Coby White has leveled up

[Stratmaster]

Great theatre guys. Thanks Strat and Duck.

Coby needs to play off ball because he’s the only shooter on the team with Zach and Pat out. Ayo is starting to rise as a shooter though. Vuc keeps chucking 3s at a 25% clip.

Most efficient shot in hoops is FT, Layup/Dunk, C+S 3… not a dribble 3. C+S.

Billy wants Coby off ball because he won’t be passing to DDR Vuc Dalen and company to brick.

If Billy thinks Coby needs to play off-ball to keep the ball away from DDR and Vuc... well then he is a coward and an idiot. But I don't think that is the case at all.

Billy's solution to EVERYTHING is give the ball to Demar, and Demar will be the one bringing the ball up a good portion of the time if you take the ball out of Coby's hands.

His only other mantra is "Vuc as the Connector", "we have to play through Vuc".

If anything, I believe Ayo morphing into a guy who looks like a 5th starter quality player might make Billy think he can have Ayo facilitate the offense more and put Coby off-ball. I think that would be a mistake and would pull Ayo back down to earth. But Billy is pretty good at figuring out how to mitigate success by asking a player to do something more, or completely different, than what they have had success with:

-Demar needs to become a 3 point shooter
-Vuc needs to be the Joakim Noah of the offense
-Zach needs to shoot less. No wait. PBev says he needs to shoot more. No wait, he needs to shoot less.
-Caruso needs to be a PF
-Drummond needs to sit on the bench (he finally got past that one months after fans were calling him out for it)
-Coby is a 6th man. No wait. Coby is a PG. No wait. Coby needs to play off ball more
-Coby is our starting Guard next to Zach. No wait. Ayo is the starter. No wait. Coby is the starter. Bahhh...just start them both.
-We lack 3 point shooting and rebounding size? OK let's not play Bitim until game 58.

[sco]

Great theatre guys. Thanks Strat and Duck.

Coby needs to play off ball because he’s the only shooter on the team with Zach and Pat out. Ayo is starting to rise as a shooter though. Vuc keeps chucking 3s at a 25% clip.

Most efficient shot in hoops is FT, Layup/Dunk, C+S 3… not a dribble 3. C+S.

Billy wants Coby off ball because he won’t be passing to DDR Vuc Dalen and company to brick.

If Billy thinks Coby needs to play off-ball to keep the ball away from DDR and Vuc... well then he is a coward and an idiot. But I don't think that is the case at all.

Billy's solution to EVERYTHING is give the ball to Demar, and Demar will be the one bringing the ball up a good portion of the time if you take the ball out of Coby's hands.

His only other mantra is "Vuc as the Connector", "we have to play through Vuc".

If anything, I believe Ayo morphing into a guy who looks like a 5th starter quality player might make Billy think he can have Ayo facilitate the offense more and put Coby off-ball. I think that would be a mistake and would pull Ayo back down to earth. But Billy is pretty good at figuring out how to mitigate success by asking a player to do something more, or completely different, than what they have had success with:

-Demar needs to become a 3 point shooter
-Vuc needs to be the Joakim Noah of the offense
-Zach needs to shoot less. No wait. PBev says he needs to shoot more. No wait, he needs to shoot less.
-Caruso needs to be a PF
-Drummond needs to sit on the bench (he finally got past that one months after fans were calling him out for it)
-Coby is a 6th man. No wait. Coby is a PG. No wait. Coby needs to play off ball more
-Coby is our starting Guard next to Zach. No wait. Ayo is the starter. No wait. Coby is the starter. Bahhh...just start them both.
-We lack 3 point shooting and rebounding size? OK let's not play Bitim until game 58.

I think that the Bulls decided to quietly fold the tent regarding this season when Pat went down. After that, they seem to be using the rest of the season to see who works in what role. With uncertainty regarding Zach, DDR, Pat and Drummond, I think they want to figure out how to best cobble together a team. I would probably do the same thing. I'm happy that they are giving Bitim a good long look. Coby and Ayo are interesting question marks.

