Around The NBA : 2023-24 Season #2

[Michael Jackson]

Also go Thibs go! Playing Hart 48 minutes last night!

[Ice Man]

Orlando's try hard style doesn't work as well in the playoff when everyone else is trying hard too.

Yep. Give Orlando's players and coaching staff credit, they brought it night after night. But in the playoffs talent takes over. And Orlando doesn't have any top-level guys. (I get Duck's point; the Magic is very young and in a few years perhaps it will indeed have top-level players. But they're not there yet.)

[jc23]

Denver is better then the lakers, but you could say the Lakers have been the better team for the majority of this series this far. Id love to see Denver come out in game 3 and step on the Lakers throats; destroy their hope.

[TheSuzerain]

I think small ball is pretty much dead.

The whole thing is teams are now replicating the Golden State approach with bigger players.

[sco]

I think small ball is pretty much dead.

The whole thing is teams are now replicating the Golden State approach with bigger players.

Yeah, the number of skilled bigs in the game has grown.

Embiid and Joker are may be the two of the top 5 most skilled bigs of all time. And kudos to BroLo for reinventing his game after many thought he was done. There are also guys like KAT and others.

I would begrudgingly admit that AK was conceptually right with his Vuc trade (just proved bad in practice), if Vuc was a 40% 3pt shooter (and Ball didn't go down for 2 years+), AK is being hailed as a hero instead of a villian.

[drosestruts]

Such a big deal was made of the Bulls hiring that shooting coach Patton.

Coby White - 37.6% (+0.4%)
Ayo Dosunmu - 40.3% (+9.1%)
Alex Caruso - 40.8% (+4.4%)
Nikola Vucevic - 29.4% (-5.5%)
Patrick Williams - 39.9% (-1.6%)
Zach LaVine - 34.9% (-2.6%)
Jevon Carter - 32.9% (-9.2%)

obviously great improvements from Ayo and Caruso but what the heck happened to Vuc and Carter??

[ChiefILL53]

Such a big deal was made of the Bulls hiring that shooting coach Patton.

Coby White - 37.6% (+0.4%)
Ayo Dosunmu - 40.3% (+9.1%)
Alex Caruso - 40.8% (+4.4%)
Nikola Vucevic - 29.4% (-5.5%)
Patrick Williams - 39.9% (-1.6%)
Zach LaVine - 34.9% (-2.6%)
Jevon Carter - 32.9% (-9.2%)

obviously great improvements from Ayo and Caruso but what the heck happened to Vuc and Carter??

I dont think Vuc was ever really a shooter like that. He had a surge around the time we traded for him. Now Carter...I have no idea. Early in the year when I was still watching he was letting it fly, and then it got to a point where he was pump faking and then transitioning into a contested shot.

[Dresden]

Great seeing the Lakers get beat after being up 20. I'd love to see Lebron get swept out of the playoffs.

[Ice Man]

I think small ball is pretty much dead.

I saw a clip with MPJ (one of the growing number of players who do interviews/analysis while still active, he is very good) interviewing Denver's owner. He was talking about how when they landed Jokic that Nikola was extremely out of favor, because the entire league was rushing to play GS style small ball. An example of how experts, whether NBA GMs or in other fields, can at times become sheep.

[Ice Man]

Such a big deal was made of the Bulls hiring that shooting coach Patton.

Coby White - 37.6% (+0.4%)
Ayo Dosunmu - 40.3% (+9.1%)
Alex Caruso - 40.8% (+4.4%)
Nikola Vucevic - 29.4% (-5.5%)
Patrick Williams - 39.9% (-1.6%)
Zach LaVine - 34.9% (-2.6%)
Jevon Carter - 32.9% (-9.2%)

obviously great improvements from Ayo and Caruso but what the heck happened to Vuc and Carter??

Those numbers look exactly like what the numbers would look like if you had given the Chicago Bulls a shooting placebo, instead of coach Patton. Which is probably what occurred. If shooting coaches could actually do what they claim to do, they would be hugely valuable and would be paid far more than they currently are.

