 25 or less; but, don't see any playing time for a couple of them.

Coby has played 5 seasons, wasn't even starting in his 4th... despite all the hype from his early hot streak this season he seems to be 6th man material.

If someone will give you 2 firsts for him, IMO you jump on it. I don't think they will get that offer though.

I don't think you can use "2 1sts" as just a generic, I listed two highly protected 1sts. There's a pretty big difference there given the pedestrian upside of both picks that will both project into considerably worse players than Coby unless you get lucky.

Coby is probably the best guard on their team if they trade for him. There's no reason they can't play him and Vassell next to each other with Coby at PG and Vassell at SG. Who cares if they have a bunch of other considerably worse, young guards on the roster? What does that get them? Coby is young and is good today.

Who cares what Coby did his first couple seasons when the team didn't believe in him or want him? Once they were forced against their will to give him a serious run, he put up very good numbers. There's no one else that put up 19/5 that would be available for this package in his general age range that would align with Wemby.

No idea if they'd do it for sure, but it's definitely in the ball park for all the reasons I mentioned. With how great Wemby was out the gates, the pressure will be on SA to build faster than maybe they anticipated.

I'm having a hard time even understanding this conversation. Coby White is a #7 pick that has actually panned out. That SHOULD be worth like a #5 overall pick. I'm not saying it is, but IMO 30 GMs in the league would wipe their ass with any two non-top ten picks and send them in a heart beat for Cony White right now if they were honest, but they won't be for a variety of reasons. I certainly wouldn't trade him for some quantity package of meh picks. Coby isn't great, but he's outright good, and there are only about 5 guys in every draft that become that for the bulk of their careers. It's rare just to get a good player in this league. Most teams only have like 1 - 4 good players at all.

[Stratmaster]

They would have to believe he is their starting...what? PG? Unlikely. SG? I don't really know their (SA) guards well. From a production standpoint, strictly by the numbers, Vassell gave them pretty much the same numbers as White, is the same age, and is listed as their starting SG. He is touted as an elite scorer and a great pairing with Wemby. At one point this season (january) he was shooting 45% from 3, but fell off to around 38% (sound familiar?). He will be on year 2 of a declining 5 year/135 million contract that they just gave him before last season.

Is White that much better than Vassell that you would give up 2 first round picks for the upgrade? Is White even better than Vassell? (Honest question. I really don't know).

They also have 4 other guards listed on their roster who are 25 or less; but, don't see any playing time for a couple of them.

Coby has played 5 seasons, wasn't even starting in his 4th... despite all the hype from his early hot streak this season he seems to be 6th man material.

If someone will give you 2 firsts for him, IMO you jump on it. I don't think they will get that offer though.

I don't think you can use "2 1sts" as just a generic, I listed two highly protected 1sts. There's a pretty big difference there given the pedestrian upside of both picks that will both project into considerably worse players than Coby unless you get lucky.

Coby is probably the best guard on their team if they trade for him. There's no reason they can't play him and Vassell next to each other with Coby at PG and Vassell at SG. Who cares if they have a bunch of other considerably worse, young guards on the roster? What does that get them? Coby is young and is good today.

Who cares what Coby did his first couple seasons when the team didn't believe in him or want him? Once they were forced against their will to give him a serious run, he put up very good numbers. There's no one else that put up 19/5 that would be available for this package in his general age range that would align with Wemby.

No idea if they'd do it for sure, but it's definitely in the ball park for all the reasons I mentioned. With how great Wemby was out the gates, the pressure will be on SA to build faster than maybe they anticipated.

I'm having a hard time even understanding this conversation. Coby White is a #7 pick that has actually panned out. That SHOULD be worth like a #5 overall pick. I'm not saying it is, but IMO 30 GMs in the league would wipe their ass with any two non-top ten picks and send them in a heart beat for Cony White right now if they were honest, but they won't be for a variety of reasons. I certainly wouldn't trade him for some quantity package of meh picks. Coby isn't great, but he's outright good, and there are only about 5 guys in every draft that become that for the bulk of their careers. It's rare just to get a good player in this league. Most teams only have like 1 - 4 good players at all.

Coby hasn't panned out to a #5 pick. He hasn't "panned out" to his #7 draft position. In 5 seasons and 348 games he has only started in 152 of them. His value is supposed to be scoring but he has never hit a 15 PER (which is supposedley NBA average) in any of his 5 seasons. His best TS% is .572 and that was last season, not this season. He is a .369 career 3 point shooter in a league that averaged 36%, and again, this season wasn't his best.

