Coby White has leveled up

[League Circles]

Coby is a better help defender. Zach is a better on-ball defender. Coby really can't stop anyone on-ball. Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

But shout out to Coby for last game. After the first quarter I was thinking "oh lord, this may end up being the worst game he has ever played". Thank goodness he promptly went into super-Coby mode and he and Demar took over the game.

I'd disagree on Zach being a better on ball defender. I personally think Coby is better than Zach at basically every skillset aspect of basketball, though in a number of aspects it's close. He's just a smarter, tougher, more competitive player with relatively similar physical ability. It shows in a number of advanced metrics. And the fact that he's been more durable, makes less than a third of what Zach makes, and is emerging into a leader instead of asking to be traded while playing terribly is why to whatever extent a team builds around a player, we should and will build around Coby.

I agree that Coby is the better defender. Zach has shown the ability to be the better defender, but not the willingness to do it for extended stretches. That said, I don't think the debate is Zach vs. Coby. I think the debate is better focused on who should start next to Coby at SG and SF, with Ayo emerging, AC thriving defensively, Demar being reliable offensively but becoming a FA, and Pat wanting to play SF.

Indeed this is the big question. IMO, it's a no-brainer - we MUST move at least 2 of Zach, Vuc, Caruso and/or Carter before FA. We are too mediocre to have this many guys and dollars competing for minutes at the 1-3 positions while we're so deficient at the 4 and 5. We're going to have to use Caruso to move Vuc, Zach, and/or Carter IMO. That will make whatever the answer is fairly obvious.

[FriedRise]

Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

DeMar picks his spots to defend. If it's early in the game, he's not gonna do all that to prevent a bucket. To be fair, most offensive-minded stars play this way too, and none of them are leading the league in minutes played. I'm sure a big part of it is self preservation; it'd be incredibly bad for the team if he takes a bad tumble 30s in and has to deal with that pain the rest of the game.

Down the stretch though, that's when he ratchets it up. We've seen him put in the effort to make a stop, get a block, take a charge, or get a steal. Give these guys a clutch game and they'll turn into a championship contender lmao.

[sco]

I'd disagree on Zach being a better on ball defender. I personally think Coby is better than Zach at basically every skillset aspect of basketball, though in a number of aspects it's close. He's just a smarter, tougher, more competitive player with relatively similar physical ability. It shows in a number of advanced metrics. And the fact that he's been more durable, makes less than a third of what Zach makes, and is emerging into a leader instead of asking to be traded while playing terribly is why to whatever extent a team builds around a player, we should and will build around Coby.

I agree that Coby is the better defender. Zach has shown the ability to be the better defender, but not the willingness to do it for extended stretches. That said, I don't think the debate is Zach vs. Coby. I think the debate is better focused on who should start next to Coby at SG and SF, with Ayo emerging, AC thriving defensively, Demar being reliable offensively but becoming a FA, and Pat wanting to play SF.

Indeed this is the big question. IMO, it's a no-brainer - we MUST move at least 2 of Zach, Vuc, Caruso and/or Carter before FA. We are too mediocre to have this many guys and dollars competing for minutes at the 1-3 positions while we're so deficient at the 4 and 5. We're going to have to use Caruso to move Vuc, Zach, and/or Carter IMO. That will make whatever the answer is fairly obvious.

While I agree that attaching Caruso to such a deal would make it more possible. That said, I don't think the FO would do that because it is unlikely to bring back anything to fill the hole. I believe this because I think the only way such deals happen would be in concert with a clean sweep of Vuc, Zach, Ball and Demar such that we have enough cap space to use to bring back a max player, and I have a hard time imagining that happening under AK. It would likely mean his departure. He would be, from a job safety perspective, better off hoping for more improvement from within paired with something lucky happening with Ball.

[League Circles]

I agree that Coby is the better defender. Zach has shown the ability to be the better defender, but not the willingness to do it for extended stretches. That said, I don't think the debate is Zach vs. Coby. I think the debate is better focused on who should start next to Coby at SG and SF, with Ayo emerging, AC thriving defensively, Demar being reliable offensively but becoming a FA, and Pat wanting to play SF.

Indeed this is the big question. IMO, it's a no-brainer - we MUST move at least 2 of Zach, Vuc, Caruso and/or Carter before FA. We are too mediocre to have this many guys and dollars competing for minutes at the 1-3 positions while we're so deficient at the 4 and 5. We're going to have to use Caruso to move Vuc, Zach, and/or Carter IMO. That will make whatever the answer is fairly obvious.

