Coby White has leveled up

[GoBlue72391]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Between contesting at the rim, taking charges (seriously I don't think Zach has ever taken a charge), steals, deflections, ROTATIONS, etc.. Coby is a much much better defender. We have seen Coby come off-ball and shut down drives by jumping the lane, getting position and threatening to take a charge. Some straight up Caruso stuff.

I used to dump on him for his defense but he has been fantastic this year. Even while leading the league in minutes.

Zach may have better lateral quickness but he doesn't use it.

Saying Coby's defense has been fantastic and vaguely comparing him to Caruso is way too far IMO. He's made huge strides defensively over the past couple years, but he's at best a slightly above-average defender, and we still see his defense getting exploited at times and we saw that a couple games ago. He's not a defensive liability anymore, but he's not a standout either.

If everyone were healthy (minus Lonzo) and we wanted to put our best defensive lineup on the floor I don't think Coby makes it:

Ayo, Caruso, Pat, Craig, and Drummond would be my 5. I'd put Dalen above Coby too due to his length, versatility, and energy/motor. Again, not saying he's a bad defender, he's definitely solid.

Saying he's a more consistent and better overall defender than Zach is fair, though.

[Stratmaster]

No offense, but after you said you think Coby is a better defender than Kirk Hinrich was I don't think your opinions on defense carry a lot of weight. You can walk it back by saying what you actually said is that Coby defends PGs better than Kirk did, but that's just as ridiculous.

Coby does NOT have "relatively similiar phsyical ability," that's another ridiculous opinion.

Zach is an athletic freak, one of the most athletic/explosive players of the last decade, while Coby's athleticism and explosiveness are merely average or perhaps slightly above. Zach is 2 inches taller and has a wingspan that is 3 inches bigger than Coby's.I can't find Coby's vert, but Zach's is 46 and that is obviously much higher than Coby's.

This is gonna sound like I'm hating on Coby but I'm not, I'm just being realistic. I think Coby will eventually become a better all-around player than Zach is, if he hasn't already, but some of the stuff you've said is absurd.

Glad you acknowledge that I did not in fact say Coby was a better defender than Kirk.

Zach is not 2 inches taller than Coby. Not sure their true heights but they're both listed at 6-5 lol.

Zach is certainly a significantly better leaper than Coby, but IMO Coby seems stronger and IMO is just as fast/quick on the ground including changing directions. Yes Zach has the hops advantage no doubt, but he doesn't use it that much.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has. And he's way younger, way cheaper, and way healthier right now. I think they can coexist, but if it's with Demar also, then at least Vuc has to go.

We don't have to pick changing the whole roster vs pure continuity. We need to get creative about roles, contracts, and trades.

Coby has not even come close to playing as good as "Zach ever has" yet.

This is why people end up whining about "why can't you just let us enjoy that Coby is now so great". Because people make silly claims inflating his play level, and when corrected, we all sound like haters.

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[DuckIII]

We?

[League Circles]

No offense, but after you said you think Coby is a better defender than Kirk Hinrich was I don't think your opinions on defense carry a lot of weight. You can walk it back by saying what you actually said is that Coby defends PGs better than Kirk did, but that's just as ridiculous.

Coby does NOT have "relatively similiar phsyical ability," that's another ridiculous opinion.

Zach is an athletic freak, one of the most athletic/explosive players of the last decade, while Coby's athleticism and explosiveness are merely average or perhaps slightly above. Zach is 2 inches taller and has a wingspan that is 3 inches bigger than Coby's.I can't find Coby's vert, but Zach's is 46 and that is obviously much higher than Coby's.

This is gonna sound like I'm hating on Coby but I'm not, I'm just being realistic. I think Coby will eventually become a better all-around player than Zach is, if he hasn't already, but some of the stuff you've said is absurd.

Glad you acknowledge that I did not in fact say Coby was a better defender than Kirk.

Zach is not 2 inches taller than Coby. Not sure their true heights but they're both listed at 6-5 lol.

Zach is certainly a significantly better leaper than Coby, but IMO Coby seems stronger and IMO is just as fast/quick on the ground including changing directions. Yes Zach has the hops advantage no doubt, but he doesn't use it that much.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has. And he's way younger, way cheaper, and way healthier right now. I think they can coexist, but if it's with Demar also, then at least Vuc has to go.

We don't have to pick changing the whole roster vs pure continuity. We need to get creative about roles, contracts, and trades.

You said Coby is better at defending PGs than Kirk was, which is just as absurd as saying he's the better defender outright. There is no world where Coby (or Zach, for that matter) is better than Kirk at anything defensively. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

At the combine, Zach measured 6'4.5" without shoes and 6'5.75" with shoes. Coby measured 6'3.5" without and 6'4.75" with. So Zach is an inch taller and has a wingspan advantage of 6'8.25" while Coby's is 6'5". The 1 inch height different isn't very significant, but that extra length is.