[jump]

Great theatre guys. Thanks Strat and Duck.

Coby needs to play off ball because he’s the only shooter on the team with Zach and Pat out. Ayo is starting to rise as a shooter though. Vuc keeps chucking 3s at a 25% clip.

Most efficient shot in hoops is FT, Layup/Dunk, C+S 3… not a dribble 3. C+S.

Billy wants Coby off ball because he won’t be passing to DDR Vuc Dalen and company to brick.

If Billy thinks Coby needs to play off-ball to keep the ball away from DDR and Vuc... well then he is a coward and an idiot. But I don't think that is the case at all.

Billy's solution to EVERYTHING is give the ball to Demar, and Demar will be the one bringing the ball up a good portion of the time if you take the ball out of Coby's hands.

His only other mantra is "Vuc as the Connector", "we have to play through Vuc".

If anything, I believe Ayo morphing into a guy who looks like a 5th starter quality player might make Billy think he can have Ayo facilitate the offense more and put Coby off-ball. I think that would be a mistake and would pull Ayo back down to earth. But Billy is pretty good at figuring out how to mitigate success by asking a player to do something more, or completely different, than what they have had success with:

-Demar needs to become a 3 point shooter
-Vuc needs to be the Joakim Noah of the offense
-Zach needs to shoot less. No wait. PBev says he needs to shoot more. No wait, he needs to shoot less.
-Caruso needs to be a PF
-Drummond needs to sit on the bench (he finally got past that one months after fans were calling him out for it)
-Coby is a 6th man. No wait. Coby is a PG. No wait. Coby needs to play off ball more
-Coby is our starting Guard next to Zach. No wait. Ayo is the starter. No wait. Coby is the starter. Bahhh...just start them both.
-We lack 3 point shooting and rebounding size? OK let's not play Bitim until game 58.

I think that the Bulls decided to quietly fold the tent regarding this season when Pat went down. After that, they seem to be using the rest of the season to see who works in what role. With uncertainty regarding Zach, DDR, Pat and Drummond, I think they want to figure out how to best cobble together a team. I would probably do the same thing. I'm happy that they are giving Bitim a good long look. Coby and Ayo are interesting question marks.

I agree. Injuries are forcing the Bulls to do what management can't seem to do on its own: Let the younger players on the court to develop for the future. Counting on the big three and Pat, the team was stuck in nowheresville. Hopefully we can see significant time for Bitim, Phillips, maybe even Drell? Along with Coby and Ayo and Caruso. Maybe we won't even make the Play In and get lucky with a top draft choice.

[Stratmaster]

Great theatre guys. Thanks Strat and Duck.

Coby needs to play off ball because he’s the only shooter on the team with Zach and Pat out. Ayo is starting to rise as a shooter though. Vuc keeps chucking 3s at a 25% clip.

Most efficient shot in hoops is FT, Layup/Dunk, C+S 3… not a dribble 3. C+S.

Billy wants Coby off ball because he won’t be passing to DDR Vuc Dalen and company to brick.

If Billy thinks Coby needs to play off-ball to keep the ball away from DDR and Vuc... well then he is a coward and an idiot. But I don't think that is the case at all.

Billy's solution to EVERYTHING is give the ball to Demar, and Demar will be the one bringing the ball up a good portion of the time if you take the ball out of Coby's hands.

His only other mantra is "Vuc as the Connector", "we have to play through Vuc".

If anything, I believe Ayo morphing into a guy who looks like a 5th starter quality player might make Billy think he can have Ayo facilitate the offense more and put Coby off-ball. I think that would be a mistake and would pull Ayo back down to earth. But Billy is pretty good at figuring out how to mitigate success by asking a player to do something more, or completely different, than what they have had success with:

-Demar needs to become a 3 point shooter
-Vuc needs to be the Joakim Noah of the offense
-Zach needs to shoot less. No wait. PBev says he needs to shoot more. No wait, he needs to shoot less.
-Caruso needs to be a PF
-Drummond needs to sit on the bench (he finally got past that one months after fans were calling him out for it)
-Coby is a 6th man. No wait. Coby is a PG. No wait. Coby needs to play off ball more
-Coby is our starting Guard next to Zach. No wait. Ayo is the starter. No wait. Coby is the starter. Bahhh...just start them both.
-We lack 3 point shooting and rebounding size? OK let's not play Bitim until game 58.