While I agree that attaching Caruso to such a deal would make it more possible. That said, I don't think the FO would do that because it is unlikely to bring back anything to fill the hole. I believe this because I think the only way such deals happen would be in concert with a clean sweep of Vuc, Zach, Ball and Demar such that we have enough cap space to use to bring back a max player, and I have a hard time imagining that happening under AK. It would likely mean his departure. He would be, from a job safety perspective, better off hoping for more improvement from within paired with something lucky happening with Ball.

I think Caruso + Zach is very unlikely due to Zach's huge contract, but I think attaching Caruso to Vuc or Carter is much more realistic and should return a worthwhile 4/5 that would then balance things out so that Patrick, Coby, Zach and Demar can all play reasonable minutes in reasonable roles.

[GoBlue72391]

I read that after the Kings game the police were called to the Golden 1 Center for a reported break in. Turns out it was just Harrison Barnes looking for his dignity.

[GoBlue72391]

My final thoughts on the circular argument.

Coby leveled up.

He needs to do it again, or else we still don’t have a player worth building around.

Nothing comes easy in the NBA, so I’m not banking on it, but I’m feeling better about it after this year.

Coby’s ideal position is starting PG. If he can’t pan out into a ballpark 20 PER, 60% TS PG (which yes, is a lofty but achievable goal… Maxey, Brunson), then we don’t have a player worth building around.

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


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Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

I think Zach is a better on-ball defender than Coby by a pretty good margin, but Coby has better team defense/defensive IQ.

I've said it before, but Coby is not a guy you build around, he's a guy you build with.

[GoBlue72391]

Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

Coby is a better help defender. Zach is a better on-ball defender. Coby really can't stop anyone on-ball. Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

But shout out to Coby for last game. After the first quarter I was thinking "oh lord, this may end up being the worst game he has ever played". Thank goodness he promptly went into super-Coby mode and he and Demar took over the game.

I'd disagree on Zach being a better on ball defender. I personally think Coby is better than Zach at basically every skillset aspect of basketball, though in a number of aspects it's close. He's just a smarter, tougher, more competitive player with relatively similar physical ability. It shows in a number of advanced metrics. And the fact that he's been more durable, makes less than a third of what Zach makes, and is emerging into a leader instead of asking to be traded while playing terribly is why to whatever extent a team builds around a player, we should and will build around Coby.

No offense, but after you said you think Coby is a better defender than Kirk Hinrich was I don't think your opinions on defense carry a lot of weight. You can walk it back by saying what you actually said is that Coby defends PGs better than Kirk did, but that's just as ridiculous.

Coby does NOT have "relatively similiar phsyical ability," that's another ridiculous opinion.

Zach is an athletic freak, one of the most athletic/explosive players of the last decade, while Coby's athleticism and explosiveness are merely average or perhaps slightly above. Zach is 2 inches taller and has a wingspan that is 3 inches bigger than Coby's.I can't find Coby's vert, but Zach's is 46 and that is obviously much higher than Coby's.

This is gonna sound like I'm hating on Coby but I'm not, I'm just being realistic. I think Coby will eventually become a better all-around player than Zach is, if he hasn't already, but some of the stuff you've said is absurd.

[GoBlue72391]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Off-ball yes, on-ball no. As an overall defender Coby gets the nod though, because team defense is arguably more important than individual defense because if you're in the wrong spot it breaks down the team's whole defense with teammates scrambling to cover for the guy who messed up.

[Mk0]

I read that after the Kings game the police were called to the Golden 1 Center for a reported break in. Turns out it was just Harrison Barnes looking for his dignity.

The police sketch up of the culprit is actually animated. Pretty impressive how far technology has come.

[DuckIII]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Off-ball yes, on-ball no. As an overall defender Coby gets the nod though, because team defense is arguably more important than individual defense because if you're in the wrong spot it breaks down the team's whole defense with teammates scrambling to cover for the guy who messed up.

Zach is capable of and has displayed excellent on ball defense many times as a Bull. But it is a wildly selective process and far more often than not a complete afterthought to his efforts in games.

Coby is not capable of playing man defense to the heights Zach can, but he’s for more consistently reliable and adequate which is infinitely more important than having it come in bursts.

P.S. You are definitely right about Hinrich. He’s so much better than either Zach or Coby defensively - at everything - that his name belongs nowhere near this conversation except to snicker while mentioning its bizarre inclusion.