Coby and Zach are both fast with the ball. I'd even give a slight edge to Coby, but Zach is a significantly better leaper, more explosive, and has an extra 3 inches of length and is an inch taller. I don't think either player is particularly strong so maybe call it a wash or slight nod to Coby. Even with that, Zach is head and shoulders the superior athlete.

Coby has definitely played better this year than Zach ever has.

Why can't you just give Coby his due without making ridiculous statements? This is patently false and reeks of recency bias. If you want to say Coby right now is better than Zach is right now, then fair, but to say the current Coby is better than Zach has ever been? That's a joke.

Coby per 36 this season: 19/5/5 with a 58 TS% and 15 PER

Zach's best season per 36: 28/5/5 with a 63 TS% and 22 PER

In fact I did not say Coby was better than Kirk at defending PGs. I said it was unclear to me, but still gave Kirk the nod overall defensively (despite Kirk fouling a lot more).

I think Coby is better than Zach has been based on eye test and stats other than PER, TS% and per 36 numbers. For example comparing Coby to Zach's best year (which was just 58 games), Zach turned it over a lot more, fouled more, played worse defense IMO, and had a much worse on/off number. But mostly eye test. If PER is important does that mean Drummond is our best player?

I think Zach has very poor shot selection. He takes a lot of his shots so early in the shot clock that he surely prevents some higher % chances that could have developed. That, and poor help defense are Zach's big flaws, which is the biggest reason he's never really won anything.

[League Circles]

Coby is a significantly better on and off ball defender than Zach, today. Coby used to be a liability defensively but he has improved significantly.

We can debate personal opinions all we want, but if we had a poll among Bulls fans Coby would win overwhelmingly on defense. He’s actually pretty reliably solid these days.

Between contesting at the rim, taking charges (seriously I don't think Zach has ever taken a charge), steals, deflections, ROTATIONS, etc.. Coby is a much much better defender. We have seen Coby come off-ball and shut down drives by jumping the lane, getting position and threatening to take a charge. Some straight up Caruso stuff.

I used to dump on him for his defense but he has been fantastic this year. Even while leading the league in minutes.

Zach may have better lateral quickness but he doesn't use it.

Saying Coby's defense has been fantastic and vaguely comparing him to Caruso is way too far IMO. He's made huge strides defensively over the past couple years, but he's at best a slightly above-average defender, and we still see his defense getting exploited at times and we saw that a couple games ago. He's not a defensive liability anymore, but he's not a standout either.

If everyone were healthy (minus Lonzo) and we wanted to put our best defensive lineup on the floor I don't think Coby makes it:

Ayo, Caruso, Pat, Craig, and Drummond would be my 5. I'd put Dalen above Coby too due to his length, versatility, and energy/motor. Again, not saying he's a bad defender, he's definitely solid.

Saying he's a more consistent and better overall defender than Zach is fair, though.

I agree with that best defensive lineup, but that's because Ball and Caruso are simply as good as it gets for defensive guards. But Coby is a LOT better than Demar, Zach, even Carter IMO, and better than a ton of guards we've had in the past. He's def above average on D. Not high level, but very solid. And that's half the game.

[Mk0]

Between contesting at the rim, taking charges (seriously I don't think Zach has ever taken a charge), steals, deflections, ROTATIONS, etc.. Coby is a much much better defender. We have seen Coby come off-ball and shut down drives by jumping the lane, getting position and threatening to take a charge. Some straight up Caruso stuff.

I used to dump on him for his defense but he has been fantastic this year. Even while leading the league in minutes.

Zach may have better lateral quickness but he doesn't use it.

Saying Coby's defense has been fantastic and vaguely comparing him to Caruso is way too far IMO. He's made huge strides defensively over the past couple years, but he's at best a slightly above-average defender, and we still see his defense getting exploited at times and we saw that a couple games ago. He's not a defensive liability anymore, but he's not a standout either.

If everyone were healthy (minus Lonzo) and we wanted to put our best defensive lineup on the floor I don't think Coby makes it:

Ayo, Caruso, Pat, Craig, and Drummond would be my 5. I'd put Dalen above Coby too due to his length, versatility, and energy/motor. Again, not saying he's a bad defender, he's definitely solid.

Saying he's a more consistent and better overall defender than Zach is fair, though.

I agree with that best defensive lineup, but that's because Ball and Caruso are simply as good as it gets for defensive guards. But Coby is a LOT better than Demar, Zach, even Carter IMO, and better than a ton of guards we've had in the past. He's def above average on D. Not high level, but very solid. And that's half the game.

Jumping the lane and taking a charge is one of the 75 things Caruso does at an elite defensive level. Saying Coby has learned to do the same is not 'way too far'.

[Stratmaster]

We?

Yep

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[bledredwine]

Over the last few years, I used to say that Coby reminded me of a "Boston Celtic" type of player and quite a few posters were confused by that.
I think that it's apparent now - He is not a superstar, but can certainly score the ball and provides solid defense.

That's why I was happy to see his development. This was the vision. I don't think that he could ever make the leap to superstardom, but I'm quite happy with this "Boston Celtic" type of level.