He has not been a starter quality player in the NBA. Give me a top 10 pick and anything else for him, and I jump on it.

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[Stratmaster]

I think Coby had this award and then fell off in February losing the narrative.

I don't know about that.

The 76ers absolutely went in the tank at the same time, and I think that hurt Maxey more than Coby.

What I think lost him the award is that the last time someone won it where they weren't a 1st time all-star was Pascal Siakam in 18/19. That was the year the Raptors won 58 and the title and Siakam would go on to make the all star game the next year. The Bulls didn't have a great record to draw attention nor would you look at Coby as an all-star next year.

Whether right or wrong, the narrative has been to give it to a guy who gets his 1st all-star nod even if their actual improvement isn't so meaningful.

Coby only had this award early in the minds of Chicago fans, and during the hot streak he had.

It's tough to build a case for MIP for a guy who regressed all the way back to the mean the 2nd half of the season.

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[League Circles]

I don't think you can use "2 1sts" as just a generic, I listed two highly protected 1sts. There's a pretty big difference there given the pedestrian upside of both picks that will both project into considerably worse players than Coby unless you get lucky.

Coby is probably the best guard on their team if they trade for him. There's no reason they can't play him and Vassell next to each other with Coby at PG and Vassell at SG. Who cares if they have a bunch of other considerably worse, young guards on the roster? What does that get them? Coby is young and is good today.

Who cares what Coby did his first couple seasons when the team didn't believe in him or want him? Once they were forced against their will to give him a serious run, he put up very good numbers. There's no one else that put up 19/5 that would be available for this package in his general age range that would align with Wemby.

No idea if they'd do it for sure, but it's definitely in the ball park for all the reasons I mentioned. With how great Wemby was out the gates, the pressure will be on SA to build faster than maybe they anticipated.

I'm having a hard time even understanding this conversation. Coby White is a #7 pick that has actually panned out. That SHOULD be worth like a #5 overall pick. I'm not saying it is, but IMO 30 GMs in the league would wipe their ass with any two non-top ten picks and send them in a heart beat for Cony White right now if they were honest, but they won't be for a variety of reasons. I certainly wouldn't trade him for some quantity package of meh picks. Coby isn't great, but he's outright good, and there are only about 5 guys in every draft that become that for the bulk of their careers. It's rare just to get a good player in this league. Most teams only have like 1 - 4 good players at all.

Coby hasn't panned out to a #5 pick. He hasn't "panned out" to his #7 draft position. In 5 seasons and 348 games he has only started in 152 of them. His value is supposed to be scoring but he has never hit a 15 PER (which is supposedley NBA average) in any of his 5 seasons. His best TS% is .572 and that was last season, not this season. He is a .369 career 3 point shooter in a league that averaged 36%, and again, this season wasn't his best.

He has not been a starter quality player in the NBA. Give me a top 10 pick and anything else for him, and I jump on it.

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Which 7 guys do you think are better than him right now from his draft?

You often like to point to very broad stats as some kind of precise indication of how good a player is. I don't see things that way at all. Coby is a 3 level scorer who can also playmake, rebound, defend pretty well and has emerging leadership skills. There's a reason he just narrowly missed the MIP award.

Hasn't been starting quality??? He's a good starter right now. He's definitely better than a bunch of starting guards we've put out there over the past 8 years or so.

[Stratmaster]

I'm having a hard time even understanding this conversation. Coby White is a #7 pick that has actually panned out. That SHOULD be worth like a #5 overall pick. I'm not saying it is, but IMO 30 GMs in the league would wipe their ass with any two non-top ten picks and send them in a heart beat for Cony White right now if they were honest, but they won't be for a variety of reasons. I certainly wouldn't trade him for some quantity package of meh picks. Coby isn't great, but he's outright good, and there are only about 5 guys in every draft that become that for the bulk of their careers. It's rare just to get a good player in this league. Most teams only have like 1 - 4 good players at all.

Coby hasn't panned out to a #5 pick. He hasn't "panned out" to his #7 draft position. In 5 seasons and 348 games he has only started in 152 of them. His value is supposed to be scoring but he has never hit a 15 PER (which is supposedley NBA average) in any of his 5 seasons. His best TS% is .572 and that was last season, not this season. He is a .369 career 3 point shooter in a league that averaged 36%, and again, this season wasn't his best.