[Ice Man]

The NBA sure has become lenient about "incidental contact." In the Lakers game, MPJ outright smacked DLo in the head, no foul called even after video review. It's OK to hit somebody in the head while swinging at the ball, if it's accidental. Ditto in the Philly game for Kyle Lowry on, well, I don't remember who. But Lowry clearly gave him a forearm upside the head. But hey, he got the ball too.

Also, you can pretty much just murder somebody if you block their shot, because after the ball is touched if you crash into them and send them flying into the basket post it is "incidental contact" because the play ended after the ball was touched. Yet if you make a pass or shot as an attacking player and then run into a defender who is standing still, that is not incidental contact, even though the ball is no longer in the vicinity. That is a charge. It's strange to have the rule enforced one way on blocks but another way after the ball is passed or shot.

[MrSparkle]

Such a big deal was made of the Bulls hiring that shooting coach Patton.

Coby White - 37.6% (+0.4%)
Ayo Dosunmu - 40.3% (+9.1%)
Alex Caruso - 40.8% (+4.4%)
Nikola Vucevic - 29.4% (-5.5%)
Patrick Williams - 39.9% (-1.6%)
Zach LaVine - 34.9% (-2.6%)
Jevon Carter - 32.9% (-9.2%)

obviously great improvements from Ayo and Caruso but what the heck happened to Vuc and Carter??

Those numbers look exactly like what the numbers would look like if you had given the Chicago Bulls a shooting placebo, instead of coach Patton. Which is probably what occurred. If shooting coaches could actually do what they claim to do, they would be hugely valuable and would be paid far more than they currently are.

So the truth is that Ayo, Coby, Caruso and Demar improved their 3P% and takes. Each guy increased volume - thank god. I've been ranting for years to the internet forests about the simple concept of adding volume; small decimal increase in makes can make a huge difference in percentage and defensive coverage (unless you keep getting colder - cough, Vuc).

Coby finally made it to 7 attempts per game, after a decline since his first 2 seasons. I don't really buy that the shooting coach helped that much. It takes multiple off-seasons for that kind of training to pay off. But the volumes? Simple fix for a simple problem in a league where most scrubs launched more 3Ps than our good shooters.

Conceptually, the team gave 23% usage to Vuc, along with 16 FGAs, while the fella averaged 48% FG and 29% from 3Ps. Somehow our pace dropped tremendously to 28th, even though it was a point of focus. I wonder if having the least efficient high-usage scoring option in the NBA had anything to do with it?

I'll say with certainty- Vuc sets one of the worst screens in the NBA amongst offensive bigs. It's a soft, half-assed screen. It best sets him up for a pick and pop midrange shot, as no one respects his 3P range, and they aren't scared of him rolling to the rim. If AK can eat his shame and move Vuc (or tell Billy it's OK to bench him), then we'd certainly be shooting better from the arc. The guy kills spacing, rebounding, defense... Anything else? I can't stand watching him play anymore. He belongs in the Greek league. Jokic's Nuggets don't chuck as many 3P looks cause so many PnRs end up with Jokic handling the ball inside the line. Difference is this guy is able to make a magic bucket or pass from any spot on the floor. Vuc's garbage repertoire is a mid-% wide open pick-n-pop and a soft hook or push shot.

But besides that, we don't have somebody penetrating the rim regularly. Coby was virtuosic for a month or two, until he wasn't. He was virtuosic against a deflated, terrible Hawks defense; he went limp against the short-handed (but well-tuned) Heat.

The fact is that AK needs to sign and trade for guys who will make 3Ps reliably (not Craig), and who have size (not Jevon). Not academic projects (Terry, Phillips). He needs to dump Vuc out the primary lineup. And he needs to finally target a "primary playmaker" in this draft or FA, and stop beating the bush. He had many options in the 2020 draft (probably/ultimately could've traded up for LaMelo, down for Hali, taken the gamble on Deni or Hayes).

I think Cody Williams, Collier, Ja'Kobe, Holland, Carter, McCain need to be scouted heavily. Get your potential playmaker in the draft. Get your 3P specialists in free agency (yes- you have to overpay). Try to get that shot blocker via trade- easiest type of player to acquire, the athletic rim protector on a losing team with no PG. When they see an injury or two, their teams suck, guys like Turner, Valanciunas, Porzingis, J. Allen almost can't be given away.