[PJSteven22]

Coby’s been making a strong case for going back to the bench recently. He needs to get it together.

For who?

Billy moronically starts all our best guards, so a logical swap would have to come from a bigger position. But, I don't really want to see Coby benched. I'm just pointing out that his 1st Q no-shows are piling up. Choosing when to let the game come to him vs forcing the action is a tightrope act, and he has room for improvement. Recently, Coby’s default has been to wait until after the 1st Q to make his mark on the game. That's not what starters are expected to do especially considering that this team typically loses the 1st Q.

We a small team. It’s a roster construction issue.

[drosestruts]

Chris Paul endorsing Coby for MIP - the campaign for Coby is just starting.

[WindyCityBorn]

Over the last few years, I used to say that Coby reminded me of a "Boston Celtic" type of player and quite a few posters were confused by that.
I think that it's apparent now - He is not a superstar, but can certainly score the ball and provides solid defense.

That's why I was happy to see his development. This was the vision. I don't think that he could ever make the leap to superstardom, but I'm quite happy with this "Boston Celtic" type of level.

Almost no player becomes a superstar. Right now he is a borderline all-star and that’s amazing considering his trajectory before this season.

[WindyCityBorn]

Chris Paul endorsing Coby for MIP - the campaign for Coby is just starting.

Chris Paul is really close with Coby so that is not surprising. I think he deserves it though.

[bledredwine]

Over the last few years, I used to say that Coby reminded me of a "Boston Celtic" type of player and quite a few posters were confused by that.
I think that it's apparent now - He is not a superstar, but can certainly score the ball and provides solid defense.

That's why I was happy to see his development. This was the vision. I don't think that he could ever make the leap to superstardom, but I'm quite happy with this "Boston Celtic" type of level.

Almost no player becomes a superstar. Right now he is a borderline all-star and that’s amazing considering his trajectory before this season.

Exactly, and that’s what I meant by a Boston Celtic type. This is what I was shooting and hoping for.

[jordanwilliams6]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

[Stratmaster]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

Lately, Coby's level jumping has been more a downward leveling off to his historical norms. I'm not going to overreact to his last 15 games, like people did to his roughly 15-game surge. He's a passable starting guard, but I still think his best role is as a microwave scorer.

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[jordanwilliams6]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

Lately, Coby's level jumping has been more a downward leveling off to his historical norms. I'm not going to overreact to his last 15 games, like people did to his roughly 15-game surge. He's a passable starting guard, but I still think his best role is as a microwave scorer.

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Strongly disagree. To me, Coby's floor is now a 20/5/5 point guard on elite shooting with solid playmaking and defense.

The next step will be ironing out his inconsistencies.

[Jcool0]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

Lately, Coby's level jumping has been more a downward leveling off to his historical norms. I'm not going to overreact to his last 15 games, like people did to his roughly 15-game surge. He's a passable starting guard, but I still think his best role is as a microwave scorer.

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He's a 20/5/5 guy which is more then a passable starting guard. You're to hung up on the 11/3/3 guy he was the last two seasons.

[MrSparkle]

MIP race should be interesting. The 5 best candidates have a month to boost their stock, as they'll be really important to their teams' run towards the play-in/playoffs (Coby, Maxey, Kuminga, Sengun). Cade improved quite a bit too. Personally I think it's an even race.

[Stratmaster]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

Lately, Coby's level jumping has been more a downward leveling off to his historical norms. I'm not going to overreact to his last 15 games, like people did to his roughly 15-game surge. He's a passable starting guard, but I still think his best role is as a microwave scorer.

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Strongly disagree. To me, Coby's floor is now a 20/5/5 point guard on elite shooting with solid playmaking and defense.

The next step will be ironing out his inconsistencies.

20/5/5 always was his floor.

Coby started his 2nd season at 20 years old and had a per 36 of 17.4/5/6. This season he is 19/5/5.

As far as full time PG, I don't see it.

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[Stratmaster]

Coby in my mind is now a Jamal Murray level player. He could easily slot in place of Murray on the Nuggets and they wouldn’t miss a beat.

The challenge for Coby is does he have another level? Basically can he replicate what Murray does in the playoffs? The floor is regular season Murray and the ceiling is playoff Murray.

Lately, Coby's level jumping has been more a downward leveling off to his historical norms. I'm not going to overreact to his last 15 games, like people did to his roughly 15-game surge. He's a passable starting guard, but I still think his best role is as a microwave scorer.

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He's a 20/5/5 guy which is more then a passable starting guard. You're to hung up on the 11/3/3 guy he was the last two seasons.

No. I'm not. But thanks for weighing in. Again, Coby was a 17/5/6 guy the last time he was a starter. In his 2nd season. At age 20.

I'm not down on him. He has always been that guy. A passable starter who would be better in a 6th man role if you had 2 high quality guards.

19 points on 15 shot attempts isn't what people are making it out to be. A .580 TS% and dropping, with a sub 15 PER is not an offensive juggernaut.

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