[Mk0]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Between contesting at the rim, taking charges (seriously I don't think Zach has ever taken a charge), steals, deflections, ROTATIONS, etc.. Coby is a much much better defender. We have seen Coby come off-ball and shut down drives by jumping the lane, getting position and threatening to take a charge. Some straight up Caruso stuff.

I used to dump on him for his defense but he has been fantastic this year. Even while leading the league in minutes.

Zach may have better lateral quickness but he doesn't use it.

[Mk0]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Off-ball yes, on-ball no. As an overall defender Coby gets the nod though, because team defense is arguably more important than individual defense because if you're in the wrong spot it breaks down the team's whole defense with teammates scrambling to cover for the guy who messed up.

Zach is capable of and has displayed excellent on ball defense many times as a Bull. But it is a wildly selective process and far more often than not a complete afterthought to his efforts in games.

Coby is not capable of playing man defense to the heights Zach can, but he’s for more consistently reliable and adequate which is infinitely more important than having it come in bursts.

This. Defense is all about effort (well not ALL, but it goes a long way). Coby has it and Zach 95% of the time does not.. or he'd be Ant Edwards-lite

[League Circles]

No offense, but after you said you think Coby is a better defender than Kirk Hinrich was I don't think your opinions on defense carry a lot of weight. You can walk it back by saying what you actually said is that Coby defends PGs better than Kirk did, but that's just as ridiculous.

Coby does NOT have "relatively similiar phsyical ability," that's another ridiculous opinion.

Zach is an athletic freak, one of the most athletic/explosive players of the last decade, while Coby's athleticism and explosiveness are merely average or perhaps slightly above. Zach is 2 inches taller and has a wingspan that is 3 inches bigger than Coby's.I can't find Coby's vert, but Zach's is 46 and that is obviously much higher than Coby's.

This is gonna sound like I'm hating on Coby but I'm not, I'm just being realistic. I think Coby will eventually become a better all-around player than Zach is, if he hasn't already, but some of the stuff you've said is absurd.

Glad you acknowledge that I did not in fact say Coby was a better defender than Kirk.

Zach is not 2 inches taller than Coby. Not sure their true heights but they're both listed at 6-5 lol.

Zach is certainly a significantly better leaper than Coby, but IMO Coby seems stronger and IMO is just as fast/quick on the ground including changing directions. Yes Zach has the hops advantage no doubt, but he doesn't use it that much.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has. And he's way younger, way cheaper, and way healthier right now. I think they can coexist, but if it's with Demar also, then at least Vuc has to go.

We don't have to pick changing the whole roster vs pure continuity. We need to get creative about roles, contracts, and trades.

[GoBlue72391]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Off-ball yes, on-ball no. As an overall defender Coby gets the nod though, because team defense is arguably more important than individual defense because if you're in the wrong spot it breaks down the team's whole defense with teammates scrambling to cover for the guy who messed up.

Zach is capable of and has displayed excellent on ball defense many times as a Bull. But it is a wildly selective process and far more often than not a complete afterthought to his efforts in games.

Coby is not capable of playing man defense to the heights Zach can, but he’s for more consistently reliable and adequate which is infinitely more important than having it come in bursts.

P.S. You are definitely right about Hinrich. He’s so much better than either Zach or Coby defensively - at everything - that his name belongs nowhere near this conversation except to snicker while mentioning its bizarre inclusion.

That's fair.

[Stratmaster]

Can't really say with Demar because he rarely defends. Bwahahahah.

DeMar picks his spots to defend. If it's early in the game, he's not gonna do all that to prevent a bucket. To be fair, most offensive-minded stars play this way too, and none of them are leading the league in minutes played. I'm sure a big part of it is self preservation; it'd be incredibly bad for the team if he takes a bad tumble 30s in and has to deal with that pain the rest of the game.

Down the stretch though, that's when he ratchets it up. We've seen him put in the effort to make a stop, get a block, take a charge, or get a steal. Give these guys a clutch game and they'll turn into a championship contender lmao.

Agree. That's exactly why I put it that way.

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[GoBlue72391]

No offense, but after you said you think Coby is a better defender than Kirk Hinrich was I don't think your opinions on defense carry a lot of weight. You can walk it back by saying what you actually said is that Coby defends PGs better than Kirk did, but that's just as ridiculous.

Coby does NOT have "relatively similiar phsyical ability," that's another ridiculous opinion.

Zach is an athletic freak, one of the most athletic/explosive players of the last decade, while Coby's athleticism and explosiveness are merely average or perhaps slightly above. Zach is 2 inches taller and has a wingspan that is 3 inches bigger than Coby's.I can't find Coby's vert, but Zach's is 46 and that is obviously much higher than Coby's.