[Ice Man]

So the truth is that Ayo, Coby, Caruso and Demar improved their 3P% and takes.

That's one truth. Another truth is that the 3 point percentages for Coby and DDR were only the tiniest bit better in 2024 than the year before, and were higher in both cases in 2022. Overall, the Bulls went from #16 in the league in 2023 with a 36.1 percentage to #20 in the league in 2024 with a 35.8 percentage.

If I were Coach Carter, I would not be asking for a raise.

[MrSparkle]

So the truth is that Ayo, Coby, Caruso and Demar improved their 3P% and takes.

That's one truth. Another truth is that the 3 point percentages for Coby and DDR were only the tiniest bit better in 2024 than the year before, and were higher in both cases in 2022. Overall, the Bulls went from #16 in the league in 2023 with a 36.1 percentage to #20 in the league in 2024 with a 35.8 percentage.

If I were Coach Carter, I would not be asking for a raise.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise that the shooting coach is entirely overblown.

But this said, I'm doubling down on the fact that if he actually has an impact, we'd see it in a 3-5 year timeframe sooner than 1-year. If Bulls trend up to being top-15 in shooting regardless of roster, that'd be indicative that something's working. In the meantime, I think tiniest 3P% improvements are OK, and I'm not sure Coby's tiny 2y decline is worth scrutiny. He went from being a deep bench spot-up shooter most the season to being the full-time PG. The minute jump alone was huge, let alone defensive attention.

[2weekswithpay]

Relevant article on shooting.

TLDR: It takes a large number of 3pt attempts (750) to determine how good of a shooter someone is. It's possible but unlikely that Vuc suddenly became an under 30% 3pt shooter after being just under league average in the previous 5 seasons combined. Carter is also probably better at shooting than his percentage indicates this season. Players can have down shooting seasons, Duncan Robinson being a recent example.

[dice]

I think small ball is pretty much dead.

The whole thing is teams are now replicating the Golden State approach with bigger players.

ironic given that GS was elite playing smallball

[dice]

All time choke by Maxey and Lowry at the end there.

poor man's version of the reggie miller choke game. same building!

[dice]

The 76ers, especially Embid and Nurse crying about the refs after that game is really really rich.

As when Lowry hit a Knick upside the head while knocking the ball away from him, and after review that was called no foul, incidental contact? Man, that was a gift to the Sixers, and at a critical part of the game, too.

and maxey pushed off to get open in the first place

lowry short-armed a FT before all that too

lowry, maxey AND nurse failed to get an obvious TO called there

[SalmonsSuperfan]

Such a big deal was made of the Bulls hiring that shooting coach Patton.

Coby White - 37.6% (+0.4%)
Ayo Dosunmu - 40.3% (+9.1%)
Alex Caruso - 40.8% (+4.4%)
Nikola Vucevic - 29.4% (-5.5%)
Patrick Williams - 39.9% (-1.6%)
Zach LaVine - 34.9% (-2.6%)
Jevon Carter - 32.9% (-9.2%)

obviously great improvements from Ayo and Caruso but what the heck happened to Vuc and Carter??

thanks for putting those numbers together. I think this is a trend you can find on both Reinsdorf teams, that players become worse at their jobs the moment they sign with Chicago. this has been going on for a while, but is there a more obvious trend than Vuc dropping from 40 to 29% on 3s? The Bulls and White Sox are both failed organizations that don't know the first thing about teaching young (or old) players how to play. they expect 19-year-olds to be solid pros who just need "game experience" the second after they enter the NBA, they do nothing to develop them. I've stopped blaming young players for their poor performance, they just either draft the wrong guys or set them back by not teaching them anything.
I personally think that JR-corp teaches young players on the wrong, outdated material, that these kids are set up for failure from the very start because playing sports professionally is very difficult and requires constant adjustment and the front office/management people that get hired are way out of their element and don't know what they're doing. Reinsdorf himself is an idiot but somehow hires even dumber people to work for him. I think that's a sign of insecurity, being dumb and hiring people even dumber than you to work for you

[Jcool0]

Sun's are going to get swept