I think that the Bulls decided to quietly fold the tent regarding this season when Pat went down. After that, they seem to be using the rest of the season to see who works in what role. With uncertainty regarding Zach, DDR, Pat and Drummond, I think they want to figure out how to best cobble together a team. I would probably do the same thing. I'm happy that they are giving Bitim a good long look. Coby and Ayo are interesting question marks.

I can see this also, and with each loss, they will likely move more in that direction.

My issue is that Coby has been here for more than a while. Same with Ayo and Pat. If your coach hasn't figured out how to use them by now, you have a coaching problem, or you have 3 players who aren't going to cut it as starters.

What is really sad is I still don't think they have decided which it is. Of course, 2 things can be true at the same time. Maybe it's both.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[MrSparkle]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

[kodo]

Well we have figured out how to use Ayo well...and it's to ignore how slow the team is. He's the one guy that has the greenlight to ignore the entire team, which is 29th in the league in pace, and just use his speed to push the ball against a scrambling defense and get to the rim either for a layup or spray out 3. Ayo is off in his own world, and he's scoring at far greater efficiency than the normal half court, slow it down Bulls. What's crazy is that because the rest of the team is so slow, when he's going downhill it's often 1 on 3 and he's still scoring at better efficiency than the rest of the team.

I think Billy is trying to split hairs and do both. He wants to develop Ayo & Coby (and the other kids) but he's still giving Demar & Vuc more possessions than ever due to Lavine going out. There's a huge conflict there they don't want to acknowledge, that walking the ball up past half court in 7.9 seconds and running the same exact sets everyone in the league has seen for 3 years now isn't the same when Ayo grabs a missed shot and sprints ahead against a scrambling defense. Despite playing small we're 30th in Transition FGA. The other good teams with very low transition possessions play big, Minnesota and Denver.

We're in this weird spot where it's the worst of both worlds. We aren't getting the advantages of a big lineup like Minny & Denver, and we're not getting the advantages of a small lineup like easy transition points because we're still waiting for the slowest member of the team to get into position so we can run the P&R with him. You can be a fan of all four of Coby, Ayo, Demar, and Vuc but they still don't form a 5 man starting unit that has some clear identity or strength you're trying to exploit to win.

[Stratmaster]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[Ice Man]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

This post is spot on. Correct about what Coby has achieved and correct about what he yet needs to achieve, for the Bulls to have even a modest future hope. (And only modest -- even with Brunson becoming what we dream Coby could be, and with Randle, the Knicks are a good team but not yet a true contender.)

[Chi town]

Coby doing Coby things again.

https://youtu.be/oSo2ydb2Vm4?si=nzzPOSNQbyYQwmg-

[PaKii94]

Coby doing Coby things again.

https://youtu.be/oSo2ydb2Vm4?si=nzzPOSNQbyYQwmg-

He did this in 2020

[Ice Man]

Coby doing Coby things again.

https://youtu.be/oSo2ydb2Vm4?si=nzzPOSNQbyYQwmg-

Each year, Coby gets more consistent than the previous year. The young man has a very good head on his shoulders. Also, it should be noted, the Bulls have played 61 games and Coby has started 61 games. By today's standards, that makes him an iron man.

[sco]

Coby doing Coby things again.

https://youtu.be/oSo2ydb2Vm4?si=nzzPOSNQbyYQwmg-

Each year, Coby gets more consistent than the previous year. The young man has a very good head on his shoulders. Also, it should be noted, the Bulls have played 61 games and Coby has started 61 games. By today's standards, that makes him an iron man.