He has not been a starter quality player in the NBA. Give me a top 10 pick and anything else for him, and I jump on it.

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Which 7 guys do you think are better than him right now from his draft?

You often like to point to very broad stats as some kind of precise indication of how good a player is. I don't see things that way at all. Coby is a 3 level scorer who can also playmake, rebound, defend pretty well and has emerging leadership skills. There's a reason he just narrowly missed the MIP award.

Hasn't been starting quality??? He's a good starter right now. He's definitely better than a bunch of starting guards we've put out there over the past 8 years or so.

Yes. The objective data means nothing in the face of your assessment. What 3 levels does he score at? He shot 36% from 3 to 10 feet (worse than last season). 27% from 16' to the 3 point line. He was pretty good from 10-16' and average from 3 point (relative to players considered 3 point shooters).

He was 22nd among guards in PPG. 41st among guards in 3 point percentage.

Coby is a fantastic threat when he is hot but is very inconsistent. I like Coby. But he wasn't what the Bulls PR machine convinced some of us that he was.

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[League Circles]

Coby hasn't panned out to a #5 pick. He hasn't "panned out" to his #7 draft position. In 5 seasons and 348 games he has only started in 152 of them. His value is supposed to be scoring but he has never hit a 15 PER (which is supposedley NBA average) in any of his 5 seasons. His best TS% is .572 and that was last season, not this season. He is a .369 career 3 point shooter in a league that averaged 36%, and again, this season wasn't his best.

He has not been a starter quality player in the NBA. Give me a top 10 pick and anything else for him, and I jump on it.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Which 7 guys do you think are better than him right now from his draft?

You often like to point to very broad stats as some kind of precise indication of how good a player is. I don't see things that way at all. Coby is a 3 level scorer who can also playmake, rebound, defend pretty well and has emerging leadership skills. There's a reason he just narrowly missed the MIP award.

Hasn't been starting quality??? He's a good starter right now. He's definitely better than a bunch of starting guards we've put out there over the past 8 years or so.

Yes. The objective data means nothing in the face of your assessment. What 3 levels does he score at? He shot 36% from 3 to 10 feet (worse than last season). 27% from 16' to the 3 point line. He was pretty good from 10-16' and average from 3 point (relative to players considered 3 point shooters).

He was 22nd among guards in PPG. 41st among guards in 3 point percentage.

Coby is a fantastic threat when he is hot but is very inconsistent. I like Coby. But he wasn't what the Bulls PR machine convinced some of us that he was.

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He can shoot threes, drive to the basket (and get fouls) and shoot from mid range.

So he was 22nd in the league in your go-to metric, in a league with 60 starting guards, but he's not starter quality. Gotcha.

The Bulls were a thoroughly mediocre team. Which players were compensating for Coby's alleged bench-player level performance to lift the Bulls up to mediocre? Vuc, Demar? Patrick Williams? Ayo?

Still waiting for the list of 7 guys currently better than him from his draft whenever you're ready.

You're just wrong.

[step]

I won't say Coby got screwed, but I do think this was a vote more on narrative than anything else. The 76ers were a hot team for awhile if we ignore that they fell to the 7th seed and had an absolute nose dive when Embiid got hurt. Maxey is simply the better player, but one could argue his leap was actually pretty small this year and that he just added some raw numbers and mediocre efficiency.

Maxey's percentages this year were somewhat lower than last year, and his added volume was mostly on poor percentages relative to last year.

Coby added 2x Maxey's add to PPG and increased his percentages slightly (rather than decreasingly somewhat meaningfully). Granted, Coby's increases were more about playing time of course, but his per 36 numbers still had bigger increases than Maxey's as did his role increased by a much larger amount.

I agree. Can't say I've had a hard look at the numbers, but I think Maxey was more a case of increased usage rather than improvement?

[kodo]

The big jump in ppg for Coby is probably also qualified by the fact that he's averaged 15 ppg in the past, so it's not like some guy who has never averaged more than 9 ppg in the league all of a sudden jumped to 19 ppg.

Coby 2nd year: 15 ppg 5 apg 36% 3P
Coby this year: 19 ppg 5 apg 37% 3P

Similarly nobody is really impressed with Collin Sexton improving from 14 ppg to 19 ppg...he's averaged even more than that in the past.