This is gonna sound like I'm hating on Coby but I'm not, I'm just being realistic. I think Coby will eventually become a better all-around player than Zach is, if he hasn't already, but some of the stuff you've said is absurd.

Glad you acknowledge that I did not in fact say Coby was a better defender than Kirk.

Zach is not 2 inches taller than Coby. Not sure their true heights but they're both listed at 6-5 lol.

Zach is certainly a significantly better leaper than Coby, but IMO Coby seems stronger and IMO is just as fast/quick on the ground including changing directions. Yes Zach has the hops advantage no doubt, but he doesn't use it that much.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has. And he's way younger, way cheaper, and way healthier right now. I think they can coexist, but if it's with Demar also, then at least Vuc has to go.

We don't have to pick changing the whole roster vs pure continuity. We need to get creative about roles, contracts, and trades.

You said Coby is better at defending PGs than Kirk was, which is just as absurd as saying he's the better defender outright. There is no world where Coby (or Zach, for that matter) is better than Kirk at anything defensively. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

At the combine, Zach measured 6'4.5" without shoes and 6'5.75" with shoes. Coby measured 6'3.5" without and 6'4.75" with. So Zach is an inch taller and has a wingspan advantage of 6'8.25" while Coby's is 6'5". The 1 inch height different isn't very significant, but that extra length is.

Coby and Zach are both fast with the ball. I'd even give a slight edge to Coby, but Zach is a significantly better leaper, more explosive, and has an extra 3 inches of length and is an inch taller. I don't think either player is particularly strong so maybe call it a wash or slight nod to Coby. Even with that, Zach is head and shoulders the superior athlete.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has.

Why can't you just give Coby his due without making ridiculous statements? This is patently false and reeks of recency bias. If you want to say Coby right now is better than Zach is right now, then fair, but to say the current Coby is better than Zach has ever been? That's a joke.

Coby per 36 this season: 19/5/5 with a 58 TS% and 15 PER

Zach's best season per 36: 28/5/5 with a 63 TS% and 22 PER

[Stratmaster]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

That just isn't remotely true. Coby can barely guard a garbage can one on one, and it is actually one of Lavine's strengths. (Guarding a garbage can, I mean. No, seriously...on ball defense).

Have you been watching the games? (That isn't like a "do you even watch the games barb". It's a serious question because a lot of people say they have stopped watching games)

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[Stratmaster]

And to clarify my position the same way, and then I will shut up and agree to disagree.

I haven't seen anything from Coby that I haven't seen before in his hot spurts.

That isn't meant to be negative. I've said many times I think Coby could be 6th man of the year material.

IMHO Coby is the essence of what we call a "combo guard".

I have never even entertained the idea of building around Coby White. I don't understand where that would come from. We couldn't build around 2 consistent 25/5/5 .600 TS guys, more or less around 1 streaky 19/5/5 .577 TS% guy who, even while having his best of 5 seasons, hasn't gotten to a 15 PER.

But I hope you have the correct version.


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Well, "building around" a guy has never really had any meaning IMO, but with Coby, the obvious reason is his very low salary. It allows us to add more talent "around" him.

And Coby is simply a much better defender and also less selfish offensively than Demar or Zach.

But again, "build around" has no actual meaning other than "keep".

I think Zach is a better on-ball defender than Coby by a pretty good margin, but Coby has better team defense/defensive IQ.

I've said it before, but Coby is not a guy you build around, he's a guy you build with.

Exactly. I don't even know where Coby being better on-ball could possibly come from.

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[Stratmaster]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Off-ball yes, on-ball no. As an overall defender Coby gets the nod though, because team defense is arguably more important than individual defense because if you're in the wrong spot it breaks down the team's whole defense with teammates scrambling to cover for the guy who messed up.

I agree here also. No matter how much better an on ball defender Zach is, the best scorers in the league are going to get past any player as a one on one defender.

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[Stratmaster]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Between contesting at the rim, taking charges (seriously I don't think Zach has ever taken a charge), steals, deflections, ROTATIONS, etc.. Coby is a much much better defender. We have seen Coby come off-ball and shut down drives by jumping the lane, getting position and threatening to take a charge. Some straight up Caruso stuff.

I used to dump on him for his defense but he has been fantastic this year. Even while leading the league in minutes.

Zach may have better lateral quickness but he doesn't use it.

Just to be clear on my position, not a single person has said Zach is a better overall defender

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