Great point. I LOVE guys who add to their game every year. He is clearly that. Beyond the ball handing leap this season, I am surprised how often he has been dunking given that he's not really big, or a big leaper, and has relatively short arms, but good for him with those ups!

[Mk0]

Coby doing Coby things again.

https://youtu.be/oSo2ydb2Vm4?si=nzzPOSNQbyYQwmg-

Each year, Coby gets more consistent than the previous year. The young man has a very good head on his shoulders. Also, it should be noted, the Bulls have played 61 games and Coby has started 61 games. By today's standards, that makes him an iron man.

This was also one of the only years he had the offseason to grow his game rather than spend it in recovery.

Same issue that faces Patrick Williams, how do you get better if you are rehabbing an injury all offseason? Answer is... you don't

Coby's handles have opened up his game dramatically. He is burned Barnes, Fox and Keegan Murray who are all solid-to-good defenders. That doesn't happen without a great offseason.

[DuckIII]

I read that after the Kings game the police were called to the Golden 1 Center for a reported break in. Turns out it was just Harrison Barnes looking for his dignity.

[League Circles]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

[sco]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

I know it's just semantics in this case, I think of "build around" to mean filling in positions with guys based on the strengths or weaknesses of a player. I don't think that what was meant here, I think the question on the table is whether we'd roll with Coby as our starting PG going forward. And I expect that will be the case next season, even if Ball comes back healthy, I can't see him as a starter next season, and we don't have enough cap space to bring in anyone new (not that we would if we could).

This offseason will be interesting with so many guys in flux. I expect we'll keep Demar, but Zach is more of a question mark; however, I really don't expect any team to offer enough for us to trade him until he shows he is healthy next season.

[Stratmaster]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

Coby is a better help defender. Zach is a better on-ball defender. Coby really can't stop anyone on-ball. Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

But shout out to Coby for last game. After the first quarter I was thinking "oh lord, this may end up being the worst game he has ever played". Thank goodness he promptly went into super-Coby mode and he and Demar took over the game.

[League Circles]

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

Coby is a better help defender. Zach is a better on-ball defender. Coby really can't stop anyone on-ball. Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

But shout out to Coby for last game. After the first quarter I was thinking "oh lord, this may end up being the worst game he has ever played". Thank goodness he promptly went into super-Coby mode and he and Demar took over the game.

I'd disagree on Zach being a better on ball defender. I personally think Coby is better than Zach at basically every skillset aspect of basketball, though in a number of aspects it's close. He's just a smarter, tougher, more competitive player with relatively similar physical ability. It shows in a number of advanced metrics. And the fact that he's been more durable, makes less than a third of what Zach makes, and is emerging into a leader instead of asking to be traded while playing terribly is why to whatever extent a team builds around a player, we should and will build around Coby.

[DuckIII]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

[sco]

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

Coby is a better help defender. Zach is a better on-ball defender. Coby really can't stop anyone on-ball. Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

But shout out to Coby for last game. After the first quarter I was thinking "oh lord, this may end up being the worst game he has ever played". Thank goodness he promptly went into super-Coby mode and he and Demar took over the game.

I'd disagree on Zach being a better on ball defender. I personally think Coby is better than Zach at basically every skillset aspect of basketball, though in a number of aspects it's close. He's just a smarter, tougher, more competitive player with relatively similar physical ability. It shows in a number of advanced metrics. And the fact that he's been more durable, makes less than a third of what Zach makes, and is emerging into a leader instead of asking to be traded while playing terribly is why to whatever extent a team builds around a player, we should and will build around Coby.

I agree that Coby is the better defender. Zach has shown the ability to be the better defender, but not the willingness to do it for extended stretches. That said, I don't think the debate is Zach vs. Coby. I think the debate is better focused on who should start next to Coby at SG and SF, with Ayo emerging, AC thriving defensively, Demar being reliable offensively but becoming a FA, and Pat wanting to